LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL
Thursday, 15th October, 1992
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The President (The Hon. Max Frederick Willis) took the chair at 10.30 a.m.
The President offered the Prayers.
NEW SOUTH WALES CRIME COMMISSION (AMENDMENT) BILL
Bill read a third time.
AUCTIONEERS AND AGENTS (AMENDMENT) BILL (No.2)
Bill read a third time.
PETITIONS
Serious Traffic Offence Penalties
Petition praying that laws relating to road accident fatality or injury be re-evaluated, received from the Hon. Patricia Forsythe.
Child Protection
Petition praying that the House support the introduction and passage of the Protection of Children from Indecent Material Bill, received from the Hon. Dr Marlene Goldsmith.
Abortion
Petition praying that because of community support for the continued availability of abortions and a woman's right to choose abortion and the continued availability of counselling services for abortion clinics, the House not support any restriction of existing abortion services, received from the Hon. Ann Symonds.
Forestry Commission
Petition praying that the Forestry Commission of New South Wales be reformed in accordance with the recommendations of the Public Accounts Committee and that the House urge the Government to act immediately for the good of our environmental heritage and the health of the plantation timber industry, received from the Hon. R. S. L. Jones.
Cat Desexing
Petition praying that because wildlife is threatened by predatory feral cats, and because unrestricted breeding of cats results in their destruction, starvation, injury and susceptibility to disease, there should be compulsory desexing of all domestic cats other than those with registered breeders, received from the Hon. R. S. L. Jones.
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STANDING COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL ISSUES
Report: Juvenile Justice
Debate resumed from 24th September.
The Hon. J. F. RYAN [10.40]: When this debate was adjourned I was midway through the remarks that I wanted to make. I dealt with the sad relationship which unfortunately exists between the general community and the Aboriginal community and how that has an effect on policing issues within the Aboriginal community. I thank honourable members who have made complimentary remarks about the things I said. I drew attention to the fact that the Aboriginal people feel displaced from mainstream Australian society. To some extent it is no surprise that their children run astray, and that issue needs to be addressed. I recently had the opportunity to visit New Zealand to look not only at its juvenile justice system but at how it deals with the relationship between its European community and its Maori community. I noticed in New Zealand that, probably as a result of the Maori community being far more numerous in New Zealand than the Aboriginal community in Australia, there is a great deal of recognition of the Maori community. Public buildings - whether they be police stations, schools, court houses or Parliament House - had prominent examples of Maori art and culture exhibited. Almost every place name in New Zealand -
The PRESIDENT: Order! The level of conversation in the House is far too high; I can hardly hear the honourable member.
The Hon. J. F. RYAN: The Maori community in New Zealand is far more recognised in public buildings than is the Aboriginal community in Australia. Every New Zealand child, European or Maori, is aware of the Maori culture through music, art and song. I suspect that few members of the Australian community would know much Aboriginal music or be able to accurately recount an Aboriginal legend.
The Hon. Franca Arena: Speak for yourself.
The Hon. J. F. RYAN: My remarks are not meant disparagingly towards members of this Chamber; I am referring to the general community. There is a lack of knowledge of the basic issues of our Aboriginal culture; it is our heritage as much as it is theirs. We ought to be aware of Aboriginal music, art and culture. No matter where I went in New Zealand - whether it was a pub, a school or a football match - the people would know a Maori song, be able to do a Maori haka or recount a Maori legend. Australians lack familiarity with those aspects of our Aboriginal culture. That is one example of how the Aboriginal culture will have difficulty in trying to make contact with the mainstream Australian community. We have so little knowledge of Aboriginal culture, and that is not good; it needs to be rectified. Only as those sorts of issues are rectified can the general issue of how our juvenile justice system has impacted dreadfully on the Aboriginal community be addressed. I will not labour the point, but they were some observations I made in New Zealand. I believe that the New Zealanders are doing it better; they showed us some example of how we might do better in Australia.
The other aspect of our juvenile justice system that needs a great deal of reform is the court system. It was once aptly said to me that a court is sometimes a place where lawyers steal the dispute between a victim and an offender; that by and large the victim -
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if the victim happens to be present - and the offender watch a process take place in front of them, and they feel that they have no interaction with it at all. That is true so far as the childrens' court system in New South Wales is concerned. In most cases the victim is not there and is unaware of the outcome. In most cases the offenders do not understand the court process, and frequently the result is that they get a recognisance or a bond, which means that they walk out of the court room feeling that they got off. That is of no benefit to either the victim or the offender. In New Zealand we saw a system which is well described in the report - I will not go into its detail here. The victim, the offender, the police and representatives of the community through the community services department may be represented in a process which is informal, deals with the offender, and has a much better outcome. I commend that system to the people of New South Wales. We had a vigorous discussion within the committee about the exact form of system that should be adopted within this State. There was general acceptance within the committee that an offender should go through that process before the court process is entered into, that it needs to be done professionally, and that before any major initiatives are taken there needs to be extensive consultation with the Aboriginal community. I commend that view to the Government in its consideration of this matter.
I refer to our juvenile justice institutions. For a short time in my life, between the ages of 15 and 19, I lived with a large number of young boys who had been committed to an institution on what was then called general terms - I was not put there by the criminal system. It was not so apparent to me at that time that a great deal of what they discussed and a great deal of their activity within that institution involved their offending, how they were going to get around the police, and all those things relating to how they got there. Despite the best efforts of the people who ran that institution, there was very little concentration on how the young people might rehabilitate themselves. That was not apparent to me even at that time, although I was so close to that system. During my visit to New Zealand I had the opportunity to speak with some inmates of small institutions - I think they cater for only 20 young people at a time. I spent about half an hour with some young boys. At no time did they leave the subject of police, offending, or associated issues. I was asked whether I was a police officer and then I was told about their experiences with the court system. I was told about what their mates had done and how they had offended. Their entire conversation did not leave that subject for that half hour. I thought it unusual that they had that level of concentration. It is often said glibly that institutions are just universities of crime. The New Zealand experience illustrated to me how, by and large, taking children out of the community and incarcerating them makes the problem worse in most cases, not better. We need to work towards a situation where children are incarcerated only if they represent a genuine threat to themselves or the community. If we look at our institutions and the people who are there, they would not meet that test. I believe that the community would accept that test, though we would have to explain it carefully.
The Hon. Ann Symonds: If we maintain a bipartisan position on it.
The Hon. J. F. RYAN: A bipartisan position would help. We need to look at three basic ingredients in our juvenile justice system - the activities of the police, the role of the court system, and the role the institutions play. There is a great need for reform. It is something that I have had some experience with at almost all levels. It is something that for many reasons I will be pursuing, both in the Government and in the community, to see that most, if not all, of the reforms outlined in our report are implemented. I commend them to the Government.
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The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY [10.50]: It gives me very great pleasure to speak to the report of the Standing Committee on Social Issues entitled "Juvenile Justice in New South Wales". I feel that I was very privileged to be able to serve on that committee under the chairmanship of the Hon. Dr Marlene Goldsmith. I would first like to make it absolutely clear that although I was a signatory to a dissenting report, I wholeheartedly agree with the committee's philosophy and with the principles which guided the final recommendations of the committee. However, I made my decision to sign the dissenting report because of the committee's recommendations with regard to four major topics: community aid panels, children's panels, the Sentencing Act and the Summary Offences Act. I believe that those of us who signed the dissenting report were moved more by the degree of action which we believe needs to be taken rather than by any difference in philosophy.
I would like to deal with community aid panels. In the majority report, recommendations are made to address the problem of the lack of guidelines which regulate the operation of community aid panels. My concern related more to the fundamental legal issues raised by the operation of community aid panels. For the benefit of honourable members who may not be aware, young offenders who plead guilty to minor charges can choose to appear before a community aid panel before they are sentenced. A community aid panel consists of a police officer, who is the co-ordinator, a solicitor, and two members of the community, who discuss the reasons for the young offender's behaviour and then assign tasks to him or her - for example, the carrying out of community service work. The offender's attempts to make proper amends are then taken into account by the sentencing magistrate, which can be up to three months later. It is quite obvious that the liaison between the police, the courts, the community and the young offenders - and this is encouraged by this scheme - is very useful. However, I started to question very seriously whether the interests of children were being adequately taken into account by the community aid panels.
Even though community aid panels lack a legislative base, they can impose penalties on young offenders. Therefore, it seems that the police in effect have the ability to usurp the authority of the judiciary and the legislature, but their operations are not checked. Second, community aid panels have resulted in net widening. In fact, the panels are competing with police cautions. It is quite obvious that police cautions are cheaper and more appropriate. Panels and cautions both apply only to first offenders on minor charges. A Department of Family and Community Services evaluation of the Wyong CAP found that 54.3 per cent of appearances could have been included in the cautioning committee's category of less serious offences; offenders could have been subject to a caution. Significantly, the community aid panel is not available to the most serious repeat offenders. It is obvious that these are the ones most likely to need rehabilitation. It also concerned me that community aid panels in effect allow for the imposition of a double penalty. Offenders have to perform community work at the behest of the panel, but they still have to return to court. It may very well be that when offenders return to court the magistrate will impose another penalty on them.
The community aid panels invoke the indiscriminate use of Griffith remands. The Australian Law Reform Commission has recommended that a Griffith remand be used only if that is of benefit to the young person. It uses as an example psychological counselling. Other penalties which may be imposed by the community aid panel, for example community work, are in a very grey area. Some community work may be of great value, both to the community and the young person, but other community work may be of absolutely no value at all. We have heard people asking recently, "What good does it do having young people whitewash stones?" I am not suggesting that a community aid
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panel would suggest that sort of community service, but it is very difficult when there are no legislative guidelines for what one community aid panel might do, and how that might relate to community work that would be imposed by another community aid panel set up in a different part of New South Wales. I feel that the welfare of the offender is not adequately catered for because panel members do not necessarily have adequate training or resources. I refer to community representatives on the panel. Similarly, the legal representative on the panel may not have special training in youth offences. Further, it is doubtful whether an appropriate course of action could be decided during a brief one-off meeting.
I attended meetings of community aid panels, and they reached a decision on the young people they were interviewing in a very short time. I contrast this with what I saw in New Zealand. Panels there take extensive lengths of time to discuss the matter with the young person, the relatives of the young person, possibly members of the victim's family, and the victim, if that person wishes to attend. There is a great difference in approach between our community aid panels and those in New Zealand. The other concern I have is that participation in a community aid panel is not voluntary, because offenders are sentenced more harshly if they decide not to participate in a panel. This is a very difficult decision for a young offender to make, particularly if that person lacks strong family support and adequate legal advice. Finally, the imposition of community services as a penalty should, in my opinion, only be for serious offences, because it is only one step down from a custodial sentence in the sentence options available to magistrates. Again, I felt there were problems with the confidentiality of procedures.
The children's panel, which is one of the recommendations of the committee, moves beyond the shortcomings of community aid panels. It combines not only what the committee decided upon but also ideas drawn from the New Zealand family group conference. The children's panel will operate on the following principles. Diversion should be the first response to minor offences. Families - and I mean families in the extended sense; if a young offender has no immediate family it could be grandparents, uncles or cousins or, if he or she is unfortunate enough to have no relatives at all, at least friends and associates who would be able to support them - should participate in all decisions affecting young offenders. Also, the interests of victims of offences should be accounted for in measures taken to deal with the offender. These principles, which we learnt about when we went to New Zealand, are to be reflected in the composition of the children's panel and also in the people who may attend, because the view expressed in the report, supported by all members, is that a children's panel would consist of a juvenile justice officer, who will be the co-ordinator; a member of the police or a police community liaison officer and a community representative. Other people involved will be the offender, family or extended family members, and, if the victim wishes it, the victim and the victim's supporters. It is quite obvious that many victims would not wish to appear alone; they would wish to have support. It is proper that they get that support. Also, if the victim does not wish to appear at all, he or she should have that right, particularly if traumatised by the offence committed by the young offender. If the victim does not wish to participate further, that person has the right not to appear.
So as not to compete with police cautions, it is proposed that the children's panel will be a pre-court scheme but will only follow cautioning. Its outcomes will be reached through agreement and not involve the handing down of a decision. The children's panel will operate under clear guidelines and there must be adequate training of professional staff on the panel. Reparations will be either verbal or written apologies or the undertaking of remedial programs. These will be closely related to the offence so that young offenders will not perceive them as punishment for its own sake. Worldwide
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evidence indicates that that form of punishment has no value for any offender, young or adult, and especially not for children. There will be no de facto community service orders since the committee agreed such orders are only one stage away from a custodial sentence. The committee agreed unanimously, as stated by the Hon. J. F. Ryan, that custodial sentences should be a last resort. Mechanisms are proposed to ensure sensitivity of a panel to gender and race issues. As the majority of young offenders regrettably are Aboriginal, many of them coming from most disadvantaged circumstances in towns in the west and central west of this State, Aboriginal liaison officers will be necessary on the panels as well as supportive family members related to young offenders
The main reason I signed the dissenting report is because I believe, as it was agreed that the children's panel has clear benefits over community aid panels, it was essential that the children's panel begin operation immediately and that the two mechanisms would not operate in tandem. Another reason I signed the dissenting report is the adverse impact of the Sentencing Act 1989 on the juvenile justice system and particularly on post-release supervision and follow-up. I mentioned that matter yesterday in my contribution to the budget debate because I was most distressed to discover that funding for post-release supervision has been cut in this year's Budget. I realise that the Department of Justice has a big capital works program for building and modifying gaols but money being spent on bricks and mortar would be better spent on people with expertise to supervise young offenders on release and to follow them up so that they do not fall back into their old ways. It was apparent that unnecessary delay would occur if the majority recommendation for a review of the impact of the Sentencing Act on juvenile justice was followed.
I base this view on a study entitled "Sentencing Juvenile Offenders and the Sentencing Act 1989 (NSW)" by Cain and Lake for the Judicial Commission. That study found that the Sentencing Act 1989, which applies the same standards to children and adults and provides that terms of less than six months have to be served in gaol, led to many injustices. For example, sentences for juveniles are 34 per cent longer than those imposed under the previous law. A greater proportion of a sentence is being served in custody than on probation. Sixty-four per cent of sentences contained a period of probation under the system of earned remissions in the period 1987 to 1989, compared with 8 per cent under the Sentencing Act in the period 1989 to 1991, and post-release supervision for juveniles has decreased by 33 per cent. I found those figures in that report very scary. The funding cut in this year's Budget for post-release supervision has made me even more concerned. I am more anxious than ever that a children's panel be established as soon as possible. The Government, with a new Minister for Justice and a new Attorney General, should look carefully at the Sentencing Act 1989 and, I hope, make amendments to the provisions for juveniles.
The Sentencing Act is having an adverse impact on the rehabilitation of young offenders. I emphasise, as I have done on many occasions, that post-release supervision is crucial to help offenders reintegrate with the community. Reintegration is crucial for adult offenders and even more so for young offenders. A system of earned remissions linking good behaviour and early release will greatly enhance the chances of rehabilitating young offenders. The majority of young offenders in custody are not there for serious crimes but for petty theft, offensive language or non-payment of fines. They are not rapists or those who have committed serious assaults. The percentage of young offenders who have committed serious crime is minimal. I am also convinced that children should not be dealt with in the same way as adults, as applies under the Sentencing Act. Penalties for young offenders should therefore come under the Children (Criminal Proceedings) Act. The broad definition of the offensive language provisions in the
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Summary Offences Act 1988 is unacceptable. Police and courts have been given broad powers to determine what is considered offensive, but judgments as to whether language is offensive are largely subjective. It is more important to remember that the use of language is very much determined by cultural factors, contact and circumstance. Words considered offensive or taboo to someone with an English cultural background may have slightly different connotations to someone from an Aboriginal background or juveniles.
This became apparent to me a week ago when I and other members of the electoral reform committee went to Darwin to attend a conference on constitutional change in the 1990s. On Sunday morning, before the conference began, the honourable member for Oxley, the chairman of the committee, the honourable member for Coffs Harbour and I were sitting around the pool after we had a swim. A group of young men - we discovered later they were trainee Army officers - were in the pool. There is absolutely no doubt - we laughed about it among ourselves - that if police had been present all those young men could have been arrested and charged with offensive language under the Summary Offences Act. We lost count of the time they used the offensive word beginning with "f". They used it every second or third word: it was the only adjective. We found it cynically amusing but it was highly offensive. I was amazed that young men, obviously of some education, would believe that it was appropriate to use the word so freely when women and children also were sitting around the pool taking advantage of the prawns, the sun and the water. They were not in closed shop; they were not in a mess hall; they were not in barracks. I do not think they were even aware that they were using the word. That is probably the case with many young people who use the word in the same way in the vicinity of police officers. They are then charged with offensive language.
The Summary Offences Act needs amendment. The context in which the bad language is used must be considered. I do not deny for a second that the use of language intentionally to insult or harass is totally unacceptable, and that should be an offence. If any young person approaches another member of the community or a police officer and uses offensive language directly to the face of that person that should be an offence and the offender should be liable to be charged. However, when words flow off the tongue and are not even directed to the people who hear them it would be impossible - I have given an example of this - for police to effect an arrest in every case. We must also bear in mind that the police are the single largest group of people against whom bad language is used. Therefore, it can be argued that the offensive language provisions of the street offences legislation have now become an unwitting tool of institutional conflict. The confrontation - particularly in some of the towns in the west of New South Wales - is frequently about a challenge to the authority of police, even if it is only verbal. However, this is not sufficient reason to charge. And it is certainly not sufficient reason to gaol a young person.
I agree with the recommendations of the majority of the committee with regard to the Summary Offences Act. However, as I said, I believe it is necessary to tighten the definition of offensive language in the Act. That would go some way towards preventing the application of the section to mere unsavoury language, therefore reserving police powers for more serious verbal harassment. Given all that we know about the nature of offensive language - all honourable members would accept that subjective judgments are involved - the simple use of offensive language should no longer attract a criminal sanction. Most importantly, offensive conduct should not carry a prison sentence. I am convinced - this is the reason I signed the dissenting report - that a custodial sentence for street offences is out of all proportion to the harm caused. I was privileged to serve on the committee. I hope the Government will take the
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recommendations of the committee into account and implement them as a matter of priority. I also hope that the Government will look favourably on at least some of the recommendations of the minority report.
The Hon. D. F. MOPPETT [11.16]: I have not prepared a written speech: I want the sincerity of my purpose and my conviction in respect of a core issue of the report to shine out. I shall address the report conversationally but I hope what I have to say will be heard not only by members in the Chamber and the Minister for Education and Youth Affairs, and Minister for Employment and Training, who is at the table, but also by her colleagues. Future generations will look back on the enlightened changes that we make and view our efforts as creditable. The House can take great pride in the report. Across a wide range of subjects it is innovative and visionary. It is sensitive and informative on the issues covered. It is also challenging. Most importantly, in an area which perhaps to some people is a bit depressing there is underlying optimism in the report. The report bears witness to careful study and evaluation of the predisposing circumstances, the evolution of legislation in this area and the efforts that have been made by those involved in the administration of the laws to exercise their duties faithfully and sympathetically.
It is a credit to the committee that after its lengthy inquiry it was able to reach agreement and produce the report. This was a considerable achievement on the part of the chairman of the committee, the Hon. Dr Marlene Goldsmith, and the vice-chairman, the Hon. Ann Symonds. They had the difficult task of bringing together divergent views. The purpose of the members at all times was the same but for all sorts of reasons they approached the subject from different points of view. I compliment the chairman and vice-chairman for their creditable efforts. When committee members found that their particular points of view were not likely to succeed in their entirety the members reached an acceptable compromise. During my speech I will refer to compromise many times. I believe the House should read, mark and inwardly digest the report. Most importantly, honourable members should then go out and proselytise what it contains. The sad and serious backdrop to the report is that, even more so in juvenile justice than in general criminal administration, the community suffers from great ignorance, prejudice and myths about the origins and treatment of juvenile justice.
If progress is to be achieved, members on both sides of the political spectrum must accept that when a compromise has been struck, their original standpoints need to be set aside. Community acceptance is important. If the community is to accept changes proposed in the green or white papers or in the final recommendations of the report, members must work together. The Hon. Elisabeth Kirkby referred to the minority report. It should be noted that the minority report did not set itself against the core recommendation. Someone examining the report superficially may miss the point the Hon. Elisabeth Kirkby endeavoured to make. I should like to reinforce it. She said that her conviction about this issue was so important that she was concerned that the compromise may prejudice the implementation and acceptance of the core recommendation, in which she believed fervently, as I do. That is, of course, the children's panel. On the other hand, Reverend the Hon. F. J. Nile demonstrated the dilemma with which he had to come to grips. He spoke strongly about his own personal experience of the role of community aid panels. I doubt whether the Hon. Elisabeth Kirkby, the Hon. Ann Symonds and the Hon. K. J. Enderbury, who signed the minority report, would argue that in the absence of anything else the move to community aid panels has been a salutary one. The recommendation for their expansion and strengthening is one with which all honourable members would agree. Sometimes the difficulty with a compromise is that one falls between two stools. That was the dilemma faced by the committee.
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If one says that community aid panels are a good thing and should be strengthened, one may perhaps in some way diminish the acceptance of what may be regarded by some people as a revolutionary proposal, that is, the children's panel. I want to break down the perception that the New Zealand model of the children's panel is revolutionary or belongs particularly to the Maori culture and that therefore we must be careful about accepting it. I do not believe that is the case. Before dealing in detail with the importance of the children's panel, I should like to recount some of the background to juvenile justice in New South Wales and the circumstances which brought about this inquiry. As early as 1850, it was recognised that children should be dealt with differently under the law. At that time the criminal justice system was imposing sentences such as 500 lashes. The minimum age for jurisdiction was set at 16 years of age, but it was recognised that children had a special position in the criminal justice system. As legislation evolved, different ages were set and children's courts were established to deal specifically with children rather than having ordinary courts deal with children differently to adults.
The present legislation was foreshadowed in 1981 and finally set in place in 1987. Despite that long period of development, it is claimed in 1992 that the legislation is inadequate and something different is needed to deal with juvenile offenders. The motivation for that legislation and the reasons the dissatisfaction has developed are important. People gradually realised that a strong correlation existed between the socioeconomic circumstances of the child and the number and type of offences. The tendency was to claim that perhaps the child could be absolved of responsibility because of welfare and care issues. The rehabilitation of the child was the principal aim of all the legislation. More and more often those who administer juvenile justice return to a simultaneous consideration of the offence and the welfare needs of the child. That seems commendable in an abstract way, but the practical difficulties that have been experienced in pursuing that course can be summarised by saying that the whole system became too bureaucratised and that the essential parties became separated and felt they were powerless. The offender particularly felt that somehow or other he was being dragged along in a system which he did not fully understand. Recently the chairman of the committee attended a conference held in Adelaide, at which Judge Hal Jackson from Western Australia, in a broad criticism of the existing juvenile justice structures, made the following points - that the shaming process was overlooked, that the whole system had become too bureaucratised, that the offender and the victim were depersonalised by their treatment, that the victim had been removed from the formula and that the whole system failed to meet the social mores of indigenous people, whether they be Aborigines or members of ethnic groups who were not totally familiar with our legal process. Those criticisms were piercing and very much supported the views of the social issues committee when it considered alternatives to the present system.
The central issue I particularly wanted to address today is the children's panel. The report has two strands. It contained a series of detailed and carefully considered recommendations, dealing with police matters, in terms of cautioning and bail, the care and custody of children in juvenile centres, programs for the prevention of crime and a host of issues that, in my view, could stand alone and be carefully considered. But the essential theme of that part of the report was modifications to the existing system. The difference with children's panels is that they are new. To that extent I believe the proposal deserves closer attention. Those who describe the children's panel as the New Zealand model and make the fatal mistake of saying that it is essentially something rooted in Maori culture misunderstand the essential tenet of the proposal. I believe the panel has a common denominator in any culture and any society. The children's panel recommended for New South Wales is based more on a model of justice in Scotland than
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precisely on the New Zealand model. That is part of the compromise process that worries me somewhat. I want to amplify on that. Honourable members who have seen the New Zealand children's panel in operation could not be other than deeply impressed by its almost unqualified success in dealing with juvenile offenders.
The lingering worry I have about the recommendation is the name, children's panel. New Zealanders call their juvenile justice system the family group conference, but the Government is advocating a children's panel and the bringing in of a community representative to sit on the panel. The New Zealanders do not have panels. Theirs is not a system of adjudication but of reinforcing the normal ways in which a family goes about expiating an offence against a neighbour. I shall give a simple example of a process in which many honourable members will either have participated in one form or another or know about through their contact in the community. Suppose a small child, despite a warning, hits a cricket ball and breaks the window of the neighbour's house. One might say that, in theory, the matter could be dealt with by the police or the court, but no one in his right mind would suggest that is the solution. Most families say to the child that he must go and face the neighbour, admit what he has done and apologise. That is the first step. To most children it is a very big step, but most parents insist that they make the apology in person to the neighbour. The neighbour, who may have been very annoyed and who may have rung up on the telephone and asked, "What are you going to do about that little brat of yours?" when confronted with the child cools down immediately and begins to realise that maybe he ought to adopt a more circumspect and judicious outlook. Nevertheless, the neighbour may not be satisfied with a simple apology in the circumstances. He may say, "I accept that you have come. I thank you for coming to acknowledge what you have done, but that is not quite enough. The window will cost me money to repair. I believe you ought to do something in my yard, or clean my car to at least demonstrate that you understand what I have lost".
Those are the essential elements of the New Zealand system. No panel adjudicates on the matter. A meeting between the offender, his family and the victim of the crime is co-ordinated. If we depart from that simple model, the proposal will be placed in jeopardy. Nevertheless, a compromise had to be reached in presenting the proposal to the New South Wales public. Frankly, when I went to New Zealand I was sceptical about whether the New Zealand model could possibly work in New South Wales among the hard nuts of Kings Cross, or in that difficult and vexed situation where Aboriginal and European cultures are having some difficulties in adjusting in some country areas. I said, "This is just dear old New Zealand. They seem to be able to do this sort of thing but it is not going to work in New South Wales". But, when I grasped the central core of the New Zealand system, I was convinced that it would have immediate application in New South Wales, Australia, or anywhere in the world, provided there was an understanding of the essential elements that there was no one virtually in the middle, no one who removed the responsibility of the child to face up to what he or she had done.
I was particularly interested because it brought to mind an incident from the remarks of Judge Kingsley Newman from South Australia, who made an interesting reflection on the origins of justice generally under the British system. He said that, originally, justice in the Anglo-Saxon tradition was strictly between the victim and offender. If a man murdered his neighbour's wife, the penalty was to give the neighbour a cow or reparation on a well understood scale. The Crown had virtually no stake in it, other than to see that each time justice was applied it was applied uniformly and fairly. Later on, the genius of the bureaucracy started to emerge. They realised that the Crown could assert a proprietary right, and introduced fines. Instead of the offender giving the
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victim reparation on a scale, the Crown would say to the victim, "You sit there quietly and observe justice and do not say very much at all. This is the King's justice" - or the Queen's justice - "and we will expiate the sin by imposing a fine which goes to the Treasury". That was very handy.
The Hon. R. D. Dyer: The victim became an afterthought.
The Hon. D. F. MOPPETT: Absolutely. To a degree, that practice of imposing a penalty and punishment was transposed into the juvenile system, but it is counter-productive, particularly when dealing with children, to say, "I am in authority. It is now out of the hands of your parents. I am the person in a position of authority and I propose to punish you according to a prescribed formula". Magistrates would say, "But that is not how we operate. We are endeavouring to do everything we can to remove the formality". Nevertheless, in practice the child regards it as a formalised system in which his parents are removed. Sadly, in many cases parents tend to say, "You go down to the court. You will probably be back in a couple of hours and that will satisfy society's demands". The proposed children's panel is a compromise that I believe will work. It should receive wholehearted support. We should bring together the victim and the offender to enable the victim to receive satisfaction. The victim will feel that the system is working and will not be hostile towards the juvenile justice system, as many victims are now. The child will understand the outcome more and respond more positively. That is really what we are considering. The juvenile justice report tabled today is only part of a process. The Government is considering a green paper, which will subsequently be amended and brought forward in the form of a white paper. I hope there will be a great deal of public comment and consideration of the recommendations. I believe that New South Wales can look forward to a very active - [Time expired.]
CARLINGFORD DRAINAGE IMPROVEMENT (LAND EXCHANGE) BILL
Suspension of certain standing orders, by leave, agreed to.
Bill received and read a first time.
CONTRACTS REVIEW (COMMERCIAL TENANCY LEASES) AMENDMENT BILL
Motion by the Hon. B. H. Vaughan agreed to:
That leave be given to bring in a bill to amend the Contracts Review Act 1980, to provide for the inclusion of commercial tenancy leases.
RURAL LANDS PROTECTION (AMENDMENT) BILL
Bill introduced and read a first time.
Second Reading
The Hon. R. S. L. JONES [11.42]: I move:
That this bill be now read a second time.
Perhaps for the first time in history a government has ordered the deliberate extinction of a species of animal. The alpine dingo is a distinctly different dog from desert and tropical dingoes. Yesterday in the Parliament many honourable members would have had
Page 6962
the opportunity to see one of these remarkable animals, and for many members it was the first time that they had ever seen a pure-bred alpine dingo; it may also be the last time. The Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs has ordered the extinction of the alpine dingo. Alpine dingoes in captivity in New South Wales must be either desexed or destroyed by the end of this month. This will mean the end of the alpine dingo, because desexing will cause its numbers to fall to such an extent that it will not be possible to save it from extinction. The dingo is the only native dog in Australia, possibly descended from the plains wolves of India. It is one of the earliest known wild dogs. Fossil remains 8,000 years old have been excavated in South Australia. It is possible that dingoes arrived with the first Aborigines from the north 30,000 or more years ago. Dingoes dwell in tropical jungles, deserts, plains and the high country. Dingoes, or warrigals as they are called, are the largest land predators in Australia. As part of our native fauna they were in harmony with the continent's ecology, living on macropods, wombats and ground-dwelling birds. They were domesticated by the Aborigines and when the colony was first settled by Europeans all recorded reports on dingoes stated that they were in company with the Aborigines.
Disturbance of the dingoes' natural habitat has occurred constantly since white settlement. In addition, trapping, poisoning and shooting has disrupted dingo family units. Those surviving dingoes, in search of their own kind, encroach upon settled areas and sometimes stock losses do occur. Contrary to the most ill-informed opinions, dingoes, like the wolf, are temperamentally well-adjusted. Observers of these animals in the wild describe them as having a friendly and happy disposition towards one another, with aggressive tendencies being the rarity rather than the norm. Of all the carnivores, the wolf and dingo are considered to exhibit the most agreeable social behaviour. Where a dingo has been raised entirely in a domestic environment, its temperament towards humans is one of placid gentleness and friendliness. The dingo is nature's dog, while the domestic dog has been created through cross-breeding to suit man's requirements - hunting. Man has created unnatural traits in most breeds - for example aggression - to meet these requirements. These man-made dogs are now populating wilderness areas where they roam in packs on the fringes of national parks and farming areas and create havoc among native fauna and domestic stock - often causing heavy stock losses. Unfortunately 90 per cent of these attacks are blamed upon our dog. In the past 10 years 807 wild dogs were trapped by a professional dogger in northeastern Victoria, of which only one was perceived to be a dingo. Regrettably the dingo is becoming extinct - not only in captivity but also in the wild. Harry Mason, a geologist based in Western Australia, spent years in the bush in remote areas of the Northern Territory, Western Australia, Queensland and South Australia. He has spent long periods camping out in these areas as part of a well-funded investigation for exploration potential. Mr Mason said:
I've been visiting remote areas throughout Australia since 1969 on about three year cycles. Places that were full of dingoes in the 1970s are now empty. The dingoes are gone.
Exploration teams, when on extended trips, used to befriend wild dingoes, feeding them on camp scraps. Mr Mason said:
There's a lot of false information about the dingo's viciousness. They are not killers, they are quite timid, but once they get used to you, easy to befriend.
Though the case for the alpine dingo looks bleak, Mr Mason said that the myth that dingoes are in plague proportions in the central desert area is false. In Western Australia doggers still receive a $25 bounty for every pair of dingo ears. Trappers now possess sophisticated equipment, four-wheel drive vehicles and effective poisoning techniques, which are also distributed widely by air drops. Mr Mason said:
Page 6963
Trapping and poisoning is only supposed to happen within a 30 kilometre radius of properties. Recently a question was asked in the Western Australian Parliament about whether this was being done. The politician said yes, but I can tell you there are poisoning signs hundreds of kilometres from any grazing lands. The dingo is being wiped out. All I see now are carcasses and bones. It is rare to see a wild dingo, where once it was common, and I'm talking about some pretty remote places.
The tragedy of the situation is that dingoes play an important part in the ecosystem. Newsome's studies found that dingoes prefer to eat native wildlife and only take sheep and cattle when native wildlife supplies are depleted by the intrusion of grazing activities into country which once supplied the dingo's native favourites. Native animals, unable to compete with introduced grazing animals, especially sheep, diminish, leaving dingoes with the lamb chop option. However, it is a last resort. Newsome conducted a study in the Gippsland area where dingoes had a choice between native and domestic tucker. He said:
Of 421 Dingoes examined in the region to ascertain what made up their diet, researchers found that sheep and cattle were eaten only by 26 animals. Fifteen of these ate domestics as carrion. Of the nine found to have eaten cattle, two contained calves definitely killed by them. Of the 17 Dingoes that had eaten sheep, seven contained carrion and one was caught on a dead sheep used as a lure. Of the remaining 395 Dingoes, 383 or 89.3% were found to have eaten animals and 12.33% had eaten a pest species (the feral pig).
Dingoes are not the great stock killers they have been accused of being. It seems totally outrageous and unacceptable that in 1992 we are ordering the extinction of the alpine dingo. A member of this House said that dingoes kill, but so do snakes. It is snake season up north; there are a lot of brown snakes around Byron Bay. Brown snakes, which kill human beings, are protected. We do not wipe them out; they are killed only when they threaten people. Why then are snakes not being killed by order? Why just the alpine dingo? It is regrettable that the alpine dingo is practically extinct in the wild through crossbreeding with feral dogs. The only way to maintain alpine dingoes as a separate species is to retain them in a complete state. There is overwhelming evidence that alpine dingoes and other dingoes can be domesticated the same as any other dog. Honourable members saw how docile and friendly the young dingoes which were brought into the Chamber yesterday were. Anyone who has a kelpie or a cattle dog would know how affectionate, loyal and intelligent those dogs are. They would know also that they have been bred from dingoes.
I am deeply shocked that a government can order the deliberate extinction of a breed of animal; others have expressed this same sense of outrage and shock. As the alpine dingoes in captivity in New South Wales have only two weeks before they are either desexed or destroyed, I have decided to move swiftly, with the co-operation of honourable members. I have spoken to the Leader of the Opposition, to the Leader of the Opposition in this Chamber and to Reverend the Hon. F. J. Nile about this. All honourable members I have spoken to, on both sides of the House, do not wish to see these animals desexed or destroyed in the next two weeks. Because of the urgency of the situation I brought on a private member's bill to redefine the status of dingoes. This legislation, the Rural Lands Protection (Amendment) Bill, will help to protect the handful of pure bred alpine dingoes still left in New South Wales. From the reaction the dogs received yesterday from the media and members of Parliament, it is perfectly clear that this legislation will receive overwhelming endorsement from the majority of members of Parliament. The bill states:
The objects of this Bill are to allow dingos to be kept in captivity and to provide that the conditions under which certain animals classified as "noxious" are allowed to be kept in captivity may only be prescribed by regulations.
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The Bill amends the Rural Lands Protection Act 1989:
(a) to redefine the status of the dingo (also known as the "native dog") as a defined "wild dog" for the purposes of that Act; and
(b) to remove the dingo (in captivity) from the "noxious animal" category for the purposes of that Act; and
(c) to require any conditions subject to which a permission under that Act is obtained for the keeping of noxious animals to be prescribed by regulations.
The Bill also amends the Wild Dog Destruction Act 1921 so as to redefine the dingo's status in a similar manner.
The Rural Lands Protection Act makes administrative provision for the suppression and destruction of wild dogs. For example, section 32 of the Act provides for the establishment and maintenance by rural lands protection boards of wild dog destruction funds and section 138 provides for the conduct of campaigns of suppression and destruction. At present the dingo is, by definition, a wild dog for the purposes of the Act, whether in captivity or not. The Wild Dog Destruction Act requires an owner or occupier of land to destroy all wild dogs on his or her property. By definition the dingo is currently a wild dog for the purposes of that Act. The amendment to be made by proposed section 3(a) is designed to place the dingo on a similar footing to other dogs with respect to their wild character. For the purposes of the Rural Lands Protection Act, a wild dog will be a dog other than a dingo that is or has become wild or a dingo in the wild. Schedule 2 will amend the Wild Dog Destruction Act in a manner that reflects the amendments to be made to the Rural Lands Protection Act by proposed section 3(a).
Under the Rural Lands Protection Act rabbits, wild dogs and feral pigs are classified as noxious animals. In addition, the Minister administering that Act has the power to declare other species as noxious. The Act contains provisions for the destruction and suppression of noxious animals which cannot be kept without permission from the Minister. The amendment to be made by proposed section 3(b) will prevent the Minister from declaring the dingo to be a noxious animal on a whole species basis. Section 131 of the Rural Lands Protection Act enables the Minister to grant permission to a person to keep a noxious animal, subject to any conditions prescribed by the regulations or, if no such conditions are prescribed, it is subject to conditions imposed by the Minister. An amendment to be made by item (2) of schedule 1 will abolish the Minister's power to impose conditions. The result is any desired condition must be imposed by regulation.
A number of these animals are kept in New South Wales by various breeders. All the breeders have been threatened with the destruction of their animals. Mr Ray Berryman possesses two dingoes of the Gippsland high plains or alpine dingo species. He has two bitches - one five years old and one 13 years old - in his possession. The young bitch is a pure bred alpine dingo from stock that has been in captivity for three to four generations. The older bitch is, for all practical purposes, pure bred, although it does have some other blood in it. The Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs has made an order that both dogs be desexed or destroyed. Mr Leslie Hall of Beelbangera has 12 dogs, 10 of which are alpine or eastern dingoes. These animals from various sources, including Frank Steele, have been bred in captivity. Most of them have been bred from the original two which came to him from Frank Steele. Mr Hall has been issued with a notice from the Narrandera Rural Lands Protection Board to destroy or desex the dogs. Mr Hall has appealed to many politicians and others to save his dogs.
Page 6965
Mr Scott Middleton has one black and tan bitch and one yellow dog which are half brother and sister to the animal owned by Mr Oakman. The pups bred from these dogs were placed with the Dingo Education Centre, "Merigal", at Bargo and the hydatid control campaign officer of New South Wales for research and ultimate destruction. He also has a bitch that is currently at "Merigal". The bitch was given a phosphorous bait last week, the day a media release appeared in the Canberra Times, and she almost died. She is still extremely ill. A further bait was thrown over the fence on 3rd September. Mr Scott Middleton has not been served with any notices relating to the dogs but on at least two occasions he has been visited and, at times, intimidated by persons thought to be local rangers and a Rural Lands Protection Board officer. He has been told that his pups will have to be destroyed and his dogs destroyed or desexed.
Mr Barry Oakman, who visited the Parliament yesterday, has been associated with dingo breeding since he was nine years old. He currently has two bitches which are both 2½ years old. They came from stock owned by Les Hall. The grandfather of both animals came from stock owned by Frank Steele, who lived on Raymond Island, off Bairnsdale in Victoria. These animals are not under threat at the moment as they are located in the Australian Capital Territory and are registered under the Dog Control Act as kelpie crosses, although full disclosure has been made. These animals, which constitute the main breeding stock of alpine dingoes, are all due for either desexing or destruction in the next two weeks. There has been a very strong reaction from the media and individuals who saw the animals on television recently. It is quite clear that members of the public do not want them to be desexed or destroyed. This is a strange archaic anomaly which exists in our law. It has to be changed. I hope that this law is changed within the next few weeks and the people who have domestic dingoes and breed them in captivity are allowed to keep them in a complete state and that the species will survive.
Debate adjourned on motion by the Hon. R. S. L. Jones.
The PRESIDENT: Order! It being 12 noon, pursuant to sessional orders, business is interrupted for the taking of questions.
QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE
______
STUDENT TRANSPORT SCHEME
The Hon. FRANCA ARENA: My question without notice is directed to the Minister for Education and Youth Affairs, and Minister for Employment and Training. Why has the Acting Director-General of the Department of Education, Mr Dennis Ralph, supported proposals by Treasury and the Department of Transport for a parental contribution of up to $100 a year for each child under the school student transport scheme? Will the Government give a firm assurance that the parental payment will not be introduced?
The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I am unaware of the truth or otherwise of the assertion that Dennis Ralph has supported that proposal. Though I have seen the material prepared in readiness for submissions to the Public Accounts Committee, I most certainly do not recall any recommendation from our department in a formal sense in relation to any specific fee, let alone $100, as an official department position. I am unaware whether Mr Dennis Ralph advocated or supported a $100 fee, and I will double check whether, if he did say that, he did it in a personal capacity or in purporting to represent a departmental view.
Page 6966
Later,
The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Earlier today the Hon. Franca Arena posed a question to me. She is no longer in the Chamber. She cast a slur and made assertions about what was said or not said by the Deputy Director-General of the Department of School Education. The honourable member asked:
Why has the Acting Director-General of the Department of Education, Mr Dennis Ralph, supported proposals by Treasury and the Department of Transport for a parental contribution of up to $100 a year for each child under the school student transport scheme?
During the course of question time my staff contacted Mr Dennis Ralph. It is a cheap shot for honourable members to take the name of senior public servants in vain in this Chamber under privilege. Mr Dennis Ralph has not spoken publicly on this issue. He was not contacted by the Daily Telegraph Mirror. A submission by the department, as opposed to recommendations, has gone to the Public Accounts Committee. It does not include any mention of a $100 fee. Mr Dennis Ralph has not appeared before the Public Accounts Committee and has not advocated a $100 fee. The name used was the Deputy Director-General, a senior public servant, the then Acting Director-General of the Department of School Education. I will not have officers of the department verballed in such a way.
TWEED SHIRE COUNCIL AND Mr AND Mrs TAGGET
The Hon. R. T. M. BULL: My question without notice is directed to the Minister for Planning, and Minister for Housing. Is the Minister aware of a protracted dispute between Tweed Shire Council and Mr and Mrs Neil Tagget of Pottsville regarding management of their property, which includes an area classified under State Environmental Planning Policy 14? Has he taken any steps to speed the resolution of the dispute and avoid further threatened litigation?
The Hon. R. J. WEBSTER: The question raised by the Hon. R. T. M. Bull is important not only for the Tweed Shire Council, the Tagget family and the citizens of the Tweed shire but also in a wider context. The dispute involves difficult and complex issues related to the protection of the environment and landholders' rights. I have received numerous representations over a long period from the council; the Tagget family; local community groups; the honourable member for Murwillumbah, Mr Don Beck; and, most recently, the New South Wales Farmers Association. The difficulty in balancing environmental considerations and landholders' rights is highlighted in the judgment brought down on this matter by Justice Bannon in the Land and Environment Court recently. A brief background is that in 1987 new State Environmental Planning Policy 14 was proclaimed, dealing with the protection of wetlands. Tweed Shire Council subsequently included 130 acres of the Taggets' land, more than 50 per cent of it, in the wetlands zoning under the local environmental plan. At the same time, council released adjacent and lower land from the SEPP 14 restrictions. Since then a dispute has focused on a number of issues: first, the area that should legitimately be included in the wetlands zoning; second, disagreement on whether there were existing drains on the property, and the management of those drains by the Taggets; and, third, the appropriate height for a bund wall erected on adjoining land which restricts the flow of water from the Taggets' land.
The Hon. J. R. Johnson: What sort of wall?
Page 6967
The Hon. R. J. WEBSTER: It is a bund wall. Recently council prosecuted the Taggets, testing their claim of existing use rights as far as the drains were concerned. Justice Bannon, in a complex case, found various points in favour of both parties before awarding costs against the Taggets. As the council was defending SEPP 14, the Department of Planning agreed to support the council's costs to a limit of $30,000. Unfortunately, the litigation has not resolved the issue, which has become even more complicated with the prospect of further litigation from both sides. Mr and Mrs Tagget are considering an appeal on what their legal advisers claim are strong grounds, and I understand that the council is considering a further prosecution. This is a case that will not be made clearer by further legal action, which would be costly for everyone involved, including the ratepayers of the Tweed shire. The interests of everyone would be best served if both council and the Tagget family paused, took a step backwards and carefully considered their situation. The best and most positive resolution can come through a careful reconsideration of the facts by all parties, followed by negotiation and agreement.
There are a number of comments that I would like to make to set the scene for further consideration. At the moment council, the Public Works Department and officers of my Department of Planning are considering an appropriate height for the bund wall. I must say that I would need to see much stronger argument than has been presented to this point before I would consider approving lifting the wall height. In fact, arguments being put in favour of lowering the wall are seen by some as being just as strong as any arguments to raise it. I should also make it very clear that I would not approve any further financial assistance for Tweed Shire Council to engage in any further litigation, simply because I believe that is not the way to resolve this issue. The continuing controversy surrounding the Taggets' land is a clear reflection of the belief of many people that the wetland classification for at least some of the property is debatable. I will be seeking further advice from my department on whether reconsideration of that classification might be an appropriate first step in a careful reassessment of all issues related to the case. I recommend that both council and the Taggets pause to reflect on the most constructive and productive resolution of the dispute.
CREDIT CARD CHARGES
Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: I wish to ask the Minister for Education and Youth Affairs, and Minister for Employment and Training, representing the Minister for Consumer Affairs, and Assistant Minister for Education, a question without notice. Is it a fact that New South Wales banks are planning to introduce an up-front charge for credit cards to offset lower interest rates? Would a $10 credit card fee require a pro rata 2 per cent interest fee reduction to ensure justice for New South Wales consumers? What policy position has been adopted by the Minister for Consumer Affairs, and Assistant Minister for Education on this most important matter? Thousands of New South Wales citizens are dependent on credit cards during the recession.
The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Given the significance of and interest in this matter, it would be inappropriate for me to try to hazard a guess at the policy to be adopted or the position advocated by my colleague the Minister for Consumer Affairs, and Assistant Minister for Education. I undertake to seek her advice on this very important matter. I presume that, just as I have, in recent times all honourable members would have been following the very vigorous debate that has ensued in the media on the pros and cons of the entire matter, and indeed a variety of other options that I understand are under consideration. Under the circumstances, it would be more appropriate if I seek the advice of my colleague.
Page 6968
WREN WHEAT
The Hon. J. R. JOHNSON: I direct a question without notice to the Deputy Leader of the Government in this House representing the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs. Is Wren wheat being grown in New South Wales? If so, what acreage? Is this variety of such quality that any planting should be discouraged? Do these plantings have the approval of the Wheat Board?
The Hon. R. J. WEBSTER: I congratulate the Hon. J. R. Johnson on his reawakened interest in matters agricultural. I assure him, as this is only the third agricultural question asked of me in 18 months, that I will seek a detailed answer to his question.
TWEED SHIRE COUNCIL AND Mr AND Mrs TAGGET
The Hon. D. J. GAY: My question without notice is directed to the Minister for Planning, and Minister for Housing, representing the Minister for Conservation and Land Management, and Minister for Energy following the Minister's answer to the Hon. R. T. M. Bull. Is the Minister aware that the solicitors advising Tweed Shire Council in their action against the Taggets are also the solicitors for Pottsville Waters Pty Limited, the adjoining owner to the Taggets, on whose land was built the bund wall that caused the damming and consequent flooding of Mr Tagget's property, for which the council is suing him in relation to alleged breaches of State Environmental Planning Policy 14? Is the Minister aware also that the same firm of solicitors has written to Mr Tagget advising him of other prosecutions pending in relation to substantially the same matters?
The Hon. M. R. Egan: On a point of order. I know nothing about the issues that the Hon. D. J. Gay is raising. However, his question is clearly against the spirit of the standing orders; it is full of information. The honourable member is mounting a case rather than seeking information.
The PRESIDENT: Order! The honourable member is entitled to give a reasonable amount of background information in asking his question, but he is nearing the limit and I ask him to put the question.
The Hon. D. J. GAY: Is the Minister further aware that not only is the firm Halliday and Stainlay the solicitors on the record for both companies but that a principal of that firm has been a company secretary of the same company since 1989? What action is the Minister proposing to take in relation to these matters?
The Hon. R. J. WEBSTER: My attention has recently been drawn by the New South Wales Farmers Association to alleged anomalies in relation to the conduct of this case and in respect to aspects of the evidence presented to the court. The issue concerning Halliday and Stainlay is a matter of concern. There may well be an explanation for the concerns raised and I will refer the matter to my colleague the Attorney General for consideration.
BUS SEAT BELTS
The Hon. ELAINE NILE: I address my question without notice to the Minister for Justice, Minister for Emergency Services, Minister Assisting the Premier, and Vice-President of the Executive Council. Is it a fact that seat belts in buses may have saved
Page 6969
the life of one passenger and diminished greatly the injuries suffered by many passengers in the horrific bus crash at Katoomba yesterday? What is the Government's urgent timetable to have seat belts installed in buses; and, if so, in which category of buses - tourist, private, and public - or will it be all inclusive?
The Hon. E. P. PICKERING: It would be appropriate for the Minister in the other place to give a detailed answer to the honourable member's question, but as I have had experience on two separate occasions with horrific bus crashes in this State, in which dozens of people were killed and maimed, members may assume that I have taken an interest in the subject of road safety in general and bus safety in particular. Installation of seat belts in buses is not a simple matter of attaching seat belts to existing buses. Belts are only effective if at the time of collision they remain attached to a substantial construction member within a bus. Traditional bus construction does not provide a suitably robust engineering structure to which a seat belt could be realistically attached. The introduction of bus seat belts would require a fundamental change in the design and construction of buses, to provide significantly more robust construction members, especially in the floor. Those construction members would be heavier and would increase the cost of bus construction. All of that is the responsibility of the Federal Government. The Minister for Transport and the Minister for Roads have been strenuously pushing Mr Brown, the Federal Minister, to expedite action by the Federal Government to ensure that buses used in Australia are fitted with seat belts.
The Hon. Franca Arena: Is seat belt standards the responsibility of the Federal Government?
The Hon. E. P. PICKERING: Yes. As the construction standards for buses and cars are Australian design standards, they are the responsibility of the Federal Government. Both of my colleagues in the other place have pushed Mr Brown, the Federal Minister, extremely hard on this issue. It is fair to say that they are somewhat disappointed at the general attitude of Mr Brown and the Federal Government. I hope that in the light of yesterday's tragic bus accident - yet another in this State - The Commonwealth Government will at long last face up to its responsibilities in this regard.
JUVENILE JUSTICE GREEN PAPER
The Hon. ANN SYMONDS: I direct my question without notice to the Minister for Justice, Minister for Emergency Services, Minister Assisting the Premier, and Vice-President of the Executive Council. Is the Minister aware that the social issues committee presented its report on juvenile justice in May this year? Does the Minister know that in response to that report the Government promised a green paper for community consultation, with a deadline of 29th October? Where is the green paper? What is the deadline for community consultation?
The Hon. E. P. PICKERING: I advise the honourable member that the green paper is passing through what could be broadly described as the Cabinet process. The honourable member would be aware that Ministers rarely take the opportunity of describing that process in the House.
APPRENTICESHIP AND TRAINING AWARDS
The Hon. D. F. MOPPETT: I direct my question without notice to the Minister for Education and Youth Affairs, and Minister for Employment and Training. This morning the Daily Telegraph Mirror carried a report on the New South Wales apprenticeship and training awards. Can the Minister give further details of those awards and inform the House how the recipients were chosen?
Page 6970
The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I thank the Hon. D. F. Moppett for his question, which gives me the opportunity to congratulate, on behalf of all honourable members, the apprentice of the year and the trainee of the year. Their names were announced last night at a formal function which I was privileged to attend, at which the finest trainees, apprentices and employers in New South Wales were presented with l4 awards for excellence in vocational training. The two main recipients were the 1992 New South Wales Apprentice of the Year, Emma Jenkins, a delightful young woman, and the 1992 New South Wales trainee of the year - another young woman, I am pleased to say - Emma Worsley. Emma Jenkins, 25, is an apprentice jeweller employed by Mark Young of Surrey Hills. Emma Worsley, 19, is a food services trainee who now works for the Park Lane Hotel, which, coincidentally, was the venue for the awards. Emma's award added to the excitement of the management and other staff at the hotel. Close second and third place getters for the apprentice of the year were Troy Everett and Darren Hunt; and for trainee of the year Antoinette Galluzzo - a young woman from Leeton, as I recall - and Tracey Earl. Officers from the Department of Industrial Relations, Employment, Training and Further Education assess hundreds of candidates for the awards before selecting 12 finalists. Finalists were chosen on the basis of excellence in their field of employment, their communication and personal skills, and their strength in achieving goals, self-reliance, and teamwork. Yesterday evening I also announced the winners of the 1992 Sydney Morning Herald employers award for training excellence. The winners were McDonalds Australia, Email Limited and IMB Building Society.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti: McDonalds?
The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Indeed, in part because of their consistency in training every single member of their staff and their commitment to training young people. There is a recognition that the overwhelming majority of young people trained in McDonalds have no intention of staying with McDonalds, so the general useful training the staff receive is a broader contribution to the training of young people in general. These employers were chosen for their obvious commitment to training and their consistent investment in the training process. I am proud that even in these difficult economic times New South Wales employers are responding magnificently to the modern demand for a highly trained work force and are recognising the need for ongoing training. More and more businesses have recognised the importance of training for the employees and can directly link their training efforts to productivity gains. The results of exemplary training practices are outstanding young trainees and apprentices such as the young people honoured by the awards. The awards show the superb outcomes which can be achieved when both employer and employees have a strong commitment to training. The awards should receive prominence beyond the finalists and their families. I for one cannot understand the lack of publicity attracted by the top apprentices in New South Wales, selected after rigorous interview and investigation from literally hundreds of applicants. I do not understand why the top apprentice and the top trainee and their fellow finalists did not receive the same public acclaim for their successes as is received by sporting heroes and people in other fields of endeavour. I believe that their contribution is, at the very least, as great.
CENTRAL COAST DRUG AND ALCOHOL REHABILITATION
The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: My question is directed to the Minister for Justice, Minister for Emergency Services, Minister Assisting the Premier, and Vice-President of the Executive Council, representing the Minister for Health. Will the Minister confirm that Central Coast residents who need detoxification treatment resulting from addiction to alcohol or drugs cannot be admitted to the drug and alcohol
Page 6971
rehabilitation unit at Morisset Hospital? If this is so, will the Minister ensure that arrangements are made for these people to be treated in future at Morisset, where they can be in closer contact with their families, rather than having to be resident in a detoxification unit in Sydney, much further away from family support? If not, why not?
The Hon. E. P. PICKERING: The question appears to be important and I will certainly pass it on to my ministerial colleague for an urgent response.
YERRANDERIE ACCESS
The Hon. Dr MEREDITH BURGMANN: My question is directed to the Minister for Planning, and Minister for Housing. What access to Yerranderie and its surrounds will be provided for residents, landowners and visitors through the Water Board area of the Nattai National Park, which is in the Camden electorate?
The Hon. R. J. WEBSTER: I know that the Hon. Dr Meredith Burgmann takes a keen interest in the south of the State. I have read what she has had to say in the various media outlets in her area. As usual, her fertile imagination has led her to say things which I have had difficulty believing. I will seek the information which the honourable member requires and provide her with a detailed answer.
Later,
The Hon. R. J. WEBSTER: Earlier today I was asked a question by the Hon. Dr Meredith Burgmann with respect to access to Yerranderie in the Nattai National Park. There is limited access to this facility by local residents but tourist traffic has ceased due to the sensitive environmental nature of the area and the catchment.
LINDEN BUS CRASH
The Hon. PATRICIA FORSYTHE: My question is directed to the Minister for Justice, Minister for Emergency Services, Minister Assisting the Premier, and Vice-President of the Executive Council. Further to the question asked earlier by the Hon. Elaine Nile, will the Minister provide details of the accident, in particular the subsequent rescue effort?
The Hon. E. P. PICKERING: I thank the honourable member for the opportunity to inform the House of the circumstances surrounding the horrific bus smash which occurred in the Blue Mountains yesterday and to put on record the thanks of the Government, this House, and the people of New South Wales, as well as my personal thanks, to all the emergency services members, both permanent and volunteer, who responded so magnificently to assist and rescue those trapped and injured in the bus. The impact between the bus and the truck was substantial, and extensive damage was caused. The force of the crash caused the bus to crash into the steel safety railing on the northern side of the road. I understand that as a result of the initial impact two or more people were thrown from the bus and, tragically, one lady was killed. Two others were badly injured and many were trapped inside the bus.
I take this opportunity to praise the efforts of all the emergency services and the members of the public who responded to yesterday's tragic accident. The professionalism displayed by the police, fire brigades, ambulance services, bush fire brigades, the State Emergency Service, Polair, NRMA Careflight, the Westpac Surf Life Saving helicopter, the Salvation Army, and Roads and Traffic Authority and State Rail Authority personnel
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was the result of the intensive training they undergo to be ready for such major accidents. The superb effort of the rescuers was the reason that all the injured were on their way to hospital for treatment within as short a time as humanly possible after the accident, having regard to the location and the dangerous circumstances in which it occurred.
I also take this opportunity to extend my deep sympathy to the relatives of the elderly woman killed in the accident and wish a speedy and complete recovery to all the injured. I have been advised by the chairman of the State Rescue and Emergency Services Board, Mr Phil Koperberg, who was at the scene of the accident some time after it happened, that he was most impressed with the excellent response by all the rescue units involved. He said the effectiveness of the response was the result of the fine work being carried out by the local emergency management committee. I am extremely pleased that the committee has been able to demonstrate its effectiveness in co-ordinating such a major rescue operation. The planning undertaken by this committee and the control of the operation under the local emergency management controller, and the harmony which obviously exists between all the rescue agencies, is the result of the Government's re-organisation of rescue and emergency management since 1989, and we can all be very proud of it.
UNIVERSITY ANTI-DISCRIMINATION ACT COVERAGE
The Hon. JAN BURNSWOODS: My question is directed to the Minister for Education and Youth Affairs, and Minister for Employment and Training. Is the Minister aware of concerns that the Government is planning to remove universities from coverage under the Anti-Discrimination Act? Will the Minister ensure that universities remain as institutions covered by this Act? If not, why not?
The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: As the Minister responsible for the legislation which governs universities, I can assure the honourable member that I have not been burning the midnight oil in relation to any amendments to the Anti-Discrimination Act. At this stage no such amendments have been discussed with me. However, I will discuss the matter with my colleague the Attorney General, and Minister for Industrial Relations to ascertain whether consideration is being given to any such amendments. Even if it is, it would be at an early stage. As I said, no discussion has been held with me as the responsible Minister, no discussion has taken place in Cabinet, and I have done no work in that regard.
NEW ENGLAND AND LISMORE UNIVERSITIES
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. PEZZUTTI: I direct my question without notice to the Minister for Education and Youth Affairs, and Minister for Employment and Training. Can the Minister indicate the timetable for the disamalgamation of the University of New England and the establishment of an independent university at Lismore?
The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: The answer is no.
BIRKLEY COTTAGE YOUTH REFUGE
The Hon. DOROTHY ISAKSEN: I direct my question without notice to the Minister for Education and Youth Affairs, and Minister for Employment and Training, representing the Minister for Community Services, and Assistant Minister for Health. Is the Minister aware of the proposed closure of the youth refuge in Manly known as
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Birkley Cottage? As Birkley Cottage is the only therapeutic residential service working with street kids in the 15 year to 19 year age range in the Manly Warringah and Pittwater areas, are alternative services being provided to replace Birkley Cottage? If so, where?
The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: The honourable member will understand that I must refer a question which is so specific and which contains such detail to my colleague. I will seek a reply, which I am sure my colleague will provide himself.
HIGHER SCHOOL CERTIFICATE FEMALE STUDENT PERFORMANCE
The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: My question without notice is addressed to the Minister for Education and Youth Affairs, and Minister for Employment and Training. Does the Minister recall that in results from the 1991 higher school certificate, male students outnumbered female students by three to two - that is 59 per cent to 41 per cent - in the top 500 places? Although this result was a slight improvement on that of the previous year, does it reflect a continuing underrepresentation of females to males in the top 500 places? Is it the Minister's view that girls are less intelligent than boys, or are strategies being undertaken to address this issue? If the latter is the case, do these strategies include according a fairer allocation of high marks to humanities subjects, particularly English?
The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I know the Hon. Dr Marlene Goldsmith has taken a deep interest in this issue for a long period. However, I must say with respect that in my view the statistics she has given do not totally represent the entire picture because they are rather narrow. If one looks at the overall performance of the 1991 higher school certificate examination, one sees a quite different picture. At that examination the average tertiary entrance ranking for girls was greater than that for boys. That means that overall girls performed better at the higher school certificate examination than boys. It is also worth noting that girls topped the State in more than twice as many individual courses as boys. I know the participation of girls in three-unit and four-unit mathematics is a matter of interest to the honourable member. The results that flow from that participation form the basis of much of the criticism she has been airing in recent times of the structure of the higher school certificate. Although the participation of girls in three-unit and four-unit mathematics is less than that of boys, the results of the girls who take these courses show that they are doing just as well as the boys.
In the tertiary entrance ranking calculations currently being undertaken by Sydney University, it is possible that as many as eight of the best 10 units included may be mathematics and science, as the results in these subjects are highly intercorrelated. Students who perform well in one of those subjects will also be likely to perform well in the other subjects. It is that linkage which may have the effect that concerns the honourable member, because the same cannot be said of many of the humanities subjects, which do not have that same intercorrelation that is evident in mathematics and the science subjects. As the honourable member is aware, many aspects of her concerns are shared by me and the Board of Studies. She is aware that the Board of Studies is at present reviewing its procedures involving the relationship between these subjects. Other people, particularly those in university circles, have taken a longstanding and often public interest in this matter. The calculation of the tertiary entrance ranking on which the top 500 merit list is based is not my responsibility or the responsibility of the Board of Studies. Perhaps some of the academics at the universities should examine the procedures they use to calculate the tertiary entrance ranking if they wish to mitigate some of the discrepancies that they believe exist. At present the universities are proposing a number of modifications to the tertiary entrance ranking calculations. Among those is the possible inclusion of one-unit English in future tertiary entrance ranking calculations.
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PRIVATE HOSPITAL PATIENT TREATMENT
The Hon. B. H. VAUGHAN: I direct my question without notice to the Minister for Justice, Minister for Emergency Services, Minister Assisting the Premier, and Vice-President of the Executive Council, representing the Minister for Health. I ask the Minister whether he has seen the following in the issue of Australian Medicine, the news magazine of the Australian Medical Association, dated 5th October:
Executive Council has agreed that any patients treated in private hospitals should be recognised by their doctors as private patients for both professional services and professional fees.
In the event that Port Macquarie hospital or any other hospital is privatised, will the Government support this resolution of the Executive Council of the Australian Medical Association?
The Hon. E. P. PICKERING: The Deputy Leader of the Opposition will not be surprised to learn that I have not read the resolution. However, I will pass the detail of the question to my colleague in the other place.
KANGAROO AND EMU MEAT SALES
The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: I ask the Minister for Justice, Minister for Emergency Services, Minister Assisting the Premier, and Vice-President of the Executive Council, representing the Minister for Health: was kangaroo and emu meat sold illegally at the Ku-ring-gai Wildflower Gardens last Saturday with the permission of the Ku-ring-gai Shire council? If kangaroo and emu meat was sold illegally, what action was taken against the council?
The Hon. E. P. PICKERING: That is not a matter uppermost in my mind. I shall refer it to the relevant Minister, though I am not sure who that is.
TAFE COURSES FOR THE INTELLECTUALLY DISABLED
The Hon. R. D. DYER: I ask the Minister for Education and Youth Affairs, and Minister for Employment and Training a question without notice. Having regard to the present emphasis on vocational training in TAFE colleges, is the Minister aware of the lack of appropriate courses for people with moderate to severe levels of intellectual disability? Will the Minister ensure that the Government's responsibility to provide relevant courses is met by directing resources to meet the needs of young people with such moderate or severe levels of disability?
The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I would be delighted to ensure that the Hon. R. D. Dyer is made aware of the significant number of extra courses and equity courses available throughout TAFE in New South Wales for people who may have an intellectual disability, of whatever level, but also for many other disadvantaged groups, whether they happen to be made up of people of non-English speaking background or women who have been out of the work force, who perhaps have a particularly low level of education but who wish to enter the work force. I am proud to say that a very strong sense of equity and social conscience pervades the culture of TAFE. As I have said in answer to similar questions asked by the honourable member, and indeed many other people over a long period, I would not be so bold as to say that no more needs to be done; there is enough; there are not better ways in which people can undertake current
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activities. However, to balance this matter, I believe that in all fairness it is important to recognise the great and significant effort that has already been undertaken. I am happy to consider specific areas of vocational activity or pre-vocational activity undertaken by TAFE or areas that relate to a particular geographic area in relation to which the honourable member considers there is a deficiency in this regard. I am more than happy to assist within the resources already available, if that is possible. However, at this stage it would be incorrect to create an impression that a strong commitment is not being made to this area and that very little has been done. Much has been done, though I concede that more needs to be done.
BLUE MOUNTAINS PET REGISTRATION CHARGES
The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: My question without notice is directed to the Minister for Planning, and Minister for Housing, representing the Minister for Local Government, and Minister for Cooperatives. Is the Minister aware of the rumours circulating in the Blue Mountains that the Blue Mountains City Council intends to impose grossly excessive registration fees for dogs and cats, of the order of $100 per annum for animals and a $1,000 fine for contravention of the new regulations? In view of the fact that many people living in the Blue Mountains are older and have animals as companions, does the Minister deny that a licence fee of $100 will have to be paid by those people in the future?
The Hon. R. J. WEBSTER: Like the Hon. Elisabeth Kirkby, I am a cat and dog lover and I view with concern the information that she has delivered to me. However, as most honourable members would be aware, many of those matters fall within the ambit of local government; they are outside State government control. I will seek from my colleague the Minister for Local Government, and Minister for Cooperatives information about his powers to intervene if such exorbitant charges are levied by the council, and I will respond to the honourable member in detail.
VOCATIONAL EDUCATION AND TRAINING AGENCY
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. PEZZUTTI: My question without notice is directed to the Minister for Education and Youth Affairs, and Minister for Employment and Training. Will the Minister inform the House about the establishment of the New South Wales Vocational Education and Training Agency? What are the aims and objectives of this important new body?
The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Recently I announced the establishment of a central agency to co-ordinate the activities of vocational education and training institutions in New South Wales. The new body called the New South Wales Vocational Education and Training Agency - VETA - will manage the State's training systems and provide a single voice for New South Wales at national discussions on vocational training. The State Premiers and the Prime Minister have agreed to establish the Australian National Training Authority - ANTA - in order to create a genuinely national system of vocational education and training. VETA will place New South Wales in a position to meet all the objectives of this national agreement - acting as a conduit between the national authority - ANTA - and the various State institutions. An interim board for VETA, headed by Sir Nicholas Shehadie, will be set up to ensure that the agency is fully effective and has the endorsement of all concerned. I emphasise that this is not another management review of TAFE or of the Department of Industrial Relations, Employment, Training and Further Education; nor am I interested in simply injecting another layer of bureaucracy. Rather, we will be building on the excellent work that has made this State a clear leader in vocational education and training.
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VETA will be a strong central agency which will effectively plan and co-ordinate future developments and healthy competitive markets for training delivery. Other members of the interim board of VETA include the following: Dr Col Gellatly, Director-General of the Department of Industrial Relations, Employment, Training and Further Education and Chairman of the Industrial and Commercial Training Council; Mr Warren Grimshaw, Executive Director of the Ministry of Education and Youth Affairs; Dr Sandra Humphrey, the Chairperson of the Vocational Education and Training Accreditation Board; Mr Brian Jones, the manager of training and development at Email; and Dr Gregor Ramsey, Managing Director of the TAFE Commission. Vocational education and training is increasingly becoming a vital component of education in New South Wales. The role of VETA is crucial in ensuring that New South Wales students are receiving the best possible vocational education.
GIO PRIVATISATION
The Hon. Dr MEREDITH BURGMANN: My question without notice is directed to the Leader of the Government in this House, representing the Minister for Finance, Assistant Treasurer, and Minister for Ethnic Affairs. Is it true that the Australian Securities Commission has denied a statement made by the Minister for Finance that the Australian Securities Commission had given the GIO float a clean bill of health? Is the Australian Securities Commission investigating the GIO's subsidiaries, GIO Life and GIO Unit Trusts, for illegally buying and trading in up to $3 million worth of shares?
The Hon. E. P. PICKERING: Obviously I am not in a position to answer such a detailed question. I will refer it to the responsible Minister.
GOULBURN POLICE ACADEMY
The Hon. ELAINE NILE: I direct my question without notice to the Minister for Justice, Minister for Emergency Services, Minister Assisting the Premier, and Vice-President of the Executive Council, representing the Minister for Police. Is it a fact that there has been a recommendation that the Police Academy at Goulburn be moved as the many buildings are not being utilised by a relatively small number of police cadets? Will the Government give assurances that the Police Academy will not be closed or moved, and indicate what plans it has for utilising the Goulburn site for the training of ambulance officers and other community services?
The Hon. E. P. PICKERING: I am not currently Minister for Police, though until a short time ago I was. I assure the House that at the time when I was Minister no thought was given to closing the Police Academy at Goulburn. I am aware, as I am sure other honourable members are aware, a report was released recently by the Auditor-General, the thrust of which was that there were excessive academy resources in various institutions within the State and that it might be appropriate to combine them at the Goulburn academy. I cannot imagine how one can draw conclusions from the report to support what has just been said by the honourable member. I am sure that the Government will read the Auditor-General's Report and consider it carefully.
IRON GATES DEVELOPMENT PTY LIMITED
The Hon. JAN BURNSWOODS: My question without notice is addressed to the Minister for Planning, and Minister for Housing. What action is the Government taking to have Iron Gates Development Pty Limited remedy the damage it has caused to
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Crown land situated next to its development site at Evans Head? Further, should a new development application succeed, will the Minister ensure that the company's activities on the site are monitored closely so that it is unable to repeat its illegal activities?
The Hon. R. J. WEBSTER: The saga of Iron Gates Development Pty Limited goes back to the time when the Leader of the Opposition in another place was the responsible Minister. It is fair to say that the development has had a chequered history. The development application by Iron Gates Development Pty Limited is a matter for the local council, and I hope that the honourable member is not suggesting that I should intervene in a local planning matter. The honourable member may be interested in the fact that an application was made for a heritage order over the development but it was declined by the Heritage Council. I am not sure what the honourable member is driving at with her question, but I shall give her some brief facts on the background to the development. On 29th November, 1991, the Richmond-Evans Environmental Society Incorporated requested me and the chairman of the Heritage Council to make a 40-day stopwork order under section 136 of the Heritage Act over the Iron Gates Development site. A conservation order under the Heritage Act was also requested. At the time of the request a Land and Environment Court injunction was in force pending the hearing of a challenge to the validity of the council's consent for subdivision. Because of the injunction a section 136 order was unnecessary.
The court held that the consent had lapsed. This decision was upheld on 12th June by the Court of Appeal. The consent lapsed because the developer had not completed an access road through an SEPP 14 wetland in the 14 months available. This was a precondition to starting a subdivision. A new consent would be needed for the subdivision to proceed. On 5th March the Heritage Council considered the matter and resolved to allow the developer to modify the proposal to lessen the effects on wildlife. On 2nd July the Heritage Council considered the modified proposal and resolved that the habitat values of the site were recognised but were not significant enough to warrant an order under the Heritage Act. That decision was endorsed by the National Parks and Wildlife Service. As I understand it, the developer is now preparing a new development application for the subdivision proposal.
IRON GATES DEVELOPMENT PTY LIMITED
The Hon. JAN BURNSWOODS: I ask the Minister a supplementary question. Due to the company's past illegal activity to which the Minister referred, will the Minister now monitor the activities of the development concerned?
The Hon. R. J. WEBSTER: The honourable member is trying to make mischief. The truth is the developer has struggled for about 18 years to try to develop some land, which development, I am told by the local member, has the support of about 99.95 per cent of the community. As I said, I am not sure what the honourable member is driving at, other than trying to pander to the extreme wishes of a fringe group of people who seem to oppose everything and who would rather live in a cave than a house. I have nothing further to add to my answer.
ALLEGED CLOSURE OF TELECOM DEPOTS
The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: I ask the Minister for Justice, Minister for Emergency Services, Minister Assisting the Premier, and Vice-President of the Executive Council, representing the Premier, and Treasurer, a question without notice. Is the
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Minister aware that Telecom intends closing 18 depots in rural New South Wales in the next four years? Will this have a significant effect on some small rural communities? Will the Minister ask the Premier to request Telecom to re-examine its decision?
The Hon. E. P. PICKERING: The answer to the first part of the question is no. The answer to the second part of the question is that I would suspect so. In answer to the third part of the question, it is a Federal matter but, given that the Premier is sympathetic about questions of unemployment in this desperate economic climate, created by a Labor Government in Canberra, I will refer that part of the question to the Premier to ascertain whether he can lend some assistance during this depression that we had to have.
GOODS AND SERVICES TAX
The Hon. DOROTHY ISAKSEN: I direct my question without notice to the Minister for Planning, and Minister for Housing, representing the Minister for Sport, Recreation and Racing. Is the Minister aware of an article that appeared in yesterday's Daily Telegraph Mirror in which horse trainer Dr Geoff Chapman warned that if a goods and services tax were introduced trainers would leave the industry in droves; that it would be like playing two-up where the House gets 15 per cent? What contingency plans are being taken by the Government to save this industry?
The Hon. R. J. WEBSTER: I will not dignify the question with a response.
FORMER PSYCHIATRIC INSTITUTION PATIENTS IN PRISONS
The Hon. Dr MEREDITH BURGMANN: My question without notice is directed to the Minister for Justice, Minister for Emergency Services, Minister Assisting the Premier, and Vice-President of the Executive Council. Is it true that because of a lack of government funding for back-up resources, a large percentage of prisoners in New South Wales gaols are former residents of psychiatric institutions? Are these people in prison at the Governor's pleasure for no other reason than that society cannot otherwise cope with them?
The Hon. E. P. PICKERING: I do not have precisely in my mind the percentage of prisoners who are psychiatrically disturbed, although at a recent briefing the nature of prisoners was drawn to my attention. However, I have not retained that figure in my head. Problems for law enforcement have been created across the board by the actions of the previous Labor Government when, by an extraordinarily insensitive move, it discontinued existing institutional support for these people. To a large extent those people were thrown on the street, which is very sad.
LAND TAX
The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: I ask the Minister for Justice, Minister for Emergency Services, Minister Assisting the Premier, and Vice-President of the Executive Council, representing the Premier, and Treasurer, a question without notice. Why is the Office of State Revenue charging interest at the rate of 20 per cent per annum for the late payment of land tax? This is an extortionate rate given that other interest rates are about half that figure. Will the Treasurer ensure that this rate is adjusted to current levels forthwith?
The Hon. E. P. PICKERING: I cannot confirm the veracity of the allegation contained in the honourable member's question. I will refer the matter to the responsible Minister in another place.
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COFFS HARBOUR CITY COUNCIL LEGAL FEES
The Hon. JAN BURNSWOODS: My question is directed to the Minister for Planning, and Minister for Housing. Does the Minister agree with the Minister for Conservation and Land Management, and Minister for Energy that councils are wasting too much money on legal battles? If so, will the Minister direct that Coffs Harbour City Council stop wasting taxpayers' funds on legal fees in relation to the Look at Me Now Headland ocean outfall?
The Hon. R. J. WEBSTER: I agree with the general statement that councils need to be careful about expenditure on legal matters. Some councils take decisions which lead to proposed developments being taken to the Land and Environment Court, where they are granted. Councils waste ratepayers' money defending decisions that in many cases are made contrary to the recommendation of its own town planning department. Other councils adopt the NIMBY syndrome or take the attitude that making decisions on these developments is too hard because it might make them unpopular. They might refuse a development which, when it goes to the Land and Environment Court, is approved. In that case, I think councils are wasting money. A classic example of that is Leichhardt council and the money it has wasted on the court cases involving the Balmain site.
The Hon. Dr Meredith Burgmann: The Minister should try to get to Balmain in all that traffic.
The Hon. R. J. WEBSTER: I suppose the honourable member lives in Balmain.
The Hon. Dr Meredith Burgmann: I live very near there.
The Hon. R. J. WEBSTER: That is a classic example. As the Hon. Dr Meredith Burgmann would know, when Leichhardt council last took me to court not only did it lose but also my costs were awarded against it as well. The unfortunate ratepayers of Leichhardt had to pay the Government's costs because of the irresponsible actions of their council. I am told that this year Leichhardt council will spend more money on legal fees than it will spend on child care. It might be better if the Hon. Dr Meredith Burgmann, instead of yelling out in the House, set the council straight on its priorities. I should have thought that child care was far more important than spending money on fruitless court cases.
The Hon. Dr Meredith Burgmann: There is no point having child care if one has sick kids.
The Hon. R. J. WEBSTER: They will be a lot sicker if those redundant industrial sites are left in place rather than being replaced by open space and proper housing. I am not sure whether the honourable member asked these questions as part of a fishing expedition. Some councils waste money on legal fees and some do not.
RED WATER FEVER
The Hon. R. J. WEBSTER: On 23rd September the Hon. J. R. Johnson asked a question about the outbreak of red water fever and what the Government was doing to control and eradicate this disease. Red water fever is in fact not a disease but a symptom of a number of diseases, specifically tick fever and leptospirosis. Red water fever, as it relates to tick fever, is essentially confined to Queensland, although one could be forgiven for thinking there had been an outbreak of the disease further south, specifically in the
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Sussex Street region of Sydney. Symptoms of the disease are a reddening of the face, which appears in the wake of poor property purchases. This first symptom of the disease appeared on the face of the vector of the disease into the Sydney region, Senator Stephen Loosley, following his clever dabble some years ago in the property market at 289-305 Sussex Street.
The second stage symptom then appeared when the owners of the site, the New South Wales Labor Party, plunged into the red. The level of this plunge - $9 million - was not helped by the fact that the purchase price for the site was $3.8 million, while its value today is only $1.6 million. This plunge into the red leads to the third stage symptom of the disease which prompts the reds, that is, the left-wing of the party, to begin seeing red and calling for the blood of the vector of the disease. The final result was that there was much red water in Sussex Street around the time of the Australian Labor Party conference in June this year as the vector, Senator Loosley, was killed off. The day after the Hon. J. R. Johnson asked the question in this House honourable members read in the Daily Telegraph Mirror of a trial treatment for this outbreak of red water fever in Sussex Street. The Labor Party is getting into the accommodation market with plans for an 18-storey apartment building on the site of the outbreak. To do this, however, it needs the land from its mates next door, the Seamen's Union and the Federation of Industrial Manufacturing and Employees Union, who all seem too eager to catch the same disease which my colleagues opposite know only too well.______
JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE UPON POLICE ADMINISTRATION
Personal Explanation
The Hon. Elisabeth Kirkby: I wish to make a personal explanation. Reverend the Hon. F. J. Nile, in the course of his remarks last night in the debate on the establishment of the Joint Select Committee upon Police Administration, said:
I do not understand the Hon. Elisabeth Kirkby's emotive remark that the New South Wales Police Service is out of control and is not accountable to the Parliament. That is completely untrue.
That remark appears on page 72 of yesterday's Hansard. It is also completely untrue that I said that the New South Wales Police Service is out of control and is not accountable to the Parliament. I have searched the Hansard of my remarks yesterday and the word "accountability" was used when I spoke about the reference of the joint select committee, and when I quoted from an editorial in the Sydney Morning Herald, from an article by Mr Peter Smark and from a letter I wrote to the Sydney Morning Herald that referred to Mr Peter Smark's article. At no time in my speech did I say that the Police Service in New South Wales was out of control. It would appear that the journalists who wrote the editorial in the Sydney Morning Herald and other articles in the Sydney Morning Herald believe that the Police Service should be more accountable. That is their opinion. I quoted from their opinion.
Reverend the Hon. F. J. Nile: As if you agreed with it.
The Hon. Elisabeth Kirkby: I agree that the Police Service should be accountable to the Parliament. But at no time have I said, nor have the journalists, that the Police Service in this State is out of control. I request Reverend the Hon. F. J. Nile to withdraw that accusation.
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SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT
Motion by the Hon. E. P. Pickering agreed to:
That this House at its rising today do adjourn until Tuesday, 27th October, 1992.
[The President left the chair at 1.8 p.m. The House resumed at 2.30 p.m.]
COMMUNITY BASED POLICING
The Hon. S. B. MUTCH [2.30]: I move:
That this House affirms its support for the principle of community based policing and in particular the introduction and enhancement of the beat police program by the Government.
The concept of community based policing is hardly new. In fact, it was the whole basis of the policing tradition established in 1829 in England by Sir Robert Peel. Peel said:
Police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.
The establishment of the first police service in England arose from concern that military regiments had been used on occasion to suppress citizens' rights. Deaths had occurred, and it was felt that a better way was called for to keep the peace. The idea developed that citizens drawn from the public should be called upon to establish public order. The adoption of the blue uniform as opposed to the traditional regimental red was a decision deliberately taken to signify that the keepers of the peace were essentially civilians. In the same spirit, police officers were not armed except for the use of a wooden baton. It is pleasing to me that that spirit continues in Britain today. However, despite the close nexus at the very beginning between the community and the police, policing in the twentieth century has, for a number of reasons, become increasingly reactive or responsive rather than preventive and community based. The reasons for this change are complex and debatable.
Perhaps some of the reasons for the change in policing relate to the advent of the motor car. When the major mode of travel in the city was by shank's pony, a fleeing criminal might be apprehended by a peeler afoot or on a bicycle. When the means of escape from apprehension became the motor vehicle and a new body of law was developed to deal with traffic offences the police naturally adopted and adapted to the new technology. It was reasoned that a patrol car with police identification, colours, flashing lights and siren made a very visible presence, although it was a presence from a distance. Over time, the philosophy that police were a part of the community and thus able to relate to the community was displaced by a culture that people were supposed to be impressed, in awe of police presence and in some cases intimidated by police presence. The police became a force, something to be feared, a deterrent to the potential criminal. That image, and indeed the created reality, was reinforced in many ways. It was reinforced in motion pictures, where the police always arrived in the nick of time to apprehend the escaping criminal, usually in a hail of bullets in the American version. In a paper entitled "The Concept of Community Based Policing" written by Assistant Commissioner Nixon of the New South Wales police in June 1988, the assistant commissioner said this about what he termed orthodox policing:
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It is based on a crime method - preventative patrol and rapid responses to calls for service - the effectiveness of which in controlling crime and reducing fear which has been called in to doubt by careful research.
(An analysis of calls to New South Wales police in the metropolitan area has revealed the following 1% are urgent requiring immediate response, 9% are priority and 90% are service calls)
The assistant commissioner continued:
An increasing amount of evidence indicates that citizens' fears are triggered more by street disorder, violence and incivility than by actual experience with fraud, organised crime, etc.
The old system deliberately cuts the police off from close relationships with citizens at both individual and community levels, despite clear evidence that police effectiveness in controlling crime and apprehending offenders depends crucially on citizens' willingness to help the police.
The assistant commissioner also noted that after World War II staff shortages meant that policing strategy was gradually removed to crime fighting and that as a consequence "methods for designing beats and patrol sectors changed from matching them to neighbourhood boundaries, to mathematical formula designed to equalise calls for service", and that "police departments shifted from geographically decentralised organisations in which accountability was maintained through informal control exerted by front-line supervisors, to functionally defined organisations in which accountability was centralised at police headquarters and maintained through a formal centralised system". Policing throughout the world was in a rut. Even in Britain, where the tradition of community policing began, the American influence of fast cars and reactive policing had caught on. But crime was not getting better; it was getting worse. In New South Wales this conundrum had become very apparent to a visionary police officer by the name of John Avery. In 1981 Inspector John Avery published a book entitled Police: Force or Service as his Master of Arts thesis. In that seminal work John Avery succinctly analysed the sociological and demographic factors behind the breakdown of community policing as it once existed. The major factors he identified were the shift from country borough living to urbanisation and the concomitant increase in specialisation of function, which meant that the average citizen no longer shared in the protection of his neighbourhood but, rather, the function of protector devolved to specialists.
Inspector Avery described how early policing in Australia from the beginning of European settlement was not rooted in the concept of citizen participation but police were professionals who served full-time. Professional police were brought out from England to serve in the Sydney district police force, the mounted police and border police. The mounted police dealt with bushrangers, and the border police strove to keep the peace between the Aboriginal people and the European settlers. The first police force established by Governor Macquarie in 1810 under the supervision of Darcy Wentworth was set up well before the peelers, but according to Avery there was no evidence of citizen participation. In the paper I have cited already Assistant Commissioner Nixon said that the basic strategies of policing had to be questioned and changed and momentum generated. That momentum came from a group of people who share responsibility for shaping police strategies, primarily police executives supported by the Government and the community. I think Assistant Commissioner Nixon was speaking about the inspiration of one man, John Avery, whose influence is being felt deeply today in the running of the New South Wales police force. It is no secret that that driving force in the quantum leap required to transform policing in this State came from Mr Avery, who wrote in his book:
It is contended that if law enforcement is the role of the citizen assisted by well trained police then the emphasis should be on the police officer closest to the community, the one that
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provides services as well as endeavours to protect from harm.
Years ago the Lusher commission of inquiry revealed a police force in New South Wales that was inefficiently managed and structured, poorly trained, tolerant of corruption to an unacceptable degree, and basically unresponsive to the community. That Lusher inquiry called for a completely new direction in policing in this State. In August 1984 John Avery was appointed commissioner, indeed by the former Labor Government. I notice that not one member of the ALP is in the Chamber. That absence demonstrates something about the Opposition's attitude to parliamentary process and about its equivocal approach to community policing in this State. The Opposition's response to the beat policing initiative has been fairly negative. I think the Opposition is disappointed by its success, though I know individual members would probably support the concept.
The Hon. Virginia Chadwick: Opposition members are probably too embarrassed to come to the Chamber.
The Hon. S. B. MUTCH: They are probably too embarrassed to come, as the Minister interjects, because they have been led up the garden path or left up the creek without a paddle by the honourable member for Liverpool, the Opposition spokesman on law and order.
The Hon. Virginia Chadwick: He is running for the leadership.
The Hon. S. B. MUTCH: From what I can gather the honourable member for Liverpool will probably be the next leader of the ALP, but that will not do very much for him. A person who can make ill-considered and derogatory initial comments about the concept of beat policing does not have the breadth of vision required to bring the ALP in this State out of the doldrums. The Opposition will not have much solace if it changes leadership to the honourable member for Liverpool. John Avery, on becoming commissioner in 1984, moved fairly quickly to begin to implement his beliefs that the police should be a service rather than a force. The challenge he faced in repositioning police in New South Wales should never be underestimated. The aim was to change what was the unfortunate reality of the day, a force predicated on a certain culture and mind set. That is no criticism of members of the force who served in it, but the policy was that the force involved itself in punitive action, possessed authority and therefore conveyed authoritarian attitudes. The main emphasis of the police was on the pursuit, capturing and charging of criminals in response and reaction to crime. John Avery wanted to change that emphasis to one based on community interaction, the prevention of crime and problem solving.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti: That was an original concept.
The Hon. S. B. MUTCH: As the Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti interjects, that was an original idea, though it was just the beginnings of the concept of community policing in place when police forces were first instituted. It is amazing how far police forces have strayed from the simplistic but innovative concept. The old attitude engendered a closed ranks ethos. Many of the problems found in the police force were rooted in that ethos.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti: Remnants of that attitude remain.
The Hon. S. B. MUTCH: Remnants of that attitude remain but are
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disappearing. In those days the police had an attitude of "them" against "us" and that "they" had to be watched by the police. The police force was a military-type system in which directions were given and orders obeyed, discipline enforced and mistakes not allowed. That meant that no mistakes were admitted. That mentality was not progressive but was natural for those times. The Hon. J. R. Johnson shows some interest in the democratic process in this State by his presence in the Chamber. I do not know where the rest of his colleagues are but I am appreciative that I am now able to address at least one member opposite. I am told by the Minister that the colleagues of the Hon. J. R. Johnson were attending factional meetings. I knew something was in the wind but I did not know it was imminent. The honourable member for Liverpool may have to be retitled. What is needed in a police force in a modern society is openness and a willingness to accept the making of mistakes but to learn from them.
Police in New South Wales, and throughout the world, were previously an unknown quantity and intimidating to the average person. They were represented by the uniform, and policemen adopted a fairly cold and distant approach. Commissioner Avery wanted to develop a community relationship in which people were familiar with the policeman, were not afraid to see him walking down the street, and might even know him by name. The police were to be approachable so that information could come to them in order that they could better serve the community. They were to be from the community and an essential part of it; they were to be friendly to people in the community, who could offer advice and assist them. The concept involved citizens and the Police Service sharing responsibility, a concept of working together. That is what community-based policing is all about. The present Police Service mission statement incorporates the whole strategy of community-based policing - police and the community working together to produce a safer environment by reducing violence, crime and fear.
The police serve the community - a neighbourhood, a suburb, a town or the whole State, depending on the problem to be tackled. At one end of the spectrum community police work with residents to address street crime. At the other end of the spectrum the commissioner might convene a working party comprising other agencies and business to address a major problem, for example car theft. Community-based policing essentially has three pillars. The first is police working with the community to identify local problems, using intelligence surveys and consultation. The second is police working with the community to solve problems through community programs. The third is obtaining the right mix of public and private resources and applying them to provide a solution. Toward this end a number of things were required, one of which was a values system. Values were needed to ensure that police operated within an ethical framework in accordance with the statement of values under which no form of corruption is tolerated. A second aspect is regionalisation. Centralised and distant command functions were decentralised to local command structures. The deliberate urban-rural mix in the various police regions ensures an equitable distribution of police and resources and a wide cross-section of experience. Regionalisation avoids the old problem of the country-city dichotomy, with policing in the city being very different from that in the country. In addition, regionalisation also works against corruption. When a centralised squad can take over functions at local level, this lends itself to corruption. Regionalisation of functions has assisted in the minimisation of corruption opportunities.
Decentralisation of the force also ensures that the 175 patrols are responsible for the delivery of the whole range of police services. It empowers local commanders to make operational, budgetary and managerial decisions. The Government has concentrated on recruiting more police officers and attracting to the Police Service people with higher qualifications. More graduates are entering the force, and the Government is also seeking
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a reflection of the composition of the community by attracting women and ethnic recruits so that the Police Service will be more responsive to the community. A major aspect of the seminal changes to policing in New South Wales was the introduction of the police recruit education program, with its emphasis on executive development, management, supervisory training, and enhancement of police technical skills - a mixture of academic and practical training. Promotion on merit was introduced in 1984, and now applies to all police and civilian supervisory and management positions. The police culture in New South Wales has changed from being insular and defensive to having a more open and outward looking focus. Truly the force has become a service.
Public scrutiny and community surveys present the opportunity to manage the process towards greater responsiveness to community needs. I have the results of a survey conducted by Frank Small and Associates entitled "New South Wales Community Service Update, July 1988-September 1991". It has interesting things to say in its overview of the findings in relation to the Police Service. It states that about 85 per cent of people strongly endorse the concept of greater interaction with police officers. Community concerns about neighbourhood crime have fallen steadily since 1988, which is very good. Since 1988 fear of victimisation has decreased in relation to most property crime, social disorder issues and violent crime. New South Wales police have now reversed a general decline in their visibility since 1988. Police-citizen contact is shifting more to seeking assistance or making an inquiry, rather than stressful contact. Although car patrols and traffic law enforcement are a major element in police visibility, foot patrols and friendly conversations with people are also significant and growing elements in increasing police visibility. The survey stated that more than one in three people could remember seeing, reading or hearing about local police services and activities, and local newspapers are the main vehicle for this type of visibility. People applaud the local police continuing this type of local public communications effort. These are positive findings.
Harder evidence of the change of attitudes is that in many areas we are starting to beat crime. It must be borne in mind that this is against a background of recession - recession which the Prime Minister in his arrogance and disaffection with the community said we had to have. We have now been advised that the recession is finished, but it is undisputed that we are still in recession. The latest information I have from the New South Wales Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research is dated 12th December, 1991. It shows that the recorded number of break, enter and steal offences fell by 7.7 per cent - in the middle of a recession. The figure for household break-ins was 11.4 per cent. The report also says:
The decrease in the number of break, enter and steal offences recorded by police is confirmed in the results of the Australian Bureau of Statistics Household Crime and Safety survey which shows a significant drop in attempted burglary offences.
The report continues:
The drop in recorded break, enter and steal offences was most marked in areas which have traditionally had high rates of this offence.
Something is working. Obviously statistics are difficult - one never jumps to too many conclusions when looking at statistics - but I do not think anyone could deny that those results are fairly good. I have no doubt that this achievement has much to do with community-based policing and programs such as Neighbourhood Watch, Business Watch, Marine Watch and other activities. The important part of this is the beat policing program, which was introduced by this Government and for which it can claim credit.
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The Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti: The Opposition said it would not work.
The Hon. S. B. MUTCH: The Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti accuses the Opposition of saying that beat policing would not work. I think he is really saying that the Opposition hoped it would not work. Beat policing is very much a creation of this Government, and is part of its philosophy. I give full praise where it is due, to the Hon. Ted Pickering; beat policing was very much a pet program of his.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti: The police said it would not work either.
The Hon. S. B. MUTCH: Some elements did. In a large organisation some elements will always be resistant to change. Habits comfort people, but a change in outlook was needed. The Hon. Ted Pickering has been a catalyst for changes in the Police Service. Beat policing is one change in which he was very much involved. To its regret, the Opposition has to admit that beat policing has been a major success; it is one reason for the downturn in some types of crime. It is one of the aspects of community-based policing which has proved to be a major success. Beat policing is a flexible and responsive means of providing a police service to the community. It is different from foot patrols, which are similar to the old system of police walking around, letting the community see them, letting the community know they are about, and thus, hopefully, preventing crime. Beat policing develops that concept 100 per cent. It is about active involvement between police and members of the community to improve the quality of life by working together to establish a safer environment.
Whereas a foot patrol officer might wander around anywhere, officers on beat patrols target a specific area. Because they develop a personal relationship with the people in that area, they get to know them. That is one way of obtaining information. All honourable members know that the most crucial part of policing is intelligence gathering. Beat policing is succeeding in relation to intelligence gathering. The police and the community are getting together to help solve crimes. Most crimes are solved only with the benefit of intelligence from members of the community. In 1989-90 different models of beat policing were trialed in three metropolitan police patrols - Surry Hills, Liverpool and Campbelltown. The undoubted success of those trials and the overwhelming acceptance of the beat policing style of policing resulted in the State Government approving the recruitment of 1,000 additional police to the beat policing program during a two-year period.
The allocation of beat police commenced in April 1990. A task force and working party were established to oversight the program's implementation and to investigate integration and resource needs, including education, industrial implications, equipment, legislation, intelligence and marketing. Beat policing is now included in all in-service training courses, including the police recruit education program, PREP, the patrol commander's course, first-line commander's course, potential crime investigator's course, and intelligence officer's course. As at 15th June, the number of beat police positions filled was 940. That is about one-twelfth of the overall operational human resources of the Police Service. The beat policing program is currently in operation in 155 of the 180 police patrols in New South Wales. At the last State election the Government undertook to increase the program by an additional 300 positions during the three years from the date of the election. The objectives of beat policing are to make people feel safer by reducing violence, crime and fear, to improve community-police relations and to inspire and encourage initiative in policing. As I said, beat policing is essentially intelligence driven. At times the program uses that intelligence to dictate areas for effective patrols. It services community-based policing programs such as
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Neighbourhood Watch and Safety House, and gives safety advice to the elderly. Areas in which beat policing is effective have had marked decreases in the overall incidence of crime and fear levels. The Opposition might try to deny that, but it has been fairly well substantiated.
The Hon. Judith Walker: Pardon my ignorance, but I do not have any statistics to prove what the Hon. S. B. Mutch is saying.
The Hon. S. B. MUTCH: If the Hon. Judith Walker listens, I will give her some interesting statistics.
The Hon. Judith Walker: I do not know anything about statistics. There are lies, damn lies and statistics.
The Hon. S. B. MUTCH: If the Hon. Judith Walker will not believe the statistics, I will not bother. The beat policing program has also resulted in an increase in the amount of information and intelligence gathered. Different models of beat policing suit different circumstances. The difference in these models is based on the demographics and geography of the different police patrols. The amount of intelligence and information gathered, the number of crimes reported and the degree to which fear in the community is reduced determine the size and composition of the beat and the way it is worked. As a result, beat police will operate differently at, for example, Surry Hills, Kings Cross, Maroubra, Campbelltown, Wagga Wagga and Tamworth. In different areas the approach to beat policing will be different. It is pleasing to know that police cadets are now participating in beat policing as part of their police recruitment and education program.
During 1990 an evaluation study of PREP for student police and probationary constables canvassed the possibility of probationary constables working beats. The programs branch developed an initiative that was put before the commissioner and the senior executive group in November 1990 and approved. The police academy has since developed guidelines to enable probationary constables to perform beat duties. Those guidelines set out where beats are available. For the first eight weeks of the buddy training system, probationary constables can work on beats. While they are on the beats, probationary constables work with a field training officer. They may work for 12 weeks of their first year on beats. That format for recruit training substantially supports the principal operational strategy of the Police Service in relation to community-based policing. It also gives probationary constables an informative but supportive learning environment in respect of proactive and problem-solving policing and interacting with the community they serve.
The Hon. Judith Walker: That is straight from the textbook.
The Hon. S. B. MUTCH: Why is it that the Opposition is so against beat policing?
The Hon. Judith Walker: We are not against beat policing. I do not know where you get that idea.
The Hon. S. B. MUTCH: I am pleased to hear that you are in favour of beat policing. I would like you to explain that to the honourable member for Liverpool.
The Hon. Judith Walker: He has probably been misquoted. You have got it wrong.
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The Hon. S. B. MUTCH: I hope I have. I should like to believe that the Opposition -
The Hon. J. H. Jobling: He is a potential leader.
The Hon. S. B. MUTCH: He is a potential leader and I should like to believe that the Opposition would unanimously support the Government in respect of the motion.
The Hon. Judith Walker: He is a potential leader of what?
The Hon. S. B. MUTCH: The Opposition. You will never be the Government, I can assure you. The program for probationary constables provides a balance of experienced police and probationary police on general duties.
The Hon. Judith Walker: Why not put it plainly so that we can all understand it? It is part of general duty policing.
The Hon. S. B. MUTCH: That is right. I believe the honourable member is very supportive of the concept and I applaud her for it.
The Hon. Judith Walker: I understood this was a supportive motion all round. I did not know there was to be a situation where we have a position and you have a position. I propose to put my position very clearly.
The Hon. S. B. MUTCH: Hopefully, you will support the motion. Information is collated from monthly returns submitted by beat supervisors. The information indicates to supervisors the type and regularity of duties performed by beat police. It also indicates the problems they address, issues raised by information collected, and issues raised by the community. Clearly, beat police are general duties police. They are general duties police who work in uniform on shifts conducive to their respective beats. Beat police can and do work shifts at any time of the day or night on any day of the week. The demographics of the beat and current information will determine their actual work function. At times they may also work in plain clothes. They also can, and do, co-ordinate special operations on information received. It is interesting to note that at times they become mobile in cars or on pushbikes, which is very gratifying to see.
The Hon. Judith Walker: They have bikes in Newcastle.
The Hon. S. B. MUTCH: They have them in Newcastle, do they? Bicycles have proved to be a very effective aspect of law enforcement. In some areas mountain bikes are used to cover rough terrain. They are really taking to the pushbikes with a will, which goes to prove that the whole idea of beat policing is very adaptive. There are a number of examples of pushbikes being used by police patrols and how effective they are in the fight against crime. It is important to show that police are using whatever technology is necessary to get the job done. If they need to get on a pushbike to get around, if that is the most effective way to do the job, they certainly are doing it. The police on the beat become community characters and very well known by the community. It is pleasing to note the number of community activities they perform. For instance, they have barbecues and sausage sizzles and so on. The honourable member for Eastwood in another place, Andrew Tink, told me today that he attended a sausage sizzle with local beat police on Tuesday morning. The sausage sizzle was held at the railway station, near the ticket office. They supplied sausages, onions and bread for breakfast, and the response was not just a few but in the hundreds - though I am not sure how
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people turned up for work. Senior Sergeant Glenn Ashurst was the key officer involved in organising that function, under his superior, Chief Inspector Carl Hermanson. Those officers should be applauded for that activity.
Andrew Tink has told me that several hundred people attended the sausage sizzle at Eastwood. It was co-sponsored by the Weekly Times, and McDonalds provided some beverages. It was a tremendous initiative and is being repeated all over New South Wales, because of the Government's commitment to the concept of community-based policing. It is gratifying to see the number of initiatives that are occurring as a result of beat policing, even if they are not all successful. I noted in the Police Service weekly magazine dated 22nd July, 1991, that a Sergeant Arthur Aleksandrowicz of Campsie beat police suggested an innovative scheme called postie watch, which is presently undergoing a trial. The advantage of postie watch is that postal employees are out and about during the day, when a considerable amount of crime occurs. They have been provided with forms and, if they do see something suspicious, they complete a standard Neighbourhood Watch incident report, which they deliver to the local beat police for action.
A whole host of schemes have emerged from beat policing, which indicates initiative on the part of a number of officers of the Police Service. A lot of those are really worth a try, and some are working very well. I also noted that Maitland police have established a community watch column in the Maitland Mercury, the local newspaper. The provision of information to the public is to be commended, and it is a two-way street - information comes in, information goes out. The number of initiatives indicates a high level of job satisfaction by the officers involved in beat policing. Some involve community workshops, where community concerns are canvassed; there are programs aimed at those leaving school, and at youths who are refusing to attend school. There have been significant programs in Wagga Wagga. In Fairfield, Bathurst, Burwood and Broken Hill, because of beat police initiatives, there are weekly radio programs, including radio talkback, weekly crime reports and daily activity reports. They are very much part of the communication process.
The Penrith police community has as an objective for Penrith to be drug free by 1993. To that end, articles are provided to the local newspapers, and people are requested to provide information to beat police, who then collate the information and initiate action. Blacktown police have initiated a program entitled business watch and an anti-motor vehicle theft operation in car parks and shopping centres, which has proved successful. At Kings Cross the elderly have been involved in community programs and at Fairfield beat police are introducing daylight Neighbourhood Watch meetings to encourage the involvement of the elderly. Very often a lot of older people are reluctant to attend meetings in the evening. I believe that is a natural fear for those people. Beat police also operate a number of shopfront police stations throughout the State, which brings the police closer to the community and provides easier access. At Campsie the police are involved with the community group Meals-on-Wheels and actually assist them. By doing so, they are able to check on the welfare of the community and to offer advice on crime prevention. It is pleasing to note that many honourable members support the beat police program. The honourable member for Bligh, Clover Moore, welcomed beat police to the Kings Cross area. In the Wentworth Courier of 9 May, 1990, she is reported as saying:
I welcomed the 25 new beat police to Kings Cross Police Station. I welcomed them to the most vital and diverse, yet toughest part of Sydney. These new young police officers will be involved only in foot patrol work and I told them that we are hoping that their presence on our streets will get street violence down, and ensure that people can move about their neighbourhood without fear of being mugged or bashed.
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It is pleasing that one of the non-aligned Independents supports the Government's initiative.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti: She is just a taker.
The Hon. S. B. MUTCH: By way of interjection the Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti said that she is just a taker, but most honourable members would be happy to take the 25 new beat police provided to that electorate by the Government. I was disappointed to read the Daily Telegraph Mirror editorial of 7th April, 1990, in which it was stated:
The return to large-scale beat policing in our suburbs is at least a step in the right direction . . . Labor Law and Order spokesman Peter Anderson is predictably cynical about the plan: he calls it "a PR exercise" doomed to failure because of the high rate of resignations from the NSW force.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti: That is why Opposition members were embarrassed about coming into the Chamber today.
The Hon. S. B. MUTCH: Yes, it really set them off on the wrong track, which was most unfortunate. Opposition members may be disgruntled about the success of the Government's initiative, but we are very proud of it.
The Hon. Virginia Chadwick: This is a great speech and well researched.
The Hon. S. B. MUTCH: I thank the Minister. It has been well researched. Assistant Commissioner Taylor, a dedicated and hard-working officer, and Kevin McNeil, the principal of the Police Academy, and I were most fortunate to have visit the Royal Canadian Mounted Police at Regina, Canada. We were most impressed. It is interesting to note that the Canadian police force is not based on community policing strategies. The Canadian police force had the opposite approach to that of the police force in England. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police has very much a military tradition. Its officers wear the uniform of the old-style military - the scarlet jacket and striped pants.
The Hon. Virginia Chadwick: They are very dashing.
The Hon. S. B. MUTCH: There is no doubt that they certainly attract a lot of attention. Their policing philosophy was based very much on enforcement. They were stationed on frontiers to protect settlers from incursions from the south. Unfortunately, this approach has been adopted by many other countries. However, the Canadian force is now adopting programs that relate very much to the community they serve and they are adapting to modern times. Some sections of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police carry out policing work in large metropolitan cities. In order to deal with the large populations in those cities it has been found that a community based policing strategy must be adopted, otherwise there would be conflagrations which occur in some American cities. It is pleasing that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police is changing to a community based policing strategy while still drawing on the traditions of the force. The Regina academy has a magnificent museum which houses an exhibition of its history, albeit edited, which dwells on the best aspects of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. When academy recruits visit that museum they are given an insight into the proud and honourable tradition of the force. I was hoping something similar could be done at Goulburn where we could draw upon the best traditions -
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The Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti: That would be very hard. We would have to skip what happened from 1965 to 1989.
The Hon. S. B. MUTCH: The Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti said we might have to skip some of the history, but I am sure we could draw upon the best traditions to show new recruits. As I said, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police exhibition was somewhat edited. The police were not keen to boast about the numbers of indigenous inhabitants with whom they came into conflict, to the detriment of the indigenous population. New South Wales had the same problems and the same unfortunate results - but that is history. The two gentlemen who accompanied me on this trip were impressive representatives of the New South Wales Police Service and I am pleased to know that officers of such calibre are employed by the service. We also looked at the metropolitan police in London. They have a tradition totally different from that of the Canadian police. Their course also emphasises the history and best traditions of their service, which is significantly different from the history and traditions of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. However, they are all beginning to adopt a community based policing strategy.
I was able to obtain a number of papers relating to the different ethnic communities. For instance, in Canada some interesting papers were drawn up by the Royal Canadian police about policing amongst the Sikh in the community. In London, which has a number of different ethnic groups, the police are making a great effort to try to attune themselves to the cultures of those communities, and that is part of what community based policing is all about. It is educating oneself in the community in which one lives, interacting with that community in a forthright and honest way and providing a service to the community. The Government is promoting the idea of service to the community and that is why it has introduced the policy that public servants who deal directly with the public should wear name tags, and Government employees must give their name when speaking to someone on the telephone. I do not propose to go through all of the impressive material on beat policing that I have with me today. I have put a lot of research into this speech and there are a number of matters I can raise on another occasion.
The Hon. Judith Walker: Do not throw it out.
The Hon. S. B. MUTCH: I am pleased that the honourable member has indicated that she will be supporting the motion; I take it that that means she will be voting for it as well. I do not know what the Labor Party caucus will decide but I know I have the support of the honourable member in that regard, although she may be constrained to vote otherwise if the party decides differently.
The Hon. Judith Walker: Not this lady; you have got the wrong lady.
The Hon. S. B. MUTCH: There should be more people like the honourable member on the other side of the Chamber. The Government has established beat policing and it has proved to be a success. I have some material which shows how successful it has been in a number of different suburbs. Only in the long term will we know how successful these sorts of programs will be. The Government has been very successful in engendering a positive attitude towards community policing and beat policing, although that is just one part of the whole culture which was introduced into the police force. In earlier days people such as John Avery had a lot of vision and that vision was supported by enough people to turn the police force into a service. That vision was also supported by catalysts such as Ted Pickering who was a visionary Minister, one who was prepared to take on entrenched attitudes and put the Government's case for change. It is good to see that in the area of community policing and beat policing the aims of the New South Wales Government and the Police Service have been one and the same.
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The Hon. JUDITH WALKER [3.32]: I do not have the faintest idea why the Government perceives that the New South Wales Labor Opposition is opposed to the concept of beat policing. The Hon. S. B. Mutch read to the House an editorial on beat policing dated, I think, 9th April, 1990. If honourable members look at the wording of the editorial more carefully they will see that the honourable member for Liverpool was not opposed to the concept of beat police at all; he said that the introduction of the concept of beat policing was cynical because it was a public relations exercise. The Hon. S. B. Mutch should get it right; he should learn to read what is in front of him and not make things up.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti: The Hon. S. B. Mutch said that.
The Hon. JUDITH WALKER: I do not care what the Hon. S. B. Mutch thinks.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti: Mr Anderson was opposed to it.
The Hon. JUDITH WALKER: He was not. The former Minister for Police and now the shadow minister, Mr Peter Anderson, is not opposed to the concept of beat policing, nor is the Labor Party - the Labor Party has never been opposed to it. The press release that the Government is relying on to present the view that the Labor Party is opposed to the concept of beat policing was not an expression of policy. Mr Anderson was saying that he was cynical about the proposal because of the number of resignations from the police force. Because the resignation rate was extraordinarily high, the concept of beat policing was difficult to accept at that point in time. That is what Mr Anderson was saying; to put any other interpretation on the article would be an absolute nonsense. The concept of community policing was not the brain child of the Liberal Party and the National Party.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti: He assured us that it was a public relations exercise that was doomed for failure.
The Hon. JUDITH WALKER: I have explained all of that. If the honourable member does not understand what I said I suggest that he read Hansard tomorrow.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti: The honourable member is trying to rewrite history. I will not have it.
The Hon. JUDITH WALKER: No, I never rewrite history. The concept of community policing is, in effect, a concept about which Commissioner Avery, who was appointed by the Labor Party, was very keen, as was the Labor Party and the then Minister, Mr Anderson. It was policy that community policing was the way the Police Service should go. In the run-up to the regionalisation of the police force, the decision was made by the then Minister, Mr Anderson, and the then commissioner, Mr Avery, that policing would be better served by eventually moving into community policing mode to break up some of the perceived cartels of power in the police force. The idea of regionalisation was born because it was perceived that it might break the power nexus, particularly inside the old Criminal Investigation Branch. It was thought that the splitting of the State into four sections and creating commanders responsible for those sections might give some added weight to trying to clean up what was perceived as ingrained corruption in the police force. It was not an easy decision to put into practice. Many people in the police force were unhappy about the concept of regionalisation. Many people not tainted by corruption were equally unhappy because they perceived the
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breaking up of the force to be a backward step. I understand the thinking behind that. It is like the breaking up of any centre of excellence - it never attains the essence and excellence it had with previous staff.
Because the CIB was a centrally controlled operation, it was much easier for police on the beat or general duties police to develop a modus operandi on a particular criminal in their area of responsibility. When the force was split into four regions there were difficulties both on the ground and operationally. When the police were transferred to the four areas a degree of expertise and skill was lost. I am sure that has now been overcome. It has been put to me that criminals operating in a particular area remove themselves from that area and start operating elsewhere. Police in that new area usually have to establish their modus operandi in respect of these types of people. To suggest that the Labor Party opposes the concept of community policing is false. I draw the attention of the House to the fact that long before the current Government came to office the effectiveness of community policing had been demonstrated by the introduction of Neighbourhood Watch centres. That was initially a joint venture by the New South Wales police force, Commercial Union Assurance Company of Australia Limited and NRMA Insurance Limited.
The Hon. R. T. M. Bull: It goes back to Sir Robert Peel.
The Hon. JUDITH WALKER: If there is one thing that could be said about members of the Chamber, it is that it is a shame that their sense of early history is so good but their sense of recent history is so poor. I do not give a damn about whether Sir Robert Peel started it. I do not care whose bright idea it was. What I am saying to the House is that the New South Wales police force, under the leadership of Peter Anderson, together with the management of the Commercial Union Assurance Company of Australia and NRMA Insurance Limited, funded Neighbourhood Watch. It is the real history of the matter about which I am trying to tell the House. If the Hon. R. T. M. Bull wants to live in the past with Sir Robert Peel, that is a matter for him. Obviously, I am not as old as he is. That scheme worked well initially. Eventually, it lost the sponsorship of the Commercial Union Assurance Company and there was a very worrying time when it seemed that Neighbourhood Watch might disappear altogether for lack of funding, but the NRMA took the view that that service was very important. I can understand its reasoning: after all, it was holding a lot of insurance policies on houses which were being burgled. It was not simply a public relations exercise on behalf of the NRMA; it was a very valuable exercise for it. Simply, with the system of Neighbourhood Watch working, there would be fewer break-ins and fewer insurance payouts. That in turn benefits the community because a lower rate of claims on insurance companies results in reduced premiums, bonuses for customers or perhaps the removal the excesses on certain policies. Commissioner Avery was an outstanding Commissioner of Police for this State. He was supported by the incoming Liberal Government in 1988. It supported the continuation of Mr Avery in the position of commissioner. To my knowledge he has never attracted any acrimony or bad wishes. Certainly nothing of that sort was said about him when he retired; he was an honest, upright, courageous and very good police commissioner.
The concept of beat policing still has some difficulties. I know that the Hon. S. B. Mutch went to a great deal of trouble to research his work, but there is still a problem in the New South Wales Police Service. It involves the way in which some operational police perceive the benefits of beat police as opposed to police in pursuit cars. There are still operational police who, given the type of criminal activity in their area, have the view that it is better for police to be inside pursuit cars. They believe that
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criminals driving cars need to be pursued by police in cars - not men on foot. They believe it is impossible for any policeman on foot to chase a car down the road and apprehend the occupants. That level of thought still exists. There are always shortages of staff at police stations. One major problem with determining how many staff are attached to a police station is that at any given time a number of police are missing from duty, whether that be because they are working in the courts that day on matters that have come on for trial, they are off ill or they are on leave. All those things result in the depletion of the number of police available to cover a particular area. Even today sergeants and inspectors hold the view that in the main general duties beat police would be better off operating from cars. Nevertheless, honourable members might recall that after the concept of beat policing had been introduced and developed and police were sent out on the beat the then Minister for Police and Emergency Services took the view that it was not right for a policeman and a policewoman to be seen strolling down the same side of a suburban street talking to each other; that was clearly not a total application to duty. The man stood in the Chamber and said this. I was absolutely horrified.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti: The honourable member is reinventing the wheel.
The Hon. JUDITH WALKER: I do not need to reinvent the wheel or anything else. I do not have to reinvent or rewrite history. There is nothing wrong with my mind or my memory. Minister Pickering said in this Chamber that he was concerned that men and women on street patrol and chatting to each other was not good public relations.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti: It is a hell of a lot better than in the dark past when they would sit behind a wheel driving up and down the road wearing sunglasses.
The Hon. JUDITH WALKER: I am not sure what cuckoo land the Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti lives in if he believes that New South Wales police sit in cars wearing sunglasses and driving around looking like they were out of work agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
The DEPUTY-PRESIDENT (The Hon. Dr Marlene Goldsmith): Order! I am finding it very difficult to hear the Hon. Judith Walker.
The Hon. JUDITH WALKER: If the honourable member is suggesting for a minute that New South Wales policemen and policewomen are driving around in police cars wearing dark glasses and looking like out of work former FBI agents, he has been reading either funny stories or taking funny stuff.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti: Ask any Aborigine in Redfern. The police used to cruise up and down with their dark glasses on.
The DEPUTY-PRESIDENT: Order! The Hon. Judith Walker has the call.
The Hon. JUDITH WALKER: The Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti should withdraw his last remark. It insults me, the Aboriginal people, the New South Wales Police Service and the good name of this Chamber to suggest that New South Wales police in dark glasses drove up and down Eveleigh Street in Redfern. It is an absolute arrant nonsense and I ask him to withdraw that statement. I was willing to trust in his good nature, but obviously he is not good natured today. The honourable member does not withdraw. However, if he perceives the police in that light there is not much I can
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do for his perceptions or thought processes. In any case I do not think anyone regarded what he said as being germane to the debate. Under current police procedures it is impossible to suggest that all general duties police should be roaming up and down side streets in neighbourhoods. Anyone with half a brain knows that the public's perception of safety is based on police presence, but there is not much good in having beat police if all the crime in the area is being carried out by people who use speeding cars. We cannot have beat police tearing up and down the street trying to stop alleged criminals getting away in speeding cars. A patrol commander must acknowledge the public's perception of increased safety with beat police but at times he may be better served by police driving cars. The view expressed by the Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti amazes me. Not many spare police cars sit outside police stations in this State, but on many occasions general duty officers have had to borrow detectives' cars and vice versa, if cars were available. Last year in the Picton-Camden area police were not able to respond to calls because they did not have a car. The honourable member should not tell me that I am rewriting the history of this State.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti: There are more police cars than the honourable member can poke a stick at. At Maroubra police station there are 98 cars - next they will be complaining that they have run out of petrol.
The Hon. JUDITH WALKER: Outside the Chamber the Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti is quite agreeable and makes a nice martini. Frankly, I had never had a martini until I came to this place.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti: The Hon. Judith Walker has the nicest olives.
The Hon. Virginia Chadwick: She has become quite sophisticated.
The Hon. JUDITH WALKER: Yes, I have become quite sophisticated in the upward learning process in the upper House. It has been an educative process. I had a particular substance that the Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti wanted, and he had a brand new substance that I had never tasted. So I got him the substance that he required. He produced the French vermouth and proceeded to make the cocktails. I could not reveal the source of the olives I obtained for those amazing cocktails and to this day it remains a secret. However, I wish the honourable member would stick to his discipline of doctoring, which he is very good at, and leave the police force alone. The police force is not assisted by the interjections of the Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti. I guarantee that if I went to Maroubra police station or any other tomorrow I would find a dearth of police cars. The police force does not have an entrenched position against beat policing but some officers believe that those resources could be used better operationally. Patrol commanders of that opinion should be entitled to use resources as they see fit because it is their responsibility. Citizens and shopowners experience enhanced safety and security through seeing more police walking the streets. However, beat police operate only from nine to five. Shops and other retail areas are prone to be attacked by criminals for many different reasons. No amount of beat policing could ever prevent that, and that makes me wonder how well thought out the program is.
Rookie police straight out of the Goulburn academy are sent to about 10 demonstration areas and are buddied up with other officers to carry out beat policing. In the inner Sydney area, which has no solid residential core, beat policing is a lonely activity. Police may get to know shopowners but find difficulty in becoming familiar with the area's transient residents. People move in and out of inner Sydney every day of the week. A major problem is the difference between the perception police have of
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themselves and the public's perception of them. Beat police serve the public in one way and the police force in another. The new police Minister and the Government should be concerned that all police are now forced to look over their shoulders through the intrusive and intensive efforts of the internal police section. It must be an invidious position for police officers to be in to have to write in their diaries every occurrence every day in case internal affairs will be on the doorstep the next morning inquiring about an accident or an incident or a pursuit in which the officer was involved. Police may be authorised to pursue an offender but know they may have to face an inquiry from the internal police.
The Police Service has been shaken up and, if corruption was entrenched, not much of it could remain. There will always be a few bad apples in any barrel, and that is true of politicians, police, lawyers and other walks of life. The Government should look carefully at what is happening to the morale of the police force through the intrusive activities of the internal police arm. A police officer who is sent out on a beat patrol, to an accident, to a domestic incident or patrolling in a car is at risk not from violence from the public but from the intrusiveness of the internal police. The men and women of the Police Service graduate from the Goulburn academy and form the thin blue line between the citizens and the criminals in our society. Internal policing need not be removed altogether but its stigma should be lifted so that serving police do not have that shadow hanging over them all their professional lives. Perhaps an outside independent body should be engaged to carry out those activities.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti: Perhaps the Inspector General will take up that role.
The Hon. JUDITH WALKER: I have no brief against the Inspector General. I read the information available prior to his appointment, but I ask what his role is in the Police Service. That may be an area that Chief Inspector Wilson may be able to take up. The New South Wales Opposition has never been opposed to and in fact is historically responsible for the successful introduction of many elements of community policing. The process has had its hiccups. Most have concerned funding. Some patrol commanders or officers in charge of police stations simply have not been trained to be administrators; they have been trained to be policemen. Some of the older police do not have administrative skills. They are better suited to policing. Time may have passed them by in a number of ways. Those officers need assistance. The problem will continue until a whole new breed of police who have been trained in the academy for that style of policing are in senior positions.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti: The alternative is what is happening with the army in Canberra. There is a bureaucrat sitting beside every senior army officer telling him whether he has got the money or not. At least the police still have the power to dictate their own terms.
The Hon. JUDITH WALKER: The difference is that the bureaucrat would not want the patrol commander's job. Relatively few senior positions are available within the service. The bulk of police are constables and sergeants. When senior positions become available the jockeying for them must be incredible. The pressures to compete for the jobs must be enormous. Patrol commanders and other officers must have a huge temptation to promote certain areas of policing within their area of responsibility and to implement economies to prove what good performers they are irrespective of the mayhem they might cause for serving police men and women in lower ranks. The problem is currently seething away in the force.
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The Hon. Elisabeth Kirkby: It happens in every walk of life. The police are not unique. It happens in universities, in schools.
The Hon. JUDITH WALKER: There might be a better argument that politicians are unique because there are fewer politicians than police. I am not suggesting that police are unique; I am just suggesting to the Government that there are problems within the force. Community policing is not the be-all and end-all; it is an important part of operational policing.
The Hon. Elisabeth Kirkby: They are there to serve the public. People feel safer when they see police on the street.
The Hon. JUDITH WALKER: I have already covered that ground. I have already acknowledged on behalf of the Opposition that the perception of security within the community is increased by police being on the beat. That is not an argument; it is not even a philosophical debate. It is a matter of practicality which is agreed on both sides of politics.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti: A good aspect of it is that it allows police to get a few more resources because of the community working with them. Is that not the benefit of it all?
The Hon. JUDITH WALKER: Definitely. A rigid policy could not be laid down putting beat policing into a little square box. Different areas of the State would be able to develop different modules, if you like, of the beat policing program. What might go well in Eastwood, a sausage sizzle, might go equally well in Wagga Wagga but it may not go so well in Redfern.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti: Or Hornsby.
The Hon. JUDITH WALKER: I do not know how hungry the people of Hornsby are. Beat policing or foot patrols - I do not much care what they are called - do not have any parameters as such. There can be a solid module for a program but the police and the communities in different areas will decide how the program is developed. To some degree it is a good tool for young rookies full of enthusiasm. I have not seen a rookie hit the street not running. In some of the new demonstration areas which have been set up there may be a few cynical old sergeants or constables who take the shine off the enthusiasm of the rookies. I suppose that is a risk with all young police men and women, or retrained police officers. There is not a lot that we as politicians can do about that. However, there is a lot that we can do by providing adequate resources. I am not for a moment suggesting that the Liberal Government has not made resources available over the past four years, but the resources should be directed to where they are most needed, and that is on the ground to support constables and sergeants in the execution of their duties. I am absolutely delighted that the question of volunteer policing has been set aside for a while.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti: It has just passed both Houses.
The Hon. JUDITH WALKER: I understand the position in regard to the passage of law. I am not one of the clones who support volunteer policing. I have larger concerns about the concept. I have listened to a great deal being said about it. I am concerned that a young rookie policeman could be accompanied by a volunteer to form a beat policing unit. A young rookie police officer - man or woman - has enormous
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responsibilities in facing the real world straight out of the academy. Volunteer policing now has the authority of Parliament to go ahead but I would hate to think that a rookie and a volunteer would be sent to patrol any area of Sydney, no matter how innocent the suburb might seem and I ask the Government to take my concern on board. Many older police officers who resigned in the late 1980s and early 1990s after many years of service to take advantage of the superannuation offer made to them are now returning to the Police Service. They are returning initially as ordinary officers and it will then be up to them how they work their way up through the ranks. That will put officers with realistic experience back into the Police Service. That experience has been sadly lacking for the past couple of years.
Recently the majority of members of the New South Wales Police Service were under the age of 30. In my view that was dangerous. It may be an advantage in terms of agility and speed but it does not do much for society because a young head cannot be placed on old shoulders or vice versa. Old sergeants and patrol commanders must have found themselves in difficulties when they realised that numbers in the Police Service were being strengthened continually by young fresh-faced 20 year olds and 21 year olds. Sergeant Willcox from the academy is an old-time campaigner. He is probably the most street-wise police officer I have ever met. He has turned out large numbers of successful young officers. He has been of enormous assistance to graduating policemen and policewomen. It must have been an horrendous operational nightmare for patrol commanders and inspectors to have to send out this extraordinary influx of young policemen and policewomen on difficult and dangerous jobs.
I do not believe the concept of beat police or community-based police will be overturned in this State. I cannot imagine any incoming government taking the view that police officers should not be on the ground where they are needed. I am a little sceptical about the comments made by the Hon. S. B. Mutch about intelligence gathering. That may occur in some areas, but intelligence gathering involves perceived difficulties. The patrol commander of a particular area may know where the Drug Enforcement Agency people or the undercover detectives are. He does not want the beat police to know where they are, and the undercover police officers do not want anyone to know where they are. I am not so sure that the concept advanced by the Hon. S. B. Mutch is so much an intelligence gathering exercise as an exercise in gaining knowledge of who the local naughties might be. Honourable members must remember that beat police change. If a patrol commander is lucky enough to have beat police, they might patrol the same area for about three months. For a range of reasons, the officers then change. Officers are promoted. I would not get too carried away with the idea of intelligence gathering being a by-product of the beat police program.
The Hon. L. D. W. Coleman: It all helps though.
The Hon. JUDITH WALKER: Of course, I am not criticising it. If any Government members can recall what I have said during the past 45 minutes, they will be aware that I have not criticised the concept of beat police. I have been talking about things that may happen in the everyday life of policemen, policewomen and patrol commanders. They encounter practical problems. The New South Wales Labor Opposition is not criticising or point scoring but is lending its support to the concept.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti: The left-wing rather likes this new form of police.
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The Hon. JUDITH WALKER: I do not care what the left-wing or the right-wing likes. I am not contributing to the debate on behalf of factions or individuals but on behalf of the New South Wales Labor Opposition, the Leader of the Opposition, the Hon. Michael Egan, and the Leader of the Opposition in New South Wales, Robert J. Carr. I am contributing to this debate on behalf of the whole of the Labor Party in New South Wales. The Opposition supports the concept put to the House by the Hon. S. B. Mutch and has been happy to contribute to the debate.
The PRESIDENT: Order! It being 4.15 p.m., pursuant to sessional orders proceedings are interrupted to permit the Minister to move the adjournment of the House should she so desire.
The Hon. Virginia Chadwick: No, I do not so desire.
CARLINGFORD DRAINAGE IMPROVEMENT (LAND EXCHANGE) BILL
Second Reading
The Hon. R. J. WEBSTER (Minister for Planning, and Minister for Housing) [4.16]: I move:
That this bill be now read a second time.
The object of the Carlingford Drainage Improvement (Land Exchange) Bill is to permit Hornsby Shire Council to alienate part of a public reserve in exchange for certain private land which is to be used for the construction of drainage works for the benefit of adjacent properties. The land exchange involves adding a small adjoining portion, 186.3 metres, of existing public reserve land to No. 19 Lyndelle Place, Carlingford, in return for an equal portion of land from 19 Lyndelle Place, which will be used for drainage purposes to allow stormwater drainage facilities to be built from Lyndelle Place to the existing open drain at the rear of No. 19 Lyndelle Place. During major storms a number of houses in Lyndelle Place, together with the roadway, become inundated with water and the problem is so serious that it figured prominently in the shire's 1992 annual report on page 11. The proposed works which Hornsby Shire Council has resolved to construct will alleviate these problems. To show that the owner of No. 19 Lyndelle Place agrees with this proposed course of action, an agreement has been signed between the council and the owner to allow the land transfer and construction to take place immediately after the bill becomes an Act.
Local residents in the vicinity of this property have been notified of the proposal and no objections have been received. In fact all residents can see the community benefit that will be achieved by allowing the land transfer and work to proceed. The bill was introduced into the lower House as a private member's bill by the member for Eastwood, Andrew Tink, who had previously received advice from the Minister for Local Government, the Hon. Gerry Peacocke. The advice was that the Solicitor General had serious doubts as to whether councils could use their resumption powers to effect the exchange and that in those circumstances the appropriate way of dealing with the matter would be by way of a private member's bill. As the flooding problem has previously been demonstrated to be an extremely serious one, it is most desirable that this bill be enacted as soon as possible. I commend the bill.
The Hon. J. W. SHAW [4.18]: This is a private member's bill. The Opposition has given it some consideration. Indeed, the member for Eastwood, Mr Tink, did me the courtesy of explaining the implications of the bill. I understand it passed through another place this morning, and the Opposition does not have any objection to
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it. In particular the Opposition is motivated to take that stance by some assurances given by the Council of the Shire of Hornsby in relation to the particular exchange of property. In particular, Hornsby Shire Council has said:
Local residents in the vicinity of this property have been notified of the proposal and no objections have been received. In fact all residents can see the community benefit that will be achieved by allowing the land transfer and the work to proceed.
In those circumstances the Opposition does not oppose the bill.
Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE [4.20]: I wish to place on record the support of the Call to Australia group for the Carlingford Drainage Improvement (Land Exchange) Bill. The object of the bill is to permit the Council of the Shire of Hornsby to alienate part of a public reserve in exchange for certain private land. The private land is to be used for the construction of drainage works for the benefit of the adjacent properties. I also have been briefed by Mr Andrew Tink in another place, and support the reasons that he has given for this legislation, which will be of tremendous benefit to all neighbouring residents who have been experiencing severe flooding. I have seen photographs which would appear to indicate that houses are in the middle of a lake. This legislation seems to be a very practical solution to a local problem. It also means that the Council of the Shire of Hornsby will have the same amount of land to use for drainage and that the residents will receive part of the public reserve in exchange for the private land. All parties will be treated fairly and are happy with the arrangement. The legislation has the full support of the Council of the Shire of Hornsby. We are pleased to support the bill.
The Hon. R. S. L. JONES [4.21]: I should like to commend Mr Andrew Tink on his initiative in having this private member's bill passed through the Parliament so quickly. The piece of land in question is only a tiny portion of land. I was concerned that it might be eroding a public reserve. It will, but it is only a very small piece and it is an equal swap for the other portion; and there has been no adverse public reaction to the proposed arrangement. The Australian Democrats are happy to support the bill, and commend the honourable member for his initiative.
The Hon. R. J. WEBSTER (Minister for Planning, and Minister for Housing) [4.22], in reply: I thank all honourable members for their contributions and I commend the bill to the House.
Motion agreed to.
Bill read a second time and passed through remaining stages.
INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS (SICK LEAVE) AMENDMENT BILL
Second Reading
Debate resumed from 24th September.
The Hon. J. W. SHAW [4.24]: The Opposition opposes this bill and will vote against the second reading. If the bill is read a second time we shall move some amendments in Committee designed to modify its more drastic and unjust consequences. The bill deals with sick leave, and directs itself specifically to the phenomenon of the paying out of sick leave which is found in some awards and industrial agreements which have been registered under the Industrial Relations Act 1991 or its statutory predecessor.
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The bill is a prime example of the Government's incompetent industrial relations policy formation. There is, of course, a more blatant, more obvious and more serious example of the Government's incompetence in industrial relations, and that is the Industrial Relations Act. In relation to the substantive statute, the major debate among participants in industrial relations is whether it is by accident that that Act is a debacle, or whether it is a deliberate attempt by the Government to subvert the resolution of industrial disputes. The more benign view is that it is simply an inadvertent disaster.
On a more modest scale, this sick leave legislation illustrates how not to deal with an industrial relations problem. May I crystallise the errors of approach that can be discerned in the bill? First, there was the complete absence of consultation when it was announced by the Minister for Industrial Relations at the time, Mr Fahey, in or about June 1991 that the Government would legislate in respect of this issue. I was astounded to see on the television on the night of, or perhaps the night after, Mr Fahey's announcement the representative of a major employer saying he had no prior knowledge of this change of policy. He was horrified about some of its implications. If I were the Minister, I would be appalled that any major representative of employers or employees would appear on television to say, "This is the first I have heard of the government initiative that has been announced publicly today". Second, when the measure was announced by Mr Fahey, the then Minister, it began to cause and is still causing serious alarm and concern on the part of employees who are potentially affected. Members of the Government must have picked up the concerns of the community, including employees of county councils, municipalities and shires, about their future and their retirement packages. Certainly, Labor Party backbench members have been deluged with expressions of concern, not only recently when the bill began to move through the Parliament, but ever since the announcement by Mr Fahey in June 1991. It is quite unfair and inappropriate that people should have that worry about the future, when an announcement is made in such a vague way, when it is surrounded by uncertainty and when it is preceded by absolutely no consultation.
Third, the policy has simply not been adequately thought through. I would have thought it manifestly inconsistent with the Government's policy - one might even say dogma - on industrial relations that there ought to be a decentralised enterprise bargaining process. As I understand it, the Government favours the employer and the work force coming to an arrangement without, or with a minimum of, third party interference. The philosophy, the idea behind the bill, is directly inconsistent with such an approach. Next, the way in which this policy has found its way into legislation and come before the House shows glacial progress. As I have said, the announcement was made in June 1991 and only now - in October 1992 - are honourable members debating the bill. The bill - if I can turn to its provisions - will prohibit measures in awards or agreements that allow or require an employee to cash in accumulated sick leave. It does so by negating the effects of awards or agreements, whether they have been arrived at by consensus or arbitrated by a tribunal. A partial and unsatisfactory attempt is made in proposed section 99A(5) to preserve the position of present employees. As I shall point out, that preservation is quite unsatisfactory. I suggest that the bill interferes with existing rights and contains a retrospective element with regard to existing employees.
Some arguments can be mounted against the idea of paying out sick leave, and I do not want my remarks to be construed as meaning that we would favour the extension of the paying out of sick leave into other areas of the work force that at present are not receiving that benefit. As the Minister said in his second reading speech, industrial tribunals, generally speaking, have declined to insert provisions of this kind by way of arbitration. Nevertheless, by way of consent in a number of areas of industry - not only
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local government but also meat processing and other industries - these provisions have been inserted as a result of bargaining between employers and trade unions. The Opposition will oppose this bill in point of principle, and I think we can do so without advocating any extension of the cashing in or paying out of sick leave. I would summarise the arguments against the bill in principle in this way. First, it is contrary to the idea of enterprise bargaining and the notion that people ought to be able to formulate their own terms and conditions of industrial relations, and those terms and conditions should not be revoked by some outside body. Mr Fahey, in his second reading speech on the Industrial Relations Bill said:
It is the Government's belief that the best industrial relations system is one which encourages employers and employees to work together to improve productivity and efficiency at the workplace level.
He said also that the aim of the bill was to reduce the role of third parties in regulating employment conditions where this is the wish of the employer and employees directly concerned. But this bill represents the State intruding upon the bargain arrived at in the workplace. It represents the Government prohibiting a particular outcome which has flowed from the bargaining processes. Therefore, in principle and in philosophy it is antithetical to the purposes and objects of the Government's policy in this legislation. Second, if there are to be changes in sick leave, and in particular changes to the paying out or cashing in of sick leave, that ought to be part of the award restructuring process. It ought to be done by negotiation. The Government has never raised this issue in a State wages case. It has never said to the Industrial Relations Commission that sick leave ought to be on the agenda for award modernisation and restructuring. I do not know why that has never been put on the agenda, but if the Government had thought about it, and had been properly advised, it would have proposed it and had the industrial commission supervise a reconsideration of sick leave by negotiation between the parties by a gradual and evolutionary process rather than by legislative intervention.
Third, the bill does not prohibit a contract or arrangement that sick leave might be paid out. If employers and unions want to agree to that, this bill would not stop it, provided it is not part of the award or registered agreement. Therefore, the effect of the bill will tend to be to drive underground arrangements like this. That is an unsatisfactory situation. If there are to be arrangements for the paying out of sick leave, it is better that they be put on the public record and become part of the formal award or registered agreement rather than some underground, unknowable, and private arrangement that is not subject to any scrutiny on the basis of the public interest. The final argument of principle that I submit in opposition to the bill is that very often the paying out of sick leave has been part of a package negotiated years ago, in the course of which the work force has given away certain other benefits that it might otherwise have claimed. In other words, in exchange for forgoing a wage increase or something of that kind, the work force has accepted a particular benefit, namely, the paying out of sick leave.
I have been provided with documents that illustrate that process whereby the paying out of sick leave is an integral part of a package negotiated between unions and employers. For example, in 1980 the Prospect County Council received a union demand for an increase in sick leave. The employers responded to that demand not by increasing the quantum of sick leave but by saying that they would agree that all untaken sick leave should be paid out. Of course, one can infer that there might be benefits for the employers in agreeing to pay out sick leave, for example, deterring the excessive taking of sick leave, but that illustrates it is part of a package arrived at by hard bargaining by the parties. I would suggest it is quite unfair to remove part of that package by
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legislative intervention at this stage. Again in 1980, the unions claimed of Illawarra County Council that the current sick leave quantum ought to be increased by 25 per cent. In response the employer formulated a particular proposal which stated:
In lieu of the period 1st January, 1968, to 31st December, 1972, when sick leave payment on retirement was restricted to 75 per cent, such part of the clause to be deleted and all leave payable on retirement be at 100 per cent.
That was a response by the employer to a trade union demand, and ultimately part of a package agreement between the parties. There are also examples of wage increases forgone in exchange for the payout of sick leave. It cannot be fair, I suggest, simply to remove that one element from packages that often were negotiated many years ago. I turn now to what I suggest is the most objectionable part of this bill: its interference with existing retirement rights of often long-standing employees, whether they be in local government, county councils or other industries that include this particular condition in their employment arrangements. Proposed section 99A (5) states:
This section does not affect the cashing in of accumulated sick leave under an existing provision on termination of employment.
It goes on to provide for the calculation of a way in which the maximum number of days leave may be cashed in. The effect of that provision is to say that where an employee with a certain bank or accumulation of sick leave entitlement becomes ill, sick leave must be taken from the accumulated bank as a matter of priority. In other words, assuming that an employee is entitled to 15 new sick leave days in 1993, and is ill for 15 days in 1993, the 15 days will come from his or her accumulation; they cannot be taken from the new days which accrue during 1993. An employee may, for example, have an accumulation of 30 days, and a reasonable and legitimate expectation that those days will be paid out upon retirement. If that employee becomes seriously ill in 1993, the whole of his or her entitlement can be depleted, indeed swept away. Honourable members will be aware that when people are nearing retirement they are concerned to calculate with some precision what that benefit will be. Many people have both a reasonable and a legitimate expectation that these accumulated, unused sick leave days will be part of that retirement package. It is quite unjust retrospectively to negate that entitlement by requiring that those days be used to accommodate current sick leave when there is obviously an ongoing year by year new entitlement which ought to be available to that effect. This bill would be most unjust to individuals if it were to have that effect. That particular aspect should cause this House to vote against the bill at its second reading stage. If, however, the House agrees to the bill being given a second reading, as I have foreshadowed, the Opposition will move a carefully crafted amendment to preserve existing rights and remove the particular injustice to which I have referred.
The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY [4.40]: The Industrial Relations (Sick Leave) Amendment Bill will prohibit awards of the Industrial Relations Commission, enterprise agreements, former industrial agreements, and related public sector agreements from authorising the cashing in of accumulated sick leave on the termination of employment or at any other time. The Australian Democrats broadly accept the basic principle on which this legislation is based; that is, that sick leave is a form of employer funded social insurance. As such, it should be taken only by workers who are genuinely sick and it should not be considered an indirect form of remuneration. Compensated sick leave was introduced as a social justice measure in Australia very early this century. Workers have a right to be absent from work with full pay for a number of days a year. The concept is related to the notion of a living wage which, in the 1907 Harvester judgment, included a small sum to cover normal absences for sickness. In the engineers case Mr Justice Higgins ruled in 1920:
Page 7004
If a weekly employee absents himself from duty without reasonable cause, a sum proportionate to his time of absence should be deducted from his pay.
Obviously sickness was a reasonable cause. From 1921 onwards awards usually provided that workers not attending for duty would lose payment for time lost unless evidence was given that there was a satisfactory reason for that absence within 24 hours of the absence. However, in the 1950s cashable sick leave was introduced into the salary packages for local government and county council employees. This was a trade-off against wage rises, to attract workers when unemployment was very low. The package was introduced when other benefits, such as superannuation and holiday loadings, were not offered. I believe that sick leave should be taken only in cases of genuine illness. It should not be exploited as an indirect form of income. It is my feeling that it penalises workers who have the misfortune to become ill and, therefore, it is to the advantage of healthy workers. The Government is creating an inequality - some workers will get more than others because they are lucky to have good health.
The concept of cashable sick leave has part of its roots in the idea that employees take sickies. We all know what sickies are - when workers telephone to say that they are sick when they are not. They usually happen when there is an important horse race, a big football match or a big cricket match. Sickies are reflected in other parts of the world. In Great Britain people never took sickies to go to sporting events; they said that they were going to funerals. Astute employers kept a list of their employees' grandparents and mothers and fathers. They discovered that some employees had eight grandfathers and 10 grandmothers - because it was always their grandmother's funeral. The origin of cashable sick leave was to provide an incentive for employees who wished to take sickies to persuade them that it was not a good idea, that it would be far better for them to accumulate those days off and have a cash reward for remaining at work. Even if that is taken into account, it seems to me that workers who are genuinely ill are penalised.
The Australian Democrats' main concern about this legislation is its retrospectivity. The Government has tried to argue that people either agree with the principle of the proper function of sick leave or they do not. However, I am convinced by the argument that if something has been previously agreed to as part of a wage package and the position changes it is inappropriate for an employer to renege on his or her side of the deal. A further complication arises in that many other employer benefits have been introduced into awards. Superannuation is an important benefit. Much to the chagrin and distress of many employers, since the beginning of this year compulsory superannuation has been a fact of life. Employers, whether they like it or not, are forced to abide by those provisions. We have to accept that conditions have changed. It appears to me - although I do not believe that the Labor Party or the Labor Council is convinced about this - that the bill includes a compromise. Employees with existing arrangements will be allowed to keep the amount accumulated up to the date of the commencement of the legislation. However, future sick leave will be deducted from accumulated sick leave days. The Government is arguing that this provision is not retrospective because, when sick leave is taken from an accumulated pool, that is the leave that became available at the earliest date. The Government also points to clause 99A(6) which states:
An existing provision may be duly repealed or varied but not so as to increase the number of days or other periods of accumulated sick leave that may be cashed in.
The Government argues that this clause will operate where employees wish to cash in their accumulated sick leave before retirement. It also provides scope for individual negotiations. If this is so - I would like this to be confirmed by the Government - the employee will be able to preserve his or her accumulated cashable sick leave benefit as
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at the date of the commencement of the legislation. I believe that that is the optimal outcome: the rights of employees will not be affected retrospectively, and it is agreed that it will not be possible to accumulate any further cashable sick leave. When members of the Labor Council spoke to me the other day they admitted that accumulated sick leave was something that had been abandoned in many awards in recent years. There is only a certain category of employees who are able to accumulate sick leave and get a cash benefit in lieu. It appeared that we agreed on the principle that sick leave should be taken as sick leave and accumulated in case the worker had a serious illness. It should not be accumulated just to accumulate income either on redundancy or retirement. I am still concerned - this is the basis of the amendment which will be moved by the Hon. J. W. Shaw during the Committee stage - that the opportunity to be paid accumulated sick leave or to accumulate it until retirement will be available under the provisions of the legislation on a case by case basis only.
It seems that this bill will create some disadvantageous situations because some employers will be amenable to this concept and will pay up very happily and others will not. This will not be fair because the original agreement will not have to be honoured. It will place the worker at the mercy of the employer who is not willing to abide by the original agreement. However, having said that, a point in favour of this clause is that it acknowledges the need for some scope for employers who may not be able immediately to pay out the total accumulated sick leave. The ability to do this is necessary since it is likely that all workers would want this outcome - in these days we could not possibly blame them - and an employer might be faced with the problem of having to attempt to pay out all workers immediately. In the current economic climate that might be impossible.
As I understand the amendment to be moved by the Hon. J. W. Shaw, it will preserve the amount of cashable sick leave accumulated as of the date of the commencement of the legislation. The advantage of this amendment is that the cash entitlement up to the date of the commencement of the legislation will be preserved for all workers who have been given it in the first place. Any sick leave that workers may need to take in the future will be taken first from the days that they are entitled to after the start of the legislation, that is, the non-cashable accumulation. I hope I have stated that correctly; I am sure that if I have not the Hon. J. W. Shaw will tell me that I have not got it right. I ask the Attorney General, and Minister for Industrial Relations to consider that it is a more just compromise than that which has been proposed by the Government. There is no doubt that employers will have to pay out more under the Opposition's scheme, but we might remember that it is possibly bad management that is responsible for the inability of employers to fund the entitlement originally agreed to. They would have known that their employees were under an award that gave them accumulated cashable sick leave and should have been making provision for that and not hoping they would have the money in the kitty when the time came.
The Australian Democrats believe that there are basically three courses of action to consider. The first would be to allow the present entitlements to continue, which is obviously not the Government's position. I can understand why: it would lead to a large blowout in costs to local government and to other employers who have agreed to it in the past. It entrenches the concept of cashable sick leave. Even the Labor Council of New South Wales admits that the concept of cashable sick leave is likely to vanish, and that has been the case in respect of many workers. The second course would be to cap entitlements from the date of commencement of the amended law. This will be available to employees on renegotiation on a case by case basis under clause 99A(6). Otherwise they will have to take what I call option three. Option three will be available more
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universally under the Opposition's amendment. People who have been sick before will be disadvantaged, but this was to be expected. I do not see how that can be avoided. But the rights of employees will not be affected retrospectively. Employees will also have other forms of employment benefits - and superannuation is one of those - to compensate.
My option three is that entitlements be capped from the date of the commencement of the amending law but reduced by any sick leave taken from then onwards. Under option three people who fall sick from now on will be disadvantaged, but this is a carry-over from the cashable sick leave scheme. The amount that employers would have to pay out would be reduced. Another option is that new enterprise bargains could be struck not with cashable sick leave, because that is directly prohibited so far as the legislation is concerned, but with other forms of employment benefits. I do not believe it would be beyond the wit of unions when negotiating enterprise agreements to work out with employers a scheme under which they would achieve for the employees other forms of benefits without resorting to cashable sick leave, without the attendant abuse of the purpose of sick leave as I see it, and without the penalisation of the genuinely sick. The other question, which forms the basis of the argument that was put forward to me by the Labor Council, is whether it is appropriate for the Government to forbid provisions of this kind in enterprise agreements. In fact, the whole tenor of the case put to me by the Labor Council was whether it is proper, if enterprise agreements are to be entered into by employers and employees without the intervention of a third party, to have legislation that specifically lays down the conditions under which enterprise agreements might be agreed to. There is validity in that argument, but that is not the basis of the legislation before the House. However, to get the concerns of the Labor Council of New South Wales on the record, I shall quote briefly from a document it faxed to me today. It reads:
The Bill proposes that future sick leave be taken from the earliest day standing to the credit of an employee, i.e. from the cashable component, which will reduce the entitlement of the employee on retirement.
The council's view is as follows:
To remove the retrospective impact, the Bill should provide for future sick leave to be taken from sick leave entitlements that accrue after the legislation comes into effect. The sick leave component accrued prior to the introduction of the legislation, the cashable component, should be preserved and only be reduced if entitlements accrued after the legislation is introduced are insufficient to cover a period of leave due to sickness.
The Labor Council continues:
The second concern is the impact the Bill will have, not only on the employees who have an existing entitlement under the provisions of awards or agreements but also the bereaved. Some awards and/or agreements provide for the payment of any untaken sick leave on the death of the employee, to the employee's dependants.
The concern of the Labor Council is that the bill in its current form will prohibit this occurring in the future. It believes that it will place an additional strain on an employee's dependants at a time of extreme anxiety. I accept the reasoning of that argument, but in a time of very high unemployment with so many people receiving social security benefits it again puts one class of workers in a position of advantage compared with another class of workers who may at the time of the death of the bread-winner of the family not be able to have such financial support. The bread-winner may die when he or she is receiving social security benefits, but in that circumstance the Department of Social
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Security certainly does not make a cash payout. The third concern brought to my attention by the Labor Council involves provisions that relate to the payment of untaken sick leave when an employee is made redundant. A number of awards and agreements provide for the payment of untaken sick leave on redundancy so that employees who commence employment with a new employer have some provision for sick leave if they become ill before having accrued sick leave with the new employer. The majority of awards provide an employee with sick leave of eight to 10 days per annum. In the first year awards generally provide for an employee to accrue one day per month in the first 10 months although other awards provide no entitlement to sick leave for the first three months of employment. As can be seen from the general award provisions, payment of untaken sick leave on redundancy is not unreasonable in view of the award provisions that apply to the bulk of employees covered by State awards.
The document is lengthy but I would like to put on record the amendments which the Labor Council is requesting. The council believes that the bill should be amended as follows: first, to allow for an employer and his or her employees to provide in an enterprise agreement for the payment of untaken sick leave, if both parties believe this is of mutual benefit; second, to exclude redundancy provisions from the effects of the bill; to preserve existing entitlements, that is those accrued prior to the proposed legislation coming into effect; and to avoid existing sick leave entitlements being used in priority to sick leave accrued after the proposed legislation comes into effect. This last requested amendment is the subject of the amendment to be moved by the Hon. J. W. Shaw, which the Australian Democrats will be supporting. If an employee has accrued 30 or 40 days of sick leave, the proposed legislation will allow that to be cashed in. However, the Government believes it is necessary for those employees to whittle into their accrued sick leave bank should they become sick after the enactment of the legislation.
I cannot see any reason why the Government should not agree that after the legislation comes into effect employees should be allowed to retain what they have already accrued and may use the sick leave they earn after enactment. For the first two or three years the amount of that sick leave may be quite small. Employees with serious illness or requiring operations should be able to use the small amount of accrued sick leave before calling on the accumulation in their sick leave bank. I ask the Attorney General, and Minister for Industrial Relations to consider this amendment with care. I hope the amendment will be agreeable to the Government, the Opposition and the crossbenchers. However, I would like to put on record other information I have received, if only to counter a view put to me by members of the Labor Council. They attempted to explain that recently many employees had negotiated awards for accumulated sick leave because they had forgone wage rises.
The Hon. J. R. Johnson: Or other benefits.
The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: Or other benefits, and they had decided that they would rather accumulate sick leave and forgo other benefits. Under the local government engineers award, which is now part of the local government senior officers award, payments for sick leave were first introduced from June 1974. Wage rates effective immediately prior to June 1974 and operative from 29th May, 1993, ranged from a minimum of $9,588 to a maximum of $16,002. The wage rates in effect as at l988 - a freeze occurred under the accord - were a minimum of $35,933 and a maximum of $65,408. Over that period of almost 20 years the movement in the minimum rate was about 275 per cent and movement in the maximum rate was 308 per cent. Though other benefits may have been forgone by agreement, a substantial movement in wage rates
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occurred during that period. That movement is reflected also in the Municipal Employees (Newcastle Wages Division) Award. In that award movements over that period were 400 per cent in the minimum rate and 345 per cent in the maximum rate. Also, the change in the consumer price index from 1973 to May 1989 for New South Wales public authorities was 298 per cent but the change over all industries was 292 per cent. Public authorities, especially those working with local or county councils, will be mainly affected by the proposed legislation.
It cannot be suggested, on the data available to me, that local government employees generally have suffered any long-term reduction in wages as a result of the introduction of payment for untaken sick leave. Surely under the wage fixation principles established during the past decade any anomaly, inequity or undervaluation by local government could have been rectified after substantiation in negotiations before the Industrial Relations Commission. Presumably during that 20 year period union officials and employees had opportunities to bring anomalies, inequities or undervaluation before the commission. If they were so dissatisfied why did they not take that course? I believe that the amendment to be moved for the Opposition by the shadow minister for industrial relations is fair and reasonable, and I trust that the Government and all parties will accept it, consent to it and not enter into contention.
Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE [5.10]: The object of the Industrial Relations (Sick Leave) Amendment Bill is:
. . . to amend the Industrial Relations Act 1991 to prohibit awards of the Industrial Relations Commission, enterprise agreements, former industrial agreements and related public sector agreements from authorising the cashing-in of accumulated sick leave on the termination of employment or at any other time. Under some existing awards and agreements covering certain local government and other areas of employment, provision is made for an employee to be paid on termination or periodically the salary equivalent of sick leave accumulated but untaken (or some specified portion of that accumulated leave).
The bill preserves the entitlements of existing employees under the provisions of such awards and agreements. In future, existing employees will not be entitled under those provisions to accumulate additional sick leave for cashing-in purposes. The existing accumulated sick leave available for cashing-in purposes on termination is to be reduced by the number of days that the existing employee is absent in future on sick leave. Furthermore, existing employees will not be entitled in future to cash-in accumulated sick leave before termination of employment.
The liability of various councils for accumulated sick leave payouts to their employees has become a major financial problem. The Attorney General, and Minister for Industrial Relations issued a press statement on 24th September which states:
. . . Campbelltown City Council last year estimated that its sick leave bill had reached $1.1 million. Shortland Electricity estimated theirs at $19.3 million, Auburn Council is faced with a $1.27 million bill while Wollongong Council, from last reports, has a $10.1 million bill which is increasing at $1 million a year.
That huge burden would have to be passed on to the ratepayers and residents of council areas or electricity consumers. The press statement makes that point. The Minister stated:
Payouts like these place huge burdens on councils at a time when most are scratching to maintain services to the public, including road construction and maintenance, water drainage and libraries.
He also stated:
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The ability to cash-in sick leave does not exist in State Government departments and applies to few employees in statutory authorities . . . Despite this the existing ability to cash in sick leave still affects the majority of NSW residents - it affects anyone who pays rates or electricity bills.
Back when sick leave accumulation provisions were introduced it may have seemed a simple arrangement. I have had discussions with a number of council employees who are due to receive accumulated sick leave payments. They have told me - and I believe them - that the ability to accumulate sick leave was a factor in their accepting employment with the council. They recognised the potential value of the payments and saw them as a form of benefit in the same category as the provision of a council car, a council house, reduced rental or whatever. It was an inducement to accept council employment. It was seen as a future benefit such as a superannuation payout to be used in their retirement or to provide a deposit on a home of their own. Rightly or wrongly, that has been their attitude. When such benefits were introduced no one worked out what the total payments would be. As I said, the Shortland Electricity liability is $19.3 million. Some councils influenced by local trade union leaders or Labor Party members tended to provide benefits to council employees. I am not necessarily being critical of this. Wollongong council is a good example. Its liability is $10.1 million, and increasing by $1 million a year. People who approved the provisions with good intentions in the beginning did not see what the total liability could be.
When the State Government saw that its unfunded superannuation liability was running into many millions of dollars and endangering the financial viability of the State Government it decided it was necessary to cut off the old scheme and introduce a new superannuation system. A similar principle is involved in relation to accumulated sick leave payments. It would be understandable to apply the new arrangements for accumulated sick leave to future employees and to compensate them with a wage rise such as occurred with enterprise agreements. Employees have agreed to work different hours and at the weekend in exchange for a wage increase. The controversial question is what should happen in relation to employees who in good faith entered into employment with councils in the belief that they had a concrete contract that could not be broken retrospectively, as appears to be happening with this legislation. The proposed changes have caused a great deal of agitation among council employees who will be affected.
Under this legislation sick leave in future will be taken from accumulated leave. It seems that it would be fairer for the annual sick leave allocation to be accumulated so that an employee who, say, had a hip replacement requiring more than three weeks' leave would not have to use other leave. The employee who has been faithful and has not taken sickies, one of the scourges of Australian society, will be almost punished because of not having taken sick leave. It may not have been the motive of such employees but they would have known that not taking sick leave was almost like putting money in the bank, because it would accumulate. People who suffered only minor illnesses, migraine headaches and other sickness which would have caused other employees to take time off, almost at the drop of a hat, have maintained an attendance record of almost 100 per cent.
Such people may have been engineers or they may have held other key positions. If they were absent, the ability of the council to complete particular projects could have been affected. Their presence would save the council money. In the long run ratepayers' money would have been saved as well because staff attendance would have been higher and work performance would have been more productive. In other words, they were not absent, so the council projects could continue and foremen could supervise workers even if the level of operations was lower. Perhaps it would not be so serious if a council
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roads employee was absent on sick leave; he may not have influenced the project. However, the project certainly would have been affected when people with high levels of responsibility took the full benefit of their sick leave. Accumulated sick leave has had a hidden benefit for the council and the ratepayer as well.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti: How could there be?
Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: I have just explained that.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti: The cost is so high.
Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: All the supervisory employees would be working so that council projects would be developing and proceeding. Therefore, a great deal of expenditure would be saved if the project was not delayed.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti: Where is the benefit to the grateful ratepayers?
Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: The project is completed more speedily and therefore the costs are less. That would seem to be a fairly obvious result. One only has to read the reports of the cost of sickies to industry to realise that it runs into billions of dollars. There is a cost to the community when people take sickies or believe, even when they are not seriously ill, that as they will lose their sick leave they may as well take it. I have presented to the House in summary form the reasons for the Government's concern and why it has introduced the legislation. Obviously, as spelt out by the Hon. J. W. Shaw, the legislation has caused great concern among the various trade unions associated with different categories of employees. I and other members have received a detailed statement dated 15th October from the Labor Council of New South Wales which summarises the concerns of the trade union movement in relation to the proposed legislation. Part of the statement reads:
The Industrial Relations (Sick Leave) Amendment Bill 1992 is in direct conflict with the Government's policy of Enterprise Bargaining and the enterprise agreements provisions of the Industrial Relations Act, 1991.
The Government argued on numerous occasions that centralised regulation of employment conditions restricts flexibility at the enterprise level and introduced the Industrial Relations Act, 1991, with amended enterprise agreement provisions to offer employers and employees the opportunity to reach agreement on conditions of employment outside those prescribed by the respective awards and without the involvement of a third party.
That means that employers and employees can make arrangements about any aspect of pay or benefits, which could obviously include accumulated sick leave. The Labor Council document continues:
The payment of untaken sick leave on termination or retirement was discussed and the first agreements reached in the mid 1960's, when employers and employees freely entered into these agreements. These are early examples of ‘enterprise bargains' which were negotiated and put in place in the ‘spirit' of the current provisions for enterprise agreements contained in the Industrial Relations Act, 1991.
It was during negotiations for increased wages and conditions that employers suggested, in lieu of sick leave accrued during the period of employment be paid out on termination or retirement. This was seen as a means of avoiding an immediate pay increase and, as outlined in the Sick Leave Issues Paper, prepared by the Department of Industrial Relations, Employment, Training
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and Further Education, was "used as a mechanism to recruit and retain staff". Thus, the proposal for the payment of untaken sick leave was accepted by the Unions in lieu of an increase in wages.
The document then spells out in detail the Labor Council's concerns. The first concern relates to the retrospective impact the bill will have in its current form. The document reads:
While the Government has been adamant that the affects of the Bill would not be retrospective, on closer examination, this is clearly not the case.
A number of people who have written to me and visited me about this legislation have emphasised a letter that was sent by the present Premier, the Hon. John Fahey, on 10th July, 1991, which is not way back in the dim past. I am certain that at that stage he never expected to be Premier and to have to provide leadership on a wider range of issues than those on which he was engaged at that time. In that letter he replied to concerns expressed by Mr B. J. Grimshaw, the Secretary of the New South Wales Branch of the Municipal Officers Association of Australia. Mr Grimshaw had written to Mr Fahey concerning untaken sick leave and had sought certain assurances. John Fahey gave those assurances. He said:
I refer to your letter of 12 June 1991 concerning untaken sick leave.
Whilst I remain of the view that various issues surrounding sick leave, particularly the cashing-in of accrued entitlements on termination of service, are matters which need review, I have publicly indicated that a final decision will not be made until comments from interested organisations and persons have been considered.
My Department of Industrial Relations, Employment, Training and Further Education is in the process of releasing an Issues Paper which will invite comment for consideration and I have asked that a copy of the paper be forwarded to you.
This is the punch line in the letter:
With regard to the cashing-in of untaken sick leave, I have also publicly stated if there is to be any legislative change, it will not retrospectively affect entitlements accrued up to the date of such legislation.
I trust this advice fully clarifies the situation for you.
JOHN FAHEY
Minister for Industrial Relations
Minister for Further Education, Training and Employment
When Mr Grimshaw and others received that letter, they took it as not merely containing advice clarifying the situation but as some kind of assurance from the then Minister for Industrial Relations that nothing would be done that would retrospectively affect entitlements due up to the date of any legislation. It seems from a reading of the legislation that the bill does that. As I said earlier, when future sick leave will be taken from the accumulated sick leave, that is obviously retrospective. That appears to break what could fairly be described as a commitment or a promise made by John Fahey. That involves a serious question of the Government maintaining its credibility and, more seriously, the Premier maintaining his credibility with the employees of this State. The maintaining of credibility is an important matter. A number of matters have been raised in correspondence with me and they have been summarised in the Labor Council's
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submission. The strongest point related to what I regard as a promise by the former Minister for Industrial Relations, Mr Fahey, on the occasion referred to. In its submission the Labor Council said:
The Bill proposes that future sick leave be taken from the earliest day standing to the credit of an employee, i.e. from the cashable component, which will reduce the entitlement of the employee on retirement.
To remove the retrospective impact, the Bill should provide for future sick leave to be taken from sick leave entitlements that accrue after the legislation comes into effect. The sick leave component accrued prior to the introduction of the legislation, the cashable component, should be preserved and only be reduced if entitlements accrued after the legislation is introduced are insufficient to cover a period of leave due to sickness.
I consider that to be a very strong point. It is the point that has been taken up in the amendments foreshadowed by the Opposition, which would in my opinion seem to rectify the problem. Therefore, I have great sympathy for the proposed amendment. The Labor Council also stated:
The second concern is the impact the Bill will have, not only on the employees who have an existing entitlement under the provisions of awards or agreements, but also the bereaved. Some awards and/or agreements provide for the payment of any untaken sick leave on the death of the employee, to the employee's dependants.
The Bill, in its current form, will prohibit this occurring in the future which will place an additional strain on an employee's dependants at a time of extreme anxiety.
That may not be the Government's intention but it -
The Hon. J. R. Johnson: Of course it is the Government's intention.
Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: I always try to think highly of both sides of Parliament. A literal reading of the legislation would indicate the employee has to cash in the accumulated sick leave. If the employee died, it could be argued that because he was dead he could not claim the accumulated sick leave and it would not be paid out; that the widow was not the employee and therefore had no legal entitlement to the accrued sick leave. On my reading of it, the Opposition's proposed second amendment would take care of that problem. As I said, I believe it is probably an unintended operation of the legislation. I hope the Government, when considering the Opposition amendment, will see merit in it. As this has become a controversial matter, I hope there can be some meeting of the minds in respect of this issue so that the legislation is passed in principle but with amendments that provide a degree of justice. The Labor Council's third concern was:
The third concern involves provisions that relate to the payment of untaken sick leave when an employee is made redundant. A number of awards and agreements provide for the payment of untaken sick leave on redundancy so that if an employee commences employment with a new employer they have some provision for sick leave if they become ill before having accrued sick leave with the new employer.
There are obviously administrative problems when a person changes employment. It has happened in the past with regard to superannuation and a number of other matters. The Government should ensure that there is no disadvantage to the employee who changes his employment. The Labor Council's statement continued:
Page 7013
The majority of awards provide an employee with sick leave of 8-10 days per annum. In the first year awards generally provide for an employee to accrue 1 day per month in the first 10 months although there are others that provide no entitlement to sick leave for the first three months of employment.
As can be seen from the general award provisions, payment of untaken sick leave on redundancy is not unreasonable when consideration is given to the award provisions that apply to the bulk of employees covered by state awards.
The fourth concern relates to the legislation prohibiting enterprise agreements from providing for the payment of untaken sick leave on termination or retirement.
The Premier, then Minister for Industrial Relations, when introducing the Industrial Relations Bill, 1991, stated in his second reading speech, "At the heart of this reform is the Government's belief that the best industrial relations system is one which encourages employers and employees to work together to improve productivity and efficiency at the workplace level".
He went on to say, "The Government considers that the current requirements for approval of enterprise agreements are unnecessarily onerous, and are not fully consistent with the objective of the legislation, which is to reduce the role of third parties in regulating employment conditions, where this is the wish of the employer and employees directly concerned".
This current proposal to legislate in order to prohibit enterprise agreements for providing for the payment of untaken sick leave on termination or retirement is clearly inconsistent with the intent of the legislation dealing with enterprise agreements in the Industrial Relations Act 1991 judging from the comments above, of the Premier when he was Minister for Industrial Relations.
The Call to Australia group agreed in principle with that Act because it appeared to provide flexibility, but it does appear to be inconsistent. The Hon. J. W. Shaw criticised the Government for saying it does not want the unions to interfere but wants to leave it to the employer and employee, when the Government itself wishes to interfere. The Labor Council's fifth concern relates to the question of the working of enterprise agreements in the true spirit of the legislation. The Labor Council concluded:
This debate has been charged with emotion because the issue highlighted is the payment of untaken sick leave, however, the real issue is the Government legislating on conditions of employment and whether this is appropriate or indeed consistent with the provisions of the Industrial Relations Act 1991.
The Labor Council has urged Call to Australia to oppose the bill in toto, but the group sees a need for the legislation if it can be amended to remove retrospectivity and the matter relating to the dependants of a deceased employee. In respect of its second fall-back position the Labor Council submission is as follows:
If legislation is to introduced to deal with this particular issue then the trade union movement believes the legislation should be amended to address its concerns with the Bill.
In particular, the Bill should be amended to:
(i) allow for an employer and his/her employees to provide in an enterprise agreement for the payment of untaken sick leave, if both parties believe this is of mutual benefit; and
(ii) exclude redundancy provisions from the effects of the Bill; and
(iii) preserve existing entitlements (those accrued prior to the Bill coming into effect); and
(iv) avoid existing sick leave entitlements being used in priority to sick leave accrued after the bill comes into effect.
Some of those concerns have been taken up by the Opposition's two amendments. I have also received a number of letters from the employees of various councils and other bodies that will be affected if the legislation is adopted. In particular, I have received a very
Page 7014
detailed submission from Southern Tablelands County Council employees signed by Ross Monk and supported by a petition signed by a large number, if not all, of the employees of the Southern Tablelands County Council, which, it would appear from the address given - Goulburn - is probably within the Premier's electorate. Perhaps they feel a little more strongly about this issue than others feel. In their letter of 6th October they state:
We the undersigned are employees of the Southern Tablelands County Council.
We wish to address the issue of "SICK LEAVE REVIEW" that we believe the Minister for Industrial Relations is to bring before Parliament in the form of a draft bill.
Obviously they are a little out of touch. This is not a draft bill. The letter continued:
Firstly, we wish to draw your attention to your publicly stated position and written position when you were Minister for Industrial Relations.
Obviously, they are referring to Mr Fahey - I have never been the Minister for Industrial Relations. They then quote what Mr Fahey wrote to Mr B. J. Grimshaw in the following terms:
With regard to the cashing-in of untaken sick leave, I have also publicly stated that if there is to be any legislative change, it will not retrospectively affect entitlements accrued up till the date of such legislation.
They then quote part of a letter to Mr Warrington, Director of Industrial Relations Division of the Local Government Association of New South Wales, from Jonathon Hamberger, Assistant Director, Industrial Relations Policy, which states:
However, sick leave entitlements will remain and the unclaimed sick leave will continue to accumulate so that long standing employees can benefit from their past health record. Existing entitlements will also be preserved, but further accumulation for the purpose of "cashing-out" on retirement will be prohibited.
That is a fair statement and it supports what Mr Fahey said earlier, but it is not fulfilled in the proposed legislation. I assume that Jonathan Hamberger wrote his letter to the Local Government Association of New South Wales with the full authority of the then Minister, Mr Fahey. The employees of Southern Tablelands County Council went on to say:
We now believe that Cabinet has agreed that after the commencement of the legislation, subsequent time off for genuine sickness will be taken from the earliest day standing to the credit of the sick worker.
This is RETROSPECTIVE and totally UNJUST, that the workers who have not abused the system but have been RESPONSIBLE, DILIGENT and HONEST, in carrying out their duty, are now to be penalised while those who have taken all their leave have received paid benefits and will continue to do so. Where is your sense of integrity and fair play? If you must take away an award condition the least you could do is allow the present system to remain, whereby leave due in the present year is used first then the existing year's leave etc. This would be in line with Jonathan Hamberger's statement that "EXISTING ENTITLEMENTS WILL ALSO BE PRESERVED" not eroded unless the employee's health deteriorates and needed the use portion of the preserved accumulation.
These employees appear to be making a genuine concession - if an employee's health is of such a serious and long-term nature then the preserved accumulated sick leave would have to be used. They continued:
We would further state that if a full and honest study was done into the current scheme you would find the financial benefits to industry and productivity outweigh the costly losses that arise
Page 7015
out of employees failing to turn up to work. We believe your Government is taking away what today would be accepted under your publicised enterprise bargaining agreement.
We would URGE you to look again at your statements and to be fair to Employees who have done the right thing.
Attached to that letter is a list of names of about 150 employees. I believe that the Government must give further consideration to this matter and, I hope, give consideration to the proposed amendments. I contemplated trying to draft amendments myself but as this is such a specialised area I decided to follow the lead of the Opposition. It is a complicated piece of legislation, as is this whole question of cashing in accumulated sick leave. I sought and received a copy of the Opposition's proposed amendments and I asked the Government to examine them. I received an advance reply which perhaps I should keep until the matter is dealt with in Committee. I understand from the Minister's remarks that he has not had a full opportunity to be briefed on some of these matters and perhaps it would be better if the debate were adjourned to allow consideration of the Opposition's amendments. The Call to Australia group supports the bill in principle but it is sympathetic to the amendments proposed by the Opposition.
The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD (Attorney General, and Minister for Industrial Relations) [5.46], in reply: I thank honourable members for their support of the legislation and the principles behind it. Clearly the Australian Democrats and the Call to Australia group support the Government's approach that cashing in of sick leave is a concept that should not be allowed to continue. I note that though the Hon. J. W. Shaw has not said in so many words that he adopts that principle, he was quoted in the Sydney Morning Herald of 8th October in the following terms:
The Opposition spokesman on industrial relations, Mr Jeff Shaw, QC, said he did not like the principle of paying employees for untaken sick leave.
However, he was opposed to the legislation's retrospectivity, which would deny payouts already guaranteed under previously settled industrial agreements.
It is clear that the honourable member supports the principle embodied in the legislation, that the policy of paying employees for untaken sick leave should not continue.
The Hon. J. W. Shaw: Not the principle of legislative prohibition.
The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: I note that the honourable member does not agree with the principle of legislative prohibition, but that is not the response other members of this House have made to the Government's approach to issues regarded as unacceptable practices. It is acknowledged that if this is not an acceptable practice, the use of the legislative approach is not an appropriate approach to take. The honourable member suggested that there was a lack of consultation on this proposal. However, the Government released a paper on this matter on 8th July, 1991, and 40 submissions were received, including proposals from the Labor Council, from the Metal Trades Industry Association and from the Chamber of Manufactures. The Labor Council in a letter dated 23rd August, 1991, under the heading "Proposed Legislative Alternatives" at page 5 said:
The review suggests on Page 8 the introduction of legislation in one of the three following forms:
1. Prohibition of further "cashing in" of accumulated sick leave from the date of the legislation.
2. Prohibition of the "cashing in" of accumulated sick leave for new employees.
Page 7016
3. Prohibition of the "cashing in" of sick leave accumulated after the date of the legislation and allow any sick leave accumulated prior to the date of the legislation be preserved, for the use in either long term illness or "cashed in" on termination or retirement.
The Labor Council went on to say on page 6:
If the Government sees legislation as the answer to what it believes is a problem with sick leave and intends to legislate in a manner similar to one of the three proposals outlined on Page 8, the third option allowing for sick leave that has been accumulated prior to the date of the legislation to be preserved and used for illness or paid out on termination or retirement is the most equitable of the three. The preserved sick leave should be paid out at the rate of pay at the point of termination or retirement. It would be more appropriate that the Government leave this matter to the parties that initially agreed to the payment of sick leave on termination or retirement, the employers, the employees, and their Unions.
The Labor Council said that the third option allowing for sick leave that has been accumulated prior to the enactment of the legislation to be preserved and used for illness or paid out on termination or retirement is the most equitable of the three.
The Hon. J. R. Johnson: Did you tell them fully about the others? Did you tell them that you were not going to take them into consideration this year and in subsequent years?
The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: I note the honourable member's interjection with respect to the principle of the pay out of sick leave. The Government has acknowledged the approach taken by the Labor Council as to the three options. The freezing of entitlement to sick leave and the use of existing entitlements for sick leave is a logical extension of that approach.
The Hon. J. R. Johnson: What about the issues paper?
The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: The position taken by the Government clearly arises as a result of its further consideration of the issues paper and the submissions forwarded in relation to this bill. This was not raised in State wage cases by the Government. The Government has strongly supported a broad agenda in relation to award restructuring. It came up in a number of recent State wage cases without specifically referring to the payment of unpaid sick leave as one of the examples. The Government has maintained that position. A matter raised by the Hon. Elisabeth Kirkby and Reverend the Hon. F. J. Nile was the approach enunciated by the Labor Council as being unfair circumstances in relation to this legislation; that is, the argument that this legislation would prohibit the payment of unpaid sick leave to the dependents of a deceased worker if those benefits had not been used up at the time of that person's demise. There is in fact nothing in this bill which would preclude payments continuing to be made. A payment will occur as provided for in the award stipulation relating to the death of the worker.
The Hon. J. W. Shaw: You should consider putting that beyond doubt.
The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: It is beyond doubt. If the honourable member looks at the legislation he will see clearly stated in subclause (2):
Accumulated sick leave is cashed-in if the leave is not taken and a payment is made by the employer to or on behalf of the employee of the amount of salary for the period of accumulated leave or of any other amount calculated by reference to that period.
Provided there is an award entitlement to the payment of sick leave, either to the employee or to another person on behalf of the employee, that is an award provision and
Page 7017
it is clearly preserved in this legislation.
The Hon. J. R. Johnson: Only if it is an award provision that states it shall be paid to the deceased member's spouse or whomever.
The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: That is not an alteration to the present law. An employee's dependant only receives a payment now if the award specifies that such a payment is entitled to be made. A payment is not made unless it is so provided in the award. The Government has recognised that award entitlement and preserved that payment under the award.
The Hon. J. W. Shaw: I would just like you to look at the definition of existing provisions.
The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: I note that that is an amendment the honourable member has referred to. I want it to be made clear to all members of the House that that is an entitlement to be recognised and has been preserved, notwithstanding the arguments which were being pushed by some people from the Labor Council to the contrary. It was an endeavour to suggest that the Government was trying to take away a right which would otherwise accrue to the dependants of the deceased. The Hon. Elisabeth Kirkby wanted an assurance that in the operation of subclause (6) workers' accumulated rights to the date of commencement of the legislation will not be unsatisfactorily extinguished so as to unfairly disadvantage the individual workers. Subclause (7) guarantees that casual accumulations up to the commencement date of the legislation are to be ultimately paid subject to the subclause (5) formula. It will then be for the free bargaining of employers and employees as to whether the cashable accumulation will be bought out. The choice is between employees wanting a present market value based on today's dollar amount or to wait until some time in the future and take an uncertain amount. Sick leave days will be subtracted from the prior total of the casual accumulations based on a future dollar value. The choice is one for the enterprise or the individual as the employer proposes. The Hon. Elisabeth Kirkby can rest assured about that matter. In relation to this matter, the Government has clearly indicated that there should be a cut-off period for the taking of sick leave; and the entitlement which had accrued should be retained. That is an adherence to our undertaking in relation to retrospectivity, because one of the options was to eliminate this entitlement completely. The Government was not prepared to pursue that approach; and we have adhered to that undertaking.
The Hon. J. R. Johnson: At this stage.
The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: It is not a question of at this stage, it is an undertaking which has been made and observed in the legislative framework. I have addressed all of the issues of concern which have been raised. If other issues need to be addressed in Committee I will do so. I commend the bill to the House for its support.
Question - That this bill be now read a second time - put.
The House divided.
Ayes, 19
Page 7018
Mrs Chadwick
Mr Coleman
Mrs Forsythe
Mr Gay
Dr Goldsmith
Mr Hannaford
Mr Jobling
Mr Jones
Miss Kirkby
Mr Moppett
Mr Mutch
Mrs Nile
Revd F. J. Nile
Dr Pezzutti
Mr Pickering
Mr Ryan
Mr Webster
Tellers,
Miss Gardiner
Mrs Sham-Ho
Noes, 14
Mrs Arena
Mr Dyer
Mrs Isaksen
Mr Johnson
Mr Kaldis
Mrs Kite
Mr Macdonald
Mr Manson
Mr Shaw
Mrs Symonds
Mr Vaughan
Mrs Walker
Tellers,
Dr Burgmann
Ms Burnswoods
Pairs
Mr Bull
Mrs Evans
Mr Samios
Mr Smith
Mr Egan
Mr Enderbury
Mr Obeid
Mr O'Grady
Question so resolved in the affirmative.
Motion agreed to.
Bill read a second time.
BUDGET ESTIMATES AND RELATED PAPERS
Financial Year 1992-93
Debate resumed from 14th October.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. PEZZUTTI [6.6]: I welcome the opportunity to talk to the Budget. Due to the good management of the State, this year a substantial amount of debt will be retired. That will bring to the people of New South Wales a lower rate of taxes and charges. Our tax levels this year will compare very favourably with those of the last year of the previous Labor Government, when the tax burden of this State was 9 per cent higher than the average of the other States. It is now substantially lower than the average of the other States. While many of the other States are borrowing more and more, through good management this Government has retired debt, and now less of the money that we collect goes towards paying those infamous interest rates which we hope will become a thing of the past. At the same time that we have retired debt, we have embarked on a major capital works program which will be boosted by $540 million, a rise in real terms of some 10 per cent. This is done in a very responsible way.
The Hon. J. F. Ryan: Only a third is from the Commonwealth.
Page 7019
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. PEZZUTTI: Very little is from the Commonwealth. Importantly, we are doing this by way of three major strategies. We will take more funds from government trading enterprises. When the coalition came to government the funds from GTEs amounted to $129 million; there has been a massive increase to $980 million. This has been substantially achieved while overall government charges have been below the estimated inflation rate during the period under review. Between 1987-88 and 1992-93, it is estimated that government charges declined by 0.8 per cent in real terms. Though there have been lower government charges, at the same time we have diminished our debt requirement and our debt payments. It is also important to realise in talking about the income that we will receive from GTEs that there has been proper recognition given to the community service obligations of those GTEs. Over time, the Government is making more transparent funds paid by GTEs to fulfil their community service obligations. Over time those obligations will be met by way of a public payment by the public purse rather than by the government trading enterprises, and the accounting will be much more clear.
Restraint in recurrent funding will continue this financial year. This year's one-off boost in capital works will give way in subsequent years to a no--growth strategy. In facing up to the collapse of our revenues, the less money this State receives from the Commonwealth in important areas such as health, the more selective increases in taxation may occur. We are moving to a more commercialised approach for our government trading enterprises. We are moving to reduce our net budget sector debt and contingent liabilities by undertaking major privatisation. I turn to the privatisation debate. This year, in spite of difficult times, the health budget will grow in real terms by somewhat less than 1 per cent. At the same time the Government will be maintaining its record level of $300 million or thereabouts in its capital works projects. One would think, on what the Deputy Leader of the Opposition has said, that the Government has cancelled every project or slowed most of them down. Nothing could be further from the truth. While the Government retains a $300 million budget for capital works, stages three and four of the Lismore Base Hospital will remain on target and funding will be maintained.
The opening of the new women's hospital at Liverpool will be on target for 1994. The $200 million project at Liverpool Hospital continues on target and is coming in a little under its budgeted cost. The funding undertaken by the Government for western Sydney and the North Coast is a recognition of the great needs of people in those areas. The Government has put enormous effort into capital works on the Central Coast, another growing area of the State, with a massive increase of about $21 million in real dollar terms in recurrent funding to staff, and will use the huge number of new beds at Wyong and Gosford hospitals. Both those places have received an enormous increase in funding for capital works projects, followed by necessary recurrent funding of $21 million to bring on to line the 220 beds being progressively opened at Gosford and Wyong. That represents $30 million each year from next year in recurrent terms. The Government is facing up to its responsibilities of providing funds to meet health needs appropriately.
The Hon. D. F. Moppett: The Government inherited some holes.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. PEZZUTTI: The Hon. D. F. Moppett has reminded me that the Government inherited a capital works deficit of about $2,000 million. That deficit was caused by the neglect by the former Labor Government of the health infrastructure in this State - infrastructure which the present Government has a very proud record of fixing.
Page 7020
The Hon. D. F. Moppett: Particularly in country areas.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. PEZZUTTI: Indeed. Though the Government is spending $5 million on a project for the Tweed Heads hospital, a project that is half completed, $5 million in recurrent funding must be found for those new operating theatres to function.
The Hon. D. F. Moppett: Labor did not even buy a can of paint for the Orana and Far Western regions.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. PEZZUTTI: The honourable member is correct. Most hospitals were run-down, and working conditions were poor. Pay levels for nurses were at a record low but under the present Government they have increased. Though all these projects are on line, sadly only a limited amount, albeit a record amount, is available for capital works. The Commonwealth Government continues to cut back this State's health funding each and every year under its twisted idea of the Medicare agreement. This State is receiving $250 million less than what it could reasonably expect on the basis of its population. That $250 million must be found by the State Government. In real dollar terms that money has been taken out of this State's consolidated revenue to continue to fund an appropriate health service of which the people of New South Wales can be proud. The Federal Government again has threatened to cut $21 million off this State's public health sector allocation, but claims that it is spending money to cut waiting lists. That cut will put another 8,000 on the waiting lists in this State, yet the Labor Government in Canberra says that it wants to spend money on health and that it is a caring government. What a joke!
Despite all the efforts made by the Government, some essential projects such as those for Port Macquarie and the Hawkesbury cannot be funded in the short term. Those areas were neglected by Labor whenever it was in office. The Government developed a new approach to provide public hospital facilities in co-operation with the private sector. I have watched the privatisation debate develop from the earliest time when it was proposed by the Hon. John Hannaford, the previous Minister for Health and Community Services, now the Attorney General, and Minister for Industrial Relations. The argument has been carried forward in discussions with the community at Port Macquarie by the present Minister for Health. In May 1992 a factual, non-political booklet was prepared by the Department of Health for the people of Port Macquarie. There is nothing new in what I am about to say about the Government's commitment for what was planned for the privatisation option at Port Macquarie. The new Port Macquarie hospital will go ahead now there is agreement on both sides of Parliament. In spite of entrenched left-wing attitudes of some screaming people the Government will provide the promised new hospital at Port Macquarie.
The Hon. Ann Symonds: Sixty per cent of the population of that area voted against it. Is that 60 per cent left-wing?
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. PEZZUTTI: The Hon. Ann Symonds chooses to refer to the so-called referendum, but I shall discuss that more deeply later in my contribution. The Port Macquarie Base Hospital - and it is a proper base hospital - will cater for every citizen of the district of Port Macquarie, not only for those in the Hastings shire. People from those areas will not have to travel to Sydney but will be able to attend Port Macquarie hospital, which will offer higher service, from levels three to four-five, a greater number of beds, increased from 108 to 161, a higher quality and range of specialist services and high quality care. More important, people attending that hospital
Page 7021
will come not only from the Hastings shire but also from Kempsey and many other shires. In one little shire, the Hastings shire, a referendum was held. It did not take account of all the people who might use the proposed facility. However, this public hospital will be built and operated by the private sector.
Every person in the Port Macquarie district will have the same - or better - access to the new public hospital at Port Macquarie as has been enjoyed in the past. There will be the same high quality nursing staff, medical staff and associated clinical staff and the same dedicated administrative and other hospital staff. A facts booklet for the people of Port Macquarie has been printed. It states, "As a public patient under the Labor Government's Medicare arrangement the cost of your hospital services will be met by the Department of Health in exactly the same way as any public patient in any other public hospital" - it recognises that it is a public hospital - "in New South Wales". But some 30 per cent more public patients will be treated at the new hospital. What is more, they will not wait as the Labor Party would have them wait, for five more years; the hospital will be constructed and operational within two years. Public patients will have the same access to hospital services and accommodation as any private patient.
The quality of care at Port Macquarie hospital will be of a standard equal to or higher than anywhere in New South Wales. Port Macquarie will get its new hospital several years earlier than could have been hoped under the current capital works program. Because of substantially increased government funding and more operating suites at the new hospital the present long waiting lists for certain types of elective surgery will be substantially reduced. The Federal Government has just reduced funding to New South Wales by $21 million, which will mean 8,000 more people waiting in pain in long queues in New South Wales. The range of services will be greatly expanded. Some that have not been available previously in Port Macquarie will be provided at the new base hospital in a very short time. The Government will ensure that the people of Port Macquarie continue to play an influential part in the future management of that hospital. That is very important. There will be no restrictions on further and future development of public health facilities at Wauchope, Kempsey and Camden Haven - or in any other surrounding district. Community health services will be enhanced and fully integrated with inpatient services at the hospital. The booklet is at considerable pains to deal with every step in a factual, non-emotional way so that the people of Port Macquarie could understand what was being proposed, to what advantage and the Government's reasons for doing it. There was not so much about why the Government was doing it; it was more about what was to be achieved. It dealt with the matter factually. It cut through the rhetoric and the scare campaign that the proposal involved Americanisation.
The people of Port Macquarie and surrounding districts, including Wauchope, welcome the arrangement. This is a wise decision. It will provide a hospital and a health care system which is under more scrutiny and which has to live up to a higher standard than any public hospital in the State at the moment. The hospital will have to have a private hospital licence and therefore will be subject to private hospital licensing arrangements, which are stricter than those for public hospitals. How many public hospitals can say that each of their rooms has a smoke detector? How many can say that they comply with the ordinance covering private hospitals? Not one. Yet every private hospital has to maintain that high level. Public hospitals are striving to achieve that higher level. The new hospital will have to maintain its accreditation under the Australian Council of Hospital Accreditation arrangements. It will have to meet standards in regard to staffing arrangements and the quality of staff appointments. These requirements are in the contract and will be policed. Financial penalties are provided for
Page 7022
non-compliance and if the conditions are not met the contract will become void and the Government will take over the hospital or find another operator. The public will be guaranteed a higher level of service and a greater range of service and, much more importantly, a larger number of services. In every way possible this hospital will offer the customers in Port Macquarie an institution that will provide much better care, a wider range of services and less need to travel.
I visited Port Macquarie a number of times with the Minister. He sat down with people, walked through the project and met nurses, caterers, physiotherapists, doctors and people in the street. He attended public meetings and morning teas and generally made himself available. He spoke to the boards of hospitals in adjacent areas such as Wauchope. He stationed people in Port Macquarie to answer all possible questions. Our colleague in another place, Dr Peter Macdonald, agreed with what the Minister was saying following further undertakings from the Minister, which are on the public record. The Minister for Health has made this proposal achievable through his clarity of understanding and determination to inform the public of the facts. In spite of the obstacles and the bomb throwing by Labor Party members and their cronies this project will live as a demonstration of co-operation between private capital, public funding, high technology and dedicated professionals to provide community health care needs. This project is the only possible way for the Minister to provide this level of service, this range of services and an increased number of services to an ageing and needy population - and not a wealthy one.
Throughout the process we have been hearing tales. The latest scare was that the Government will not go ahead with redevelopment at Coffs Harbour. We have heard that the Government intends to close or privatise another hospital. Only certain projects are suitable for this sort of arrangement. The private sector has to be interested in providing public services at the efficient level required. Some such projects have been identified. Already the Sisters of Charity have shown an interest in working with the State Government in providing a higher range and quality of services somewhere in the southwest of the Sydney. The State Government has agreed to purchase services from St Vincent's Hospital in Lismore. It previously was a public hospital but is now private. The Benevolent Society of New South Wales found the going a bit tough so the New South Wales Government will do a reverse privatisation, a socialisation: it will take up and continue to operate the high quality services that were offered before on behalf of the Government by the benevolent society. Those services will continue to be offered, in particular gynaecological oncology services for the State - a statewide resource.
The Hon. Ann Symonds: That is ridiculous. If you were putting through legislation to protect those services, that would be fine. If you do not, it will be -
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. PEZZUTTI: The Government has undertaken to continue the services at the Royal Hospital for Women, in particular the gynaecological oncology services. At some stage we will have to do that, because we made that commitment. The Benevolent Society walked away from it.
The Hon. Ann Symonds: It was pushed out.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. PEZZUTTI: It walked away from it. The Minister for Health will have to find at least $100 million of capital funds to rebuild services that have been left to go to pot by the Benevolent Society. Those services will have to be provided on another campus because the Benevolent Society wants its land back. That land is valued at an enormous amount. The society wants its land back and it wants to do
Page 7023
something else with the money. I do not know what it intends to do, but I know that because of its charter it will have to be something benevolent for the people of New South Wales. But this Government and the Minister for Health, Ron Phillips, knew precisely what they were doing when the Minister decided that he would continue to run those services. The Minister knew that he would have to find at least $100 million to rebuild the facilities, rehouse them and maintain the services, which are an essential part of the services for women and children - women in particular - in New South Wales; not just the people in the eastern suburbs. The books will demonstrate the substantial number of people who go to the hospital for gynaecological oncology services. The services are designed specifically for women from the country. At the Royal Hospital for Women they can get those high quality, highly specialised services.
The Hon. Ann Symonds: How is that service going to be transferred? Millions of dollars have been spent on establishing that unit. Why is the Government dismantling it?
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. PEZZUTTI: This Government spent a lot of money -
The Hon. Ann Symonds: As did the former Government.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. PEZZUTTI: The gynaecological oncology unit at the Royal Hospital for Women is entirely a creation of the Hon. Peter Collins and the Hon. John Hannaford.
The Hon. Ann Symonds: That is not so.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. PEZZUTTI: It is, entirely.
The Hon. Ann Symonds: The honourable member should ask the professor in charge. That is not so.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. PEZZUTTI: I went to the opening of the unit with the Hon. Peter Collins and I have visited on a number of occasions since then. I happen to know Professor Hacker extremely well.
The Hon. Ann Symonds: So do I.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. PEZZUTTI: And I know a lot of the people who have donated money for the operation of that unit.
The Hon. Ann Symonds: And so do I.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. PEZZUTTI: How come we know so many of the same people and we do not move in the same social circles? The point is that, in building up that unit, in good faith the Government put large amounts of capital money into the project, only to find that it was incapable of being operated and run by the Benevolent Society. I say that without recriminations. I shall demonstrate where the problem lies with some of these operations. The number of women going to the Royal Hospital for Women for births dropped, because this Government took birthing units to the west and took intensive care beds to the west - to Penrith and Liverpool. The Government moved those beds and opened the facilities for having babies in those places.
The Hon. J. F. Ryan: Where did those beds go to?
Page 7024
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. PEZZUTTI: To Penrith.
The Hon. J. F. Ryan: Previously about 41 per cent of those residents had to go somewhere else for those services.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. PEZZUTTI: That is right. Because of that the women made choices about where they would have their babies.
The Hon. Patricia Forsythe: They had them locally.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. PEZZUTTI: They had them locally - surprise, surprise! So the number of women who were choosing to have their babies at the Royal Hospital for Women declined. No one in this State is directed where they will have their babies. Even public patients have a choice. The former Labor Government forced women to travel all the way from Penrith to the Royal Hospital for Women simply because there were not any obstetrics beds. That Government closed the Women's Hospital at Crown Street. What did it do with that hospital? What happened to the women's hospital? It just disappeared - finished! There was no more women's hospital. The number of women having babies at the Royal Hospital for Women decreased. The bed day rate of occupancy for women having babies was falling. Just like Princess Di, women were having their babies and going home. Most hospitals in the State - including Lismore Base Hospital and the Blue Mountains Anzac District Memorial Hospital, which I visited only a month ago - have an early discharge policy and high support service for women: get the healthy women and the healthy babies out of harm's way, out of hospitals where there is sickness and a risk of contracting illness; get them home and send midwives to visit them in their homes; support them in the house and visit them on a regular basis. The occupancy rate at most hospitals dropped. But at the Royal Hospital for Women, for some reason, the occupancy rate stayed the same, with fewer babies being delivered. The length of stays stayed the same.
The Hon. Patricia Forsythe: Were they coming in from Penrith?
The Hon. Ann Symonds: Were they too sick to stay there? Were the women making the medical decisions and choosing to stay?
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. PEZZUTTI: That is a good question. But the bed occupancy rate at the Royal Hospital for Women stayed the same. Therefore costs increased. That is a remarkable event. It was expected that the cost of obstetrics would decrease and the money could be used more for the gynaecological oncology centre, for which the hospital is world famous. But no, there were more and more demands for the same.
The Hon. Ann Symonds: Did the honourable member say the hospital was world famous?
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. PEZZUTTI: For gynaecological oncology - absolutely.
The Hon. Ann Symonds: Why is the Government intruding to destroy that facility?
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. PEZZUTTI: It is not, and that is the point. That is why the Minister will spend $100 million relocating that service. That is why he stepped in, to take over the service because the Benevolent Society said that it would not run the hospital any more.
Page 7025
The Hon. Ann Symonds: It did not say that. It was forced out by the withdrawal of funds by the Government.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. PEZZUTTI: The honourable member should supply the evidence.
The Hon. Ann Symonds: I was on the board of the hospital.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. PEZZUTTI: Not when it was just finished.
The Hon. Ann Symonds: When decisions were being made.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. PEZZUTTI: It was years ago when the honourable member was on the board.
The Hon. Ann Symonds: In 1988.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. PEZZUTTI: But not in 1991.
The Hon. Ann Symonds: Peter Collins took a while to get rid of me. He could not work out how to remove me from the board.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. PEZZUTTI: The Minister for Health has made a very strong decision to maintain those services. He has to move them from that land because he does not own it and the Government does not have the money to buy it. He will move the services to another site. I do not know what the favoured site is. The Minister is going through a series of consultations. Nevertheless, I can say without hesitation that I have a press release from the Minister in front of me, dated 16th September, which reads:
As part of the $200 million development of the Liverpool Hospital site, by February 1994 a new women's hospital will be built and occupied.
That is terribly important. About 10,000 births a year occur in the southwest of Sydney. Prior to the Government spending that sort of money - not simply moving a building but giving much more recurrent funding to the southwest - most of those women had to come to the city to have their babies. Now there are birthing units at Blacktown and Penrith.
The Hon. Ann Symonds: All pioneered by the Royal Hospital for Women.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. PEZZUTTI: Paid for by Ron Phillips.
The Hon. Ann Symonds: What generosity!
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. PEZZUTTI: The Minister is responsible for it. Any Minister who is responsible for something can say that he paid for it. It was the taxpayers' money, but only one person is responsible for it - as the Parliament acknowledges - and that is the Minister for Health.
The Hon. Jennifer Gardiner: A good Minister he is, too.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. PEZZUTTI: That is right. Recurrent funding for women's services at the Liverpool campus will be boosted from $3 million to $15 million upon commissioning of the new hospital for women. That is an enormous boost, as the Hon. Ann Symonds will acknowledge, for the treatment of women and the provision of women's services in the southwest.
Page 7026
The Hon. Ann Symonds: It is to be applauded.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. PEZZUTTI: I have not yet got to the commitment to the same sorts of services at Penrith. That will help provide health care to the people of the Blue Mountains. I was up at the Blue Mountains the other day with the very good local member, Barry Morris. I spoke to the obstetrician and gynaecologist there. When Barry Morris became the member for Blue Mountains there was only one obstetrician and gynaecologist. Now there are two, and there are two paediatricians at the Blue Mountains Anzac District Memorial Hospital. More importantly, the first thing the Government did was to spend $750,000 on urgent repairs to the obstetrics wing of the hospital. There was a hole in the bathroom over which a chair had to be placed so the women would not fall down the hole. That is a good example of what the Government inherited from Bob Debus, the former member. He tried to defend his position. Peter Collins was horrified and had to provide urgently $750,000 to revamp the obstetrics wing, or close it. The Government determined that the Blue Mountains area needed obstetric services and provided the necessary funding urgently. Last week the Minister provided $900,000 for an upgrade of the children's ward. Small amounts of money go a long way in relatively small communities. Children and mothers with babies in the Blue Mountains receive a better deal because not only are decent services provided at the Blue Mountains hospital, but just down the road are Penrith's neonatal intensive care beds. Those beds were not there during the term of office of the previous Government even though in early 1988 the former Minister for Health, Peter Anderson, was the member for Penrith. He did not see fit to provide neonatal intensive care beds.
The Hon. Patricia Forsythe: He did not know it was a marginal electorate.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. PEZZUTTI: He did not know it was a marginal electorate. The Hon. R. S. L. Jones has said that the electorate of the Blue Mountains is marginal. Most of the money being spent to help the people of the Blue Mountains is being spent in Penrith, and that is not even a Liberal electorate.
The Hon. R. S. L. Jones: Not yet.
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. PEZZUTTI: The Government will get it back when people realise the amount of money it has spent in equity and fairness to provide the people of the west, the southwest and the Blue Mountains not merely with dollars for buildings but dollars for attracting and paying high-quality staff, providing specialist services and providing the real fuel that drives the engine. The people of that area have been neglected by the lot opposite. Despite all her hand wringing, the Hon. Ann Symonds, dripping wet leftie that she is, could not get the right-wing to put its money where its mouth is. Andrew Refshauge, the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, has the gall to travel around the countryside telling bigger whoppers than Bob Carr. He keeps saying, "Health funding is being cut". The health budget has increased each and every year.
The Hon. R. S. L. Jones: What is happening in Byron Bay?
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. PEZZUTTI: Many people are being treated very well. The Government has reallocated money to where the growth and the need is. The Government is doing that in an intelligent sensible way, but buildings must be constructed first. The children's hospital, a centre of world excellence, is to be moved to the west. It is a huge site; it looks like Westmead revisited.
Debate adjourned on motion by the Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti.
Page 7027
JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE UPON POLICE ADMINISTRATION
Suspension of certain standing and sessional orders, by leave, agreed to.
The Hon. M. R. EGAN (Leader of the Opposition) [6.46]: I move:
That Mr Gay and Mr Mutch be discharged from the Joint Select Committee upon Police Administration and that Mrs Forsythe and Mr Moppett be appointed as members of such committee.
I indicate to the House that, following discussions between the Government, the Opposition and, I understand, Mr Hatton, it has been agreed by all parties, although it seems that the Minister for Justice, Minister for Emergency Services and Minister Assisting the Premier took some time this afternoon to agree to it, at least for his part -
The Hon. E. P. Pickering: That is an absolutely outrageous lie.
The Hon. M. R. EGAN: I did not assert that. I said it seemed that way because the arrangement that I understood was arrived at between Mr Hatton, the Premier and the Leader of the Opposition, Mr Carr, was made quite some time ago and we have been subjected during the last hour to all sorts of scurrying around in this Chamber with conferences and subconferences, and distressed and angry faces. I am only assuming that the agreement that was reached between the Opposition, the Premier and Mr Hatton did not immediately have the concurrence of the Leader of the Government in this House. As I understand it, the Leader of the Government will move an amendment to my motion to discharge both the Hon. S. B. Mutch and myself from the committee in favour of the Hon. J. W. Shaw and the Hon. J. H. Jobling. My colleague the Hon. R. D. Dyer will move another amendment, so that the Opposition will support the discharge of the Hon. D. J. Gay, the Hon. S. B. Mutch and myself and the replacement of those three people by the Hon. D. F. Moppett, the Hon. J. H. Jobling and the Hon. J. W. Shaw. Yesterday I made it clear to the House that if the Parliament proceeded with establishing a select committee chaired by the Hon. D. J. Gay, the committee would be perceived by the public of New South Wales and by the Police Service of New South Wales to be a kangaroo court. When I spoke yesterday afternoon I thought the Government had merely made a mistake and had not thought through the consequences of the Hon. D. J. Gay chairing the select committee. All honourable members know what happens in this place: things move fast and all sorts of issues are exercising people's minds in the course of a single day.
The fact that it is now obvious that there is widespread opposition, particularly from the Police Association of New South Wales, to the Hon. D. J. Gay's chairmanship leads me to the conclusion that all along it was the Government's intention that this be a kangaroo court. The Government can indeed be in no doubt about the views of the Police Association. I doubt, given the media coverage, that the Government could be in any doubt at all that the public will also perceive this committee, while it is headed by the Hon. Duncan Gay, as a kangaroo court. It is similar to any citizen appearing before an inquiry or a court of law knowing that the chief judge has already declared that person guilty. This is now the position of senior police officers of New South Wales right up to the level of the commissioner. They will be fronting up to a joint select committee of this Parliament headed by a member who has already declared his belief that they are guilty. If that is not a kangaroo court, I do not know what is. By proceeding along those lines the court is doing a grave disservice not only to the work of the committee, which is very important work indeed, but also to the Parliament and, in fact, to itself. The Opposition will move a further amendment to the amendment being moved by the Leader
Page 7028
of the Government so that its agreement with the Premier and Mr Hatton is adhered to. Certainly the Opposition will also persist with its view, which I think has now been established, that the chairmanship of the Hon. Duncan Gay on this committee taints the committee right from the start.
The Hon. E. P. PICKERING (Minister for Justice, Minister for Emergency Services, Minister Assisting the Premier, and Vice-President of the Executive Council) [6.52]: I move:
That the question be amended by the omission of all words after "That", with a view to inserting instead: "Mr Egan and Mr Mutch be discharged from the Joint Select Committee Upon Police Administration and that Mr Shaw and Mr Jobling be appointed as members of such committee".
In view of the earlier comments of the Leader of the Opposition I shall comment on this matter at a time when I had frankly not intended to. I put on the record that it is simply untrue that I have at any time during the course of this day stood in the way of this arrangement. I state that as a matter of fact. There are honourable members opposite who could attest to that. I do not ask them to do that publicly but I ask them to speak to their leader to get him to be a little more honourable than he has been to date with his dealings with members of this House. I had occasion today to reprimand the Leader of the Opposition privately on the way in which he spoke in this House. I put that on the record as a statement of absolute fact. The Leader of the Opposition has complained about the composition of the committee. Last night when the committee was created not one word was spoken against my friend and colleague the Hon. S. B. Mutch. It is now alleged that the Hon. S. B. Mutch is not suitable to the Hon. M. R. Egan because he worked for me. The Hon. M. R. Egan then moved a motion suggesting that instead of the Hon. S. B. Mutch we appoint the Hon. Patricia Forsythe. She also used to work for me. Obviously, using the same criterion, she could not stand. If the Leader of the Opposition wishes to appoint people on this side of the House who are not my friends, he will have a problem. By an agreement arrived at between the Leader of the Opposition in another place and the Premier of New South Wales, I accepted the advice of the Premier to put this amendment before the House, which I am advised by the Premier was agreed to by both sides of the House and was certainly agreed to in a telephone conversation I listened to in the Premier's office a few minutes ago. Quite frankly I take exception to the comments made earlier by the Leader of the Opposition
The Hon. D. J. GAY [6.55]: Earlier today at a press conference I made a commitment that I would withdraw certain remarks made by me in this House. I made that commitment because I have respect for the propriety of the Parliament and what it is about. I made the comment in the heat of the moment. I have not repeated the comment, which the Labor Party went to considerable trouble to make sure was included in Hansard though I do not resile from the fact that I did make it. I made it in the heat of the moment and I totally and unequivocally withdraw the comment, 100 per cent. I believe there should be standards. I have always applied standards to my life and I know that members of the Opposition privately would not question my credibility or the fact that I operate in this Parliament within the committee systems as a true parliamentarian. Sadly, some members of the Opposition - and I could not include all the Opposition - but certainly the Leader of the Opposition in another place, Bob Carr, and the Hon. Michael Egan do not operate by the standards that we would expect of parliamentarians and the standards of their once great parliamentary party, the Labor Party. It is the saddest thing to see the lowering of standards. It is just unbelievable that these members could make something of this matter that is important to the people of this State -
Page 7029
The PRESIDENT: Order! I cannot hear the Hon. Duncan Gay because of the level of conversation in the Chamber.
The Hon. D. J. GAY: - and very important to the people who were affected and to the terms of reference of the committee. The acts of Bob Carr and the Hon. Michael Egan in, first, breaking their word given to the Premier today on the change to the committee membership and, second, to politicise continually what should be an important investigation by a committee on behalf of the people of New South Wales show the unbelievable levels to which they will stoop. It is incredible that originally Bob Carr nominated for this important committee the Hon. Jeff Shaw, Q.C. , and then replaced him with his own private personal head kicker, Michael Egan. I am saddened by the activity of these two people. I do not include all members of the Labor Party and the people that they represent because I know personally that they would abhor these tactics.
The Hon. R. D. DYER [7.00]: I move:
That the motion be amended so as to read:
That the amendment of Mr Pickering be amended by the omission of all words after "That", with a view to inserting instead: "Mr Gay, Mr Mutch and Mr Egan be discharged from the Joint Select Committee upon Police Administration and that Mr Moppett, Mr Jobling and Mr Shaw be appointed as members of such committee".
The remarks I wish to make in support of the amendment are relatively brief. The Opposition takes the view, as will be apparent to all honourable members, that the Hon. D. J. Gay is affected by the appearance of bias. I want it to be absolutely clear what I am saying in that regard. I have great respect for the Hon. D. J. Gay, having served with him on the Committee upon the Independent Commission Against Corruption, but it is well known in the courts of this State and of this country that there is a difference between actual bias and the appearance of bias. If an allegation is made to a judge who is hearing a particular proceeding, for example that he knows one of the parties or has heard proceedings previously involving one of the parties, that judicial officer is objected to for the purpose of hearing that particular proceeding. I draw that analogy because it would not be said by the legal representative of that party that the particular judge, or magistrate for that matter, to whom objection was taken is guilty of actual bias. But justice must not only be done, it must appear to be done.
The point was taken yesterday in this House and in the media that, the Hon. D. J. Gay having uttered a particular interjection at the time that the former Minister for Police and Emergency Services was speaking in this House on the Rigg matter, he is presumed to have some position regarding the matter to be inquired into by the Joint Select Committee upon Police Administration. Those criticisms have been uttered not only by the Leader of the Opposition in this House; they have been uttered also, for example, by Mr Garry Dunn of the Police Association of New South Wales. Members of the Opposition have said that the Hon. D. J. Gay, although undoubtedly an honest, decent and moral person, is affected by the appearance of bias, he having said in this House that the Minister was "set up" in regard to the Rigg matter. That is all I wish to say. That is why the Opposition is seeking the removal of the Hon. D. J. Gay from the chairmanship and membership of the Joint Select Committee upon Police Administration.
The Hon. E. P. PICKERING (Minister for Justice, Minister for Emergency Services, Minister Assisting the Premier, and Vice-President of the Executive Council) [7.3]: I wish to exercise my right in accordance with the standing orders to speak to the amendment just moved by the Hon. R. D. Dyer but, of course, only to that amendment
Page 7030
as I am speaking for the second time in the debate. In view of what has now happened, I feel obliged as Leader of the Government to advise the House of the detailed circumstances which led to the proposed amendment, so that all honourable members are aware of those circumstances. Most honourable members, if not all, would know that this morning press conferences were held by Leader of the Opposition, Mr Carr, and members of the Police Association, complaining about the membership structure of the select committee that was agreed to by both Houses of the Parliament yesterday. The upshot of that was that early this morning when the House was considering formal business, the Leader of the Opposition gave notice of a motion which would have had the impact of removing the Hon. D. J. Gay and the Hon. S. B. Mutch from membership and replacing them with the Hon. Patricia Forsythe and the Hon. D. F. Moppett. I was concerned that the select committee should convene tonight at 6 o'clock, as was planned, with such a notice of motion before the House. It was an untidy note that offended my sensibilities.
Discussions have taken place throughout the course of the day in regard to this matter, primarily between the office of the Leader of the Opposition in another place and the Premier's office. I have been made aware of those proceedings at various times. It is fair to say that only 10 or 15 minutes before I brought this particular matter before the House I was in the Premier's office when, in a phone call to the Premier the honourable member for South Coast advised the Premier that an agreement had been reached between the Leader of the Opposition, Mr Carr, and himself. For the record I indicate that the honourable member for South Coast, Mr Hatton, has just entered the Legislative Council Chamber and is sitting in the President's gallery, listening to every word I say. It was my understanding - communicated to me by the Premier - that it had been agreed there should be an alteration to the committee to the effect that the Leader of the Opposition, the Hon. M. R. Egan, would be replaced by the Hon. J. W. Shaw, and the Hon. S. B. Mutch would be replaced by the Hon. J. H. Jobling. I can tell the House that at no time during the course of the day has the Hon. D. J. Gay's membership been in dispute.
The Hon. M. R. Egan: Oh, come on. What a joke.
The Hon. E. P. PICKERING: I have just told the House that, so far as I am concerned, during the course of the day the Hon. D. J. Gay's membership as chairman of the committee has not been in dispute.
The Hon. M. R. Egan: That is untrue. There have been press conferences all day about it.
The Hon. E. P. PICKERING: I am talking in terms of negotiations between the leaders. I was asked by the Premier to come to this Chamber and to meet the Leader of the Opposition, the Hon. M. R. Egan, who would be communicated with in the meantime by the Leader of the Opposition in another place, Mr Carr; that we should agree on the arrangements and proceed to put them into place. Just outside the door of the Chamber I saw the Leader of the Opposition and I asked him if he had received an instruction from Mr Carr. He said he had. I said, "What instruction do you have?" and his exact words were, "I'm supposed to be replaced by Mr Shaw and you are supposed to do the Liberal Party change". I said, "What is your understanding about our change?" He said, "I understand Mutch for Jobling". I said, "Then, that is the arrangement we will go into the House and put into place?" and he said, "Yes". That is the arrangement I put to the House a moment ago by way of motion. I would like to put on the record that, in terms of the involvement in the past half hour or so of the honourable member for South Coast, I hope that he will be kind enough to nod his assent to what I have said to the House.
Page 7031
The Hon. M. R. Egan: Come on!
The Hon. E. P. PICKERING: This is a matter for the record, and I want the record to show that the honourable member for South Coast did in fact nod his assent to indicate that what I have told the House is the truth. I find it exceedingly difficult -
The Hon. B. H. Vaughan: He is not in the House.
The Hon. E. P. PICKERING: He is sitting in the President's gallery. I can see him and so can you. He has a perfect right to sit in the President's gallery.
The PRESIDENT: Order! It will facilitate orderly debate if the Minister is permitted to proceed with a minimum of interruption.
The Hon. E. P. PICKERING: The point I wish to now make, and I make it with some distress, is that I have been in this House for many years as either Leader of the Opposition or Leader of the Government and I have never - never in the whole time I have been here - made a deal or an arrangement with the Leader of the Opposition and had it blatantly broken within a few minutes.
The Hon. M. R. Egan: It has not been broken.
The Hon. E. P. PICKERING: It has been broken because the Leader of the Opposition instructed - and I say this advisedly - the Hon. R. D. Dyer to move an amendment to remove the chairman of the committee. The Hon. R. D. Dyer feels as uncomfortable with that as anyone could. He is a man of honour, a man for whom I have a high regard.
The Hon. M. R. Egan: Because you informed him that it was a breach of an undertaking. He checked with our leader and found it was not.
The Hon. E. P. PICKERING: It is an absolute breach of an undertaking. I did inform him it was a breach of an undertaking agreed to between the Opposition and the Government. I repeat: in all the discussions of which I have been aware - and I am not suggesting I have been involved in all the discussions; I have not, but I have been kept informed because, obviously, I had to come into the Chamber to put the matter into place - at no time has the suggestion of the membership of the Hon. D. J. Gay been questioned. I can tell the House that had it been, I would have resisted it strongly. I have not resisted any suggestion of change put to me today, and the honourable member for South Coast would be the first to agree with that. For that reason I believe I have been dealt with in a very dishonourable way by the Opposition, and for that reason I speak against this amendment and I will ensure that the Government votes against it, and I would hope that, in view of what has happened, we would get crossbench support.
The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY [7.11]: Until a few moments ago I had no knowledge of the discussions that took place today between the Premier, the Leader of the Opposition and, from time to time, the honourable member for South Coast. As the Minister for Justice, Minister for Emergency Services and Minister Assisting the Premier said, I have had absolutely no knowledge of what occurred in those discussions. The Hon. D. J. Gay held a press conference today, and I know that members of the Opposition were aware of that because we were all seated at the same table in the parliamentary dining room at lunch. The press conference was easily seen taking place in the Domain. I had no knowledge of what the Hon. D. J. Gay said at that press
Page 7032
conference until he gave me brief indication in the lift. It had no bearing whatsoever on what is being debated in the House at the moment. However, when I heard what the Minister was moving and what the Leader of the Opposition and the Hon. R. D. Dyer were moving by way of amendment and the tenor of this debate, I saw fit to speak to the honourable member for South Coast. He has given me leave to inform the House that he is very angry about the way the Opposition is handling the matter; that the agreement that he understood was exactly as the Leader of the Government in this House had explained to honourable members: that the Hon. J. H. Jobling should replace the Hon. S. B. Mutch, and the Leader of the Opposition should be replaced by the Hon. J. W. Shaw. The honourable member for South Coast has informed me that at no time was it suggested during those negotiations that the Hon. D. J. Gay should be removed from the committee. That needs to be put on the record because I believe that if there are to be negotiations between the Premier of this State and the Leader of the Opposition in this State - who is the leader of the alternative government - and those agreements are reached in good faith, if members of the Opposition, for reasons best known to themselves, decide to change them when they come into the Chamber, that is absolutely wrong.
The Hon. E. P. Pickering: Who is the Leader of the Opposition? The Hon. M. R. Egan or Mr Carr?
The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: Who is the Leader of the Opposition? Is it the leader in another place or does the Hon. M. R. Egan assume that now? I do not believe he has the moral right to override an agreement that his -
The Hon. M. R. Egan: You were not a party to any discussions so you do not know what was agreed.
The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: No, I was not but I am taking the word of the honourable member for South Coast. The honourable member for South Coast has suggested to me that not only does he confirm what the Leader of the Government has said, but during those discussions he was taking diary notes.
The Hon. E. P. Pickering: Extensive diary notes.
The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: Extensive diary notes - which, as honourable members know from what has happened in recent months, would form a fairly substantial part of evidence if it were ever necessary. The honourable member for South Coast has also informed me that he is extremely angry because it has been suggested over the past 24 hours - and suggested in this Chamber - that he has been acting as a sort of power broker and has been attempting to use his position as a non-aligned Independent in another place, because the Independents hold the balance of power, to manipulate events. That was suggested obliquely about the very small part I played in this affair. I would like to place on record that at no time did I believe I could be a power broker, nor do I believe that the honourable member for South Coast has been abusing his position. He has been trying sensibly, calmly and honourably to reach an accommodation so that this committee can proceed without further politicisation. The longer that honourable members debate in this House the composition of the committee the more politicised it will become. That is why I hoped from the beginning that there could be a judicial inquiry, but the Leader of the Opposition in another place made it quite clear to me that there was no possibility of a judicial inquiry. At that point I realised if the situation arose to appoint a joint parliamentary select committee, the only option open to me was to support it. For this matter to be so politicised and to have amendment after amendment, which is exactly why last night when I was asked by the Leader of the Opposition, the Hon. M. R. Egan -
Page 7033
The Hon. M. R. Egan: You changed your mind four times in an hour.
The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: I did not change my mind. Mr President, will you request the Leader of the Opposition to withdraw that remark because that is not true. I did not change my mind four times in an hour, and I request the Leader of the Opposition to withdraw that remark.
The Hon. M. R. Egan: It is a matter of fact.
The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: It is offensive and it is not a matter of fact and I request that he withdraw.
The Hon. M. R. Egan: It is a matter of record that the Hon. Elisabeth Kirkby stood in this House and put on the record of this Parliament that she would vote for my amendment. It is also a matter of record that she subsequently voted against it.
The PRESIDENT: Order! I take the view that it is not offensive for a member to state that another has "changed his or her mind four times in one hour". It is a matter which could be construed as being grounds for a personal explanation or for refutation of that allegation in debate. Therefore it is not appropriate for the honourable member to be called on to withdraw.
The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: Have I leave then to make a personal explanation during debate - to clear the record? I have already made one personal explanation.
The PRESIDENT: Order! It is not necessary for the honourable member to seek leave to make a personal explanation. She may refute the allegation in debate.
The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: As all honourable members are aware, last night in the adjournment debate I outlined fully why I had changed my mind once - not four times.
The PRESIDENT: Order! The honourable member does not need assistance in making her explanation.
The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: I gave a full explanation to the House and I also paid the Leader of the Opposition the courtesy of informing him before a vote was taken that, although I had said during the debate on the motion that I would vote with the Opposition, when I had heard further argument and had further consultation I decided it was not in the best interests of the committee, and that I would vote with the Government. That is not changing one's mind four times in an hour. It is changing one's mind, but in an honourable manner. I paid Opposition members the courtesy of telling them before the division was called, and also of making a full personal explanation to members of the House who were not present at that time. However that is not germane to the motion before the House. I believe that this constant wrangling over the composition of the committee will inevitably affect its standing far more than the question of who is to be elected its chairman. At all times I have acted honourably in this matter and I believe that the honourable member for South Coast also has acted in the best interests of the Parliament.
Page 7034
The issue that we are trying to resolve is whether the Parliament has the authority to establish a committee to inquire into matters that affect every citizen in this State. It is not a question of the Opposition believing or not believing the events of the Angus Rigg affair so far as we know them at present. It is not a matter of whether we should investigate the Angus Rigg affair further. Because there has obviously been a serious breakdown in the lines of communication between the Police Service and the Executive Government, lines of accountability should be clearly stated, and that is the purpose of the committee. That can only be in the best interests of the people of New South Wales. I am certain from discussions I have had with the honourable member for South Coast that he too is of that belief. He has tried to facilitate an operation, a negotiation, that would allow a committee to be set up which would not become a political football. Finally, I resent the fact that after an agreement was reached between the Leader of the Government in this House and the Leader of the Opposition, the Leader of the Opposition for whatever reason has attempted by way of an amended motion to renege on that agreement. That is totally and absolutely wrong and I will not support him.
The Hon. M. R. EGAN (Leader of the Opposition) [7.24], in reply: It amazes me that the Hon. Elisabeth Kirkby can make a most offensive statement - that I reneged on an arrangement with the Leader of the Government in this House - yet in the same speech take exception when I -
The Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti: The Leader of the Government said the same thing.
The Hon. M. R. EGAN: That is right, but at least he did not take exception to the statement.
The Hon. E. P. Pickering: I take great exception to your behaviour. I think you are a man without honour.
The Hon. M. R. EGAN: The Hon. Elisabeth Kirkby wanted me to withdraw the statement that she had changed her mind four times. Last night when the honourable member was sitting on the crossbenches I informed her that I would move for the discharge of the Hon. D. J. Gay and his replacement by the Hon. R. T. M. Bull. She said, "I will support that". She later came over to the Opposition benches and indicated that she had changed her mind. I then moved the amendment in the belief that I did not have her support, but she rose to speak and indicated, to my surprise, that she would support my amendment, and then changed her mind again. That is at least three times, and if I said four I stand corrected. But that is an insignificant and minor point. No one would deny that the Hon. Elisabeth Kirkby, not for the first time in this House, changed her mind between the time that she indicated what she would do during her speech and the time that the actual vote was taken.
Finally, I shall deal with the arrangement between me and the Leader of the Government in this House. The Leader of the Government is correct in saying that we had a brief discussion outside this Chamber. On the basis of communications with my leader in the other place, I understood that we were agreeing that the Hon. S. B. Mutch and I would be discharged from the committee, and that in our place the Hon. J. H. Jobling and the Hon. J. W. Shaw would be appointed. As I understand - though it was not part of any agreement - the Hon Ted Pickering said to me outside the Chamber, "The way we will do that is I will seek leave to bring your motion on and I will then amend it". I want to make it quite clear that, but for the Opposition agreeing to leave being given, the Hon Ted Pickering could not have moved his amendment.
Page 7035
The Hon. E. P. Pickering: I could not agree more. It was with your approval.
The Hon. M. R. EGAN: Yes, with my approval. However, if the Hon. Ted Pickering or anyone else thinks that an agreement between the Opposition and the Government - that my place on the committee would be taken by the Hon. J. W. Shaw, the place of the Hon. S. B. Mutch would be taken by the Hon. J. H. Jobling and that the Opposition would facilitate that happening - precluded the Opposition from proceeding with its stated objective that it would also seek the discharge of the Hon. D. J. Gay, beggars belief. Does the Hon. Ted Pickering really believe, after the statements that I have made in this House, and after the statements by the Leader of the Opposition in another place and the statements made by the Leader of the Opposition and the honourable member for Liverpool at a press conference today, that we would desist from our view that the Hon. D. J. Gay should not be chairing this committee? Of course he would not.
The Hon. R. T. M. Bull: You made the deal.
The Hon. M. R. EGAN: The deal is a separate issue entirely. The arrangement that the Hon. J. W. Shaw would take my place and the Hon. J. H. Jobling would take the place of the Hon. S. B. Mutch at no stage precluded the Opposition from proceeding with its insistence that the Hon. D. J. Gay should also be discharged from the committee. It is absolutely ludicrous proposition. If the Leader of the Government believes that the Opposition, even after facilitating the movement of his amendment - which no doubt will be carried, given the numbers in this House - has broken an agreement, he is a very odd character indeed.
Question - That the amendment of the Hon. R. D. Dyer to the amendment of the Hon. E. P. Pickering be agreed to - put.
The House divided.
Ayes, 16
Mrs Arena
Dr Burgmann
Ms Burnswoods
Mr Dyer
Mr Egan
Mrs Isaksen
Mr Johnson
Mr Kaldis
Mr Manson
Mrs Nile
Revd F. J. Nile
Mr Shaw
Mr Vaughan
Mrs Walker
Tellers,
Mrs Kite
Mrs Symonds
Noes, 17
Mrs Chadwick
Mr Coleman
Miss Gardiner
Dr Goldsmith
Mr Hannaford
Mr Jobling
Mr Jones
Miss Kirkby
Mr Moppett
Mr Mutch
Mr Pickering
Mr Ryan
Mr Samios
Mrs Sham-Ho
Mr Webster
Tellers,
Mrs Forsythe
Dr Pezzutti
Pairs
Mr Enderbury
Mr Obeid
Mr O'Grady
Mr Macdonald
Mr Bull
Mrs Evans
Mr Gay
Mr Smith
Page 7036
Question so resolved in the negative.
Amendment of the Hon. R. D. Dyer negatived.
Amendment of the Hon. E. P. Pickering agreed to.
Motion as amended agreed to.
Message forwarded to the Legislative Assembly advising it of the resolution.
ADJOURNMENT
The Hon. E. P. PICKERING (Minister for Justice, Minister for Emergency Services, Minister Assisting the Premier, and Vice-President of the Executive Council) [7.38]: I move:
That this House do now adjourn.
KINSEY, SEX AND FRAUD
Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE [7.38]: I wish to share with the House some very important details concerning the research conducted by Dr Alfred Kinsey during the 1940s. I refer to a book entitled Kinsey, Sex and Fraud by Reisman and Eichel, edited by Court and Muir, Huntingdon House, 1990. In 1990 the book Kinsey, Sex and Fraud - The Indoctrination of a People, by Dr Judith A. Reisman and Edward W. Eichell, edited by Dr John Court and Dr J. Gordon Muir, appeared in the United States. Dr Court is a professor of psychology with international clinical experience in sexual maladjustment. For many years he held academic posts at the Flinders University of South Australia before moving with his wife to the United States where he now works as director of the Psychological Center, Fuller Theological Seminary, Pasadena, California. These scholars have brought together criticisms by many serious academics of the work of Dr Alfred C. Kinsey, the pioneer of research into human sexuality in the 1940s and a major promoter of what we now call the sexual revolution in western nations. These critics claim that Kinsey's worldwide reputation as an objective, reliable scientist is undeserved because much of his famous research is distorted and unreliable - in fact, a fraud. Although Alfred Kinsey died in 1956, his Kinsey Institute for Sex Research - which today has the expanded name of the Kinsey Institute for Research in Sex, Gender, and Reproduction - has continued to promote the new psychological disciplines of sexology and sex therapy. Many researchers and teachers rely on Kinsey's authority on sexual matters. Not all of the charges are new, but the value of this latest study is that it focuses attention on the way Kinsey's reputation has been uncritically defended by a generation of scholars determined to claim scientific backing for radical changes in public attitudes to normal sexual behaviour. Kinsey, Sex and Fraud contains a wealth of detail beyond the scope of my brief remarks here tonight. I urge all honourable members to read the book.
Two leading investigators of Kinsey research are convinced that, based on the acid test for academic fraud, which is "intendion to deceive", "Kinsey's work is incriminated . . . beyond question". What follows is a summary of the case against Kinsey and his co-workers because of the harm done by the wide acceptance of their work. In fact, their work has become the basis for many sex education programs, personal development programs and even AIDS programs in recent times. During the 1940s, Alfred Kinsey did original research into human sexual behaviour, culminating in
Page 7037
the publication of "Sexual Behaviour in the Human Male" in 1948. This was followed in 1953 by a similar work on the female. The Kinsey reports were widely publicised as daring, large scale surveys of the actual behaviour of Americans. Results were far more liberal than had been anticipated by the conservative United States public, which regarded Kinsey's revelations as overturning research and publishing taboos on this subject. The press and scholars took the research findings very seriously. For example, Kinsey claimed that up to 10 per cent of males were exclusively homosexual for three or more years in their lives. This claim led many to conclude that the accepted view of heterosexuality as being normal for humans was wrong. The figure is not 10 per cent; it is closer to 1 per cent. Kinsey apparently set out to obtain a high proportion of sexually promiscuous people for part of his so-called research, which involved the histories of several hundred male prostitutes. It is hardly surprising that Kinsey produced sensational, unexpected estimates of sexual conduct from such a process, for example, the statistic of 10 per cent relating to male homosexuality.
What is more amazing is that such results are still sourced to Kinsey and are cited regularly as accurate today despite the absence of confirmatory studies and the longstanding evidence of studies critical of Kinsey's methods. The explanation is that the pro-promiscuity climate in academia has failed to focus on Kinsey's "statistical hokum" for ideological reasons. Kinsey and his institute have become the myth makers for the permissive age. It is important to see how modern "Kinseyites" have seen the need to modify Kinsey's figures while still protecting his reputation. A 1989 study reduced the figure for "prevalence of same-gender sexual contact ever" from Kinsey's 37 per cent down to 20.3 per cent. This figure is further reduced by the following qualifications: "6.7 per cent had such contact after age 19; and between 1.6 and 2 per cent had such contact within the previous year". [Time expired.]
LIVERPOOL CITY COUNCIL GARBAGE CONTRACT
The Hon. J. F. RYAN [7.43]: On 5th November, 1991, the Liverpool City Council invited tenders for garbage and effluent removal and the recycling service to operate in that area. The tender specification required that there be garbage removal from approximately 31,000 residences and an effluent removal service from approximately 150 premises per week. At a special meeting held on Monday, 30th March, 1992, the council considered seven tenders from five different companies. There were considerable differences in the tender prices, and the council eventually adopted the recommendation made by the town clerk and accepted a seven-year tender from Rethmann Australia at a total cost of $12.9 million over seven years. It was the cheapest tender on the council paper. There was however a tender from Solo Waste which was not even included on the council papers. Another tender submitted by Solo was on the council papers but the Solo tender previously mentioned was different in a very important respect. The Solo tender offered the same service to the ratepayers of Liverpool city that the successful Rethmann tender offered but at the lower cost of $11.8 million. This represents a potential saving to the ratepayers of Liverpool of $1,128,400. Why were the aldermen of Liverpool council not made aware of this cheaper tender? I am convinced that it was because the tender did not accept the darg or productivity limit which is dictated by the Transport Workers Union, the union which covers garbage truck drivers. I am advised that even though the one-man operated trucks commonly used to collect 240 litre garbage bins in Liverpool can service 840 homes in a working day, the TWU insists that contractors limit their drivers to servicing only 760 homes. Naturally, this is more expensive.
Page 7038
The Solo company which had submitted the lowest tender to the Liverpool council had reached an agreement with its staff whereby its workers received higher pay to collect 840 bins a day. But the blockheads at the TWU and the Labor mayor and aldermen at Liverpool City Council have said no, so the ratepayers of Liverpool will pay a great deal more for their garbage service. This situation is made worse by the fact that council staff were obviously instructed by the Labor mayor, Mark Latham, not to include any tender in the reports to the council which did not follow the dictates of the TWU concerning worker productivity rates. So the issue was never debated by the council. I am not speaking up for any particular contractor. It is entirely up to Liverpool City Council as to whether it chooses the cheapest or most expensive tender. But at least the aldermen were entitled to know that the report they received from council staff was effected by the peculiar ideologically driven and wasteful industrial relations policy of the Labor Party, whereby unions such as the TWU are allowed to dictate the going productivity rate of all workers. The ratepayers of Liverpool are entitled to know that this decision will cost them well in excess of a million dollars over the next seven years. This is also an excellent example of what might have happened had unions been allowed a greater say in productivity agreements under the Government's new industrial relations legislation. If we add this waste to the money wasted by the Liverpool council in its futile legal challenge against the Roads and Traffic Authority over the M5 expressway, there has been a total waste of almost $2 million of ratepayers' money. The ratepayers of the city of Liverpool must be asking themselves whether they can afford any more waste by this council.
FACT TREE YOUTH SERVICE
The Hon. R. D. DYER [7.47]: I wish to raise a matter relating to the Fact Tree Youth Service of Elizabeth Street, Waterloo, and in particular to the purchase by it of a property at Blaxland's Arm, Laguna, near Wollombi in the lower Hunter Valley, for the purpose of establishing a youth farm. The cost of the purchase of this property was approximately $75,000. As the Fact Tree Youth Service was short of funds Mr Andrew Harper, then a senior adviser to the former Minister for Health and Community Services, The Hon. John Hannaford, MLC, and now an adviser to the present Minister for Community Services, advanced by way of loan the sum of $15,000 to assist the completion of the purchase, which was settled on 18th March, 1992. This loan amount of $15,000 was secured by a registered first mortgage over the property in favour of Mr Harper. I am advised that the loan was repaid in May 1992 by the making of one payment of $10,000 and another payment of $5,000. I have seen a copy of a letter dated 21st May, 1992, from Mr Harper to Mr R. Oerlemans, manager of the Fact Tree Youth Service, which among other things states, "I would appreciate my efforts to assist your service being kept confidential, subject to any legal requirements."
The Mayor of South Sydney City Council, Alderman Vic Smith, was supportive of the farm proposal but I am advised that the former coordinator of the Fact Tree Youth Service, Mr Stephen Coles, spread rumours concerning various members of the management committee of the service, which numbered seven persons in all. This resulted in Alderman Smith becoming antagonistic to the management committee, and within days of becoming Minister for Community Services the Hon. Jim Longley instructed senior officers of his department to advise the management committee that they were considered by the department to be incohesive. Seven days' notice of intention to transfer the auspice of the service to South Sydney Council was given by the department. The auspice was in fact transferred to the council and the management committee was disbanded. I am advised that the dismissal occurred following a meeting between Mr Coles, Mr Harper, Alderman Smith and various other persons.
Page 7039
I accept that Mr Harper in lending money to the Fact Tree Youth Service might have had as his motive a desire to assist the service to complete the purchase and to continue its worthwhile activities helping young people. However, the events I have described indicate also that Mr Harper involved himself in a conflict of interest regarding his desire to assist the centre on the one hand and his duty to appropriately advise his Minister regarding the management committee of the centre. I ask the Minister for Community Services to indicate whether Mr Harper disclosed his interest either to the Premier or to the present or former Minister for Community Services and whether the Minister believes that Mr Harper acted appropriately when he both assisted the service financially and participated in meetings dealing with the future of its management committee. On the face of the matter it appears that Andrew Harper, to the extent that he apparently secretly provided a loan and then was a party to the actions taken against the management committee, can hardly be said to have been objective in the advice given to the Minister concerning the dismissal of the management committee and the transfer of the auspice to South Sydney Council.
Motion agreed to.
House adjourned at 7.51 p.m. until Tuesday, 27th October, 1992, at 2.30 p.m.
______
QUESTIONS UPON NOTICE
The following questions upon notice and answers were circulated in Questions and Answers:
HILTON HOTEL BOMBING INQUIRY
Ms Kirkby asked the Minister for Police and Emergency Services and Vice-President of the Executive Council -
(1) Following the quashing of the conviction of Mr Timothy Anderson for the Hilton bombing, will the Minister now urge the New South Wales Government to open a comprehensive inquiry into the Hilton bombing?
(2) Will the Federal Government fully co-operate with any inquiry opened by the New South Wales Government into the Hilton bombing?
(3) Why has the Government never opened a public inquiry to determine:
(a) why the responsible Federal agencies failed to:
(i) prevent the Hilton bombing; and
(ii) find the perpetrators?
(b) the nature and extent of those agencies involvement in any investigations concerning Mr Anderson?
(4) Will the Government open a full and open inquiry into the Hilton bombing and all matters concerning it connected with the Commonwealth and its agencies.
(5) What were the roles of:
(a) the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation (ASIO);
(b) ASIO's auxiliary services, including the VIP Protection Unit;
(c) the Australian Federal Police (AFP);
(d) the Australian Defence Force (ADF);
(e) the New South Wales Police; and
(f) the Special Branch of the New South Wales Police in ensuring the security of the Commonwealth Heads of Government Regional Meeting (CHOGRM) at the Sydney Hilton in 1978?
Page 7040
(6) In what manner were the security operations of the Federal and New South Wales agencies and personnel referred to in part (5) co-ordinated?
(7) Was an officer placed in charge of security operations overall; if so, what was the officer's name?
(8) If direction for security operations was given jointly by Federal and State officers, what were:
(a) the names of the officers; and
(b) the respective responsibilities of those officers?
(9) What were the responsibilities of:
(a) Mr Don Marshall;
(b) Superintendent Reginald Douglas; and
(c) Inspector Perrin?
(10) Was Mr Marshall:
(a) in charge of ASIO's VIP Protection Unit at the time of the Hilton bombing;
(b) dismissed after the explosion;
(c) reinstated soon after; and
(d) later promoted to the position of Deputy Director of ASIO?
(11) If so, why was he dismissed, re-instated and promoted?
(12) Is it a fact that neither Mr Marshall nor Superintendent Douglas gave evidence before:
(a) the 1982 coronial inquiry in Sydney into the Hilton bombing; or
(b) any of the subsequent court proceedings concerned with the event?
(13) Why did ASIO's VIP Protection Unit, the AFP, the ADF, and the overseas-trained anti-terrorist personnel of the New South Wales Police fail to detect the bomb?
(14) Were sniffer dogs used and, if not, why not?
(15) Was the bin in which the bomb had been placed searched in accordance with established security procedures and, if not, why not?
(16) Did certain police officers over a period of three days direct that the garbage bin not be emptied?
(17) If so:
(a) who gave the direction; and
(b) why?
(18) Were any of the security personnel who were rostered for duty at the Hilton about the time of the explosion not on duty as rostered?
(19) If not:
(a) who were they; and
(b) why were they not present?
(20) What are the names of the security personnel who were on duty at or near the Hilton:
(a) before;
(b) during; and
(c) after the explosion?
(21) Did ASIO personnel work with New South Wales Special Branch personnel on security for the CHOGRM conference and, if so, what was the nature of that involvement?
(22) Was the Special Air Services involved with the security operation:
(a) before;
(b) during; or
(c) after the explosion; and, if so, what was the nature of that involvement?
(23) Were security forces carrying out surveillance in the vicinity of the Hilton from a red or orange Torana sedan with registration number HXS 496 immediately before the explosion?
Page 7041
(24) If so:
(a) who were the personnel;
(b) did they give evidence at the 1982 coronial inquiry or any subsequent court hearing concerning the event and, if not, why not; and
(c) will he endeavour to make them available for any future inquiry?
(25) Has the Minister's attention been drawn to statements made to persons including Mr Terry Griffiths, a former New South Wales Police Officer injured in the explosion, by Mr Peter Monaghan (former private secretary to former Senator Mason) to the effect that the ASIO personnel were involved in the Hilton bombing?
(26) If so, have the statements been investigated and, if so:
(a) when;
(b) by whom;
(c) with what result; and
(d) what action was taken?
(27) Were more than 20 ASIO personnel transferred within Australia and abroad after the Hilton bombing and, if so:
(a) how many;
(b) what are their names;
(c) where were they transferred; and
(d) why?
(28) Was ASIO's VIP Protection Unit required to account for its failure to locate the bomb and to prevent its detonation and, if so:
(a) what account did it give; and
(b) what action was taken in response?
(29) Did ASIO at any time assist in the investigations, arrest or convictions of Mr Anderson?
(30) If so, what assistance did they provide, when was it provided and to whom was it provided?
(31) Did ASIO provide marijuana to members of the Ananda Marga in return for information?
(32) Was Mr Richard Seary an agent or informant of ASIO?
(33) Was ASIO involved with the late Mr John Melton, a student at the University of New South Wales?
(34) Did ASIO have any knowledge of or connection with:
(a) explosives found in a locker held in the surname of Melton at the University of New South Wales;
(b) the circumstances in which those explosives and a section of a newspaper found with them were destroyed?
(35) Was Mr Melton ever employed as an agent or informant, or was he involved with, the Special Branch or any other branch of the New South Wales Police?
(36) Are ASIO personnel trained in the use of explosives?
(37) Have ASIO personnel trained either narcotics agents or personnel of other agencies in the use of explosives?
(38) Has Mr Griffiths ever been investigated or placed under surveillance by ASIO and, if so, when and why?
(39) Has ASIO ever tapped Mr Griffiths' telephone and, if so, when and why?
(40) Did ASIO remove Mr Griffiths' file from his doctor's premises in Macquarie Street, Sydney, in 1981?
Answer -
(1) No.
(2) This question should be directed to the Commonwealth Government.
Page 7042
(3) (a-b) It should be obvious that the activities of Commonwealth officers and agencies is essentially a matter for the Commonwealth. In any case, as stated by the Attorney General on 22 October 1991 in another place, if the Government were to establish a Royal Commission into the Hilton bombing incident, there would be considerable doubt about whether a New South Wales Royal Commissioner should or could issue a summons to the Commonwealth or to an officer of the Commonwealth. Accordingly, an inquiry by New South Wales alone would be futile.
The Attorney General has written to the Commonwealth Attorney General on a number of occasions proposing a joint Commonwealth-New South Wales inquiry into the matter but, to date, the Commonwealth has not responded favourably to the proposal.
(4) No. See answer to part (3).
(5) (a-d) These questions should be directed to the Commonwealth Government.
(e) To control entrances and exits of the Hilton Hotel and the Berida Manor. To assist with transport and to control those areas of the Hotel not designated the responsibility of the Commonwealth Police.
(5) (f) To escort visiting dignitaries and provide security at official functions.
(6) A senior officer of the Protective Services Co-ordination Centre was appointed as Security Co-ordinator for the Commonwealth Heads of Government Regional Meeting (CHOGRM) conference.
(7) No. Security was a combined operation.
(8) (a-b) Responsibility for protective security was shared between the Commonwealth authorities and New South Wales police.
Chief Superintendent Bruce was in charge of the Commonwealth police and Chief Superintendent Douglas was in charge of the New South Wales Police.
(9) (a) Mr Marshall is an employee of the Commonwealth Government and the question should be addressed to that Government.
(b) Mr Douglas was the senior New South Wales Police officer involved with security, crowd control and any other matter concerning New South Wales police.
(c) Mr Perrin was the officer who commanded the Special Branch personnel. He was answerable to Mr Douglas.
(10) (a-d) As Mr Marshall is an employee of the Federal Government, this question should be addressed to that authority.
(11) This question should be directed to the Commonwealth Government.
(12) (a) Yes.
(b) I am advised that neither Mr Marshall or Superintendent Doublas gave evidence at subsequent court proceedings.
(13) The part of the question which relates to Federal authorities should be addressed to those authorities. In 1978 there were no overseas trained anti-terrorist personnel who were members of the New South Wales Police.
(14) At the time, there were no sniffer dogs under the control of the New South Wales authorities. Sniffer dogs may have been available to the Federal authorities and questions concerning their non use should be addressed to those authorities.
(15) I am advised that there were no established security procedures, which existed in 1978, that required garbage bins in the public street to be searched. If they were considered a security risk they should have been removed.
(16) No. However, on two occasions, due to traffic conditions, a garbage truck on one occasion and a utility on another occasion were waved past by a constable on duty. There is evidence that to empty the bin at those particular times would have caused considerable disruption to traffic in the vicinity of the hotel. These vehicles were not prevented from returning at a later time. However, they elected not to do so.
(17) (a-b) No such directions were given.
(18) I am advised that there was no person rostered for duty who was not on duty.
Page 7043
(19) (a-b) I am advised that there was no rostered personnel who were not on duty.
(20) (a-c) The rosters of the New South Wales police who were on duty at those times no longer exist. However, running sheet entries, which identify certain personnel are currently at the Independent Commission Against Corruption.
(21) No.
(22) (a-b) No.
(c) This question should be directed to the Commonwealth Government.
(23) No.
(24) (a-c) Not applicable.
(25) Yes.
(26) Yes.
(a) At the 1982 Inquest. Mr Monaghan was also interviewed in January 1990.
(b) The Coroner, Mr Walsh and members of the Regional Crime Squad, South.
(c) Mr Monaghan's and Mr Griffiths' versions differed. After speaking with Mr Monaghan, further action was considered unnecessary.
(d) The matter was filed.
(27) (a-d) This question should be directed to the Commonwealth Government.
(28) (a-b) This question should be directed to the Commonwealth Government.
(29-33) These questions should be directed to the Commonwealth Government.
(34) (a-b) This question should be directed to the Commonwealth Government.
(35) No.
(36-40) These questions should be directed to the Commonwealth Government.
BUILDING CONTRACTS
Ms Kirkby asked the Minister for Police and Emergency Services and Vice-President of the Executive Council representing the Attorney General, Minister for Consumer Affairs and Minister for Arts -
(1) Do the building contracts of the Master Builders' Association, Housing Industry Association and the Institute of Architects breach the Trade Practices Act or Fair Trading Act?
(2) Is there a possible conflict of interest if an arbitrator who is a member of the Master Builders' Association, Housing Industry Association or Institute of Architects is appointed to arbitrate an Association or Institute contract?
(3) Has this ever occurred?
(4) Do lawyers employed by building associations or the Institute of Architects give advice to arbitrators hearing cases involving contracts of the Associations or Institute?
(5) If so, is there a conflict of interest?
(6) What relationship, if any, is there between the Associations, the Institute and the Building Services Corporation in their mechanisms for settling building disputes?
(7) What implications, if any, did the case of Scott v Avery have for contracts?
(8) What is the process of building arbitration with regard to insurance contractual disputes?
(9) Are arbitrators selected by builders without consultation with owners?
(10) What criteria must be satisfied before a person may be appointed as an arbitrator?
(11) Under the Arbitration Act, what are the grounds for appeal to a court for annulment of an award?
(12) Are non-court functionaries given the task of registering and filing awards?
(13) If so, why?
(14) Are building associations permitted to sell their domestic dwelling contracts to non-member builders?
(15) If disputes arise, do building associations appoint arbitrators under the terms of the contract?
Page 7044
Answer -
(1) The Trade Practices Act and the Fair Trading Act regulate activity rather than contracts.
(2) This would depend on all the circumstances of the individual arbitration.
(3) I understand that some arbitrators of building disputes are appointed by the various building associations and that the arbitrator so appointed may be a practising or retired builder.
(4) I have no direct knowledge of this. However, following this question being asked my predecessor received an unsolicited note purportedly from the Building Arbitration Reform Group suggesting that this had occurred. I have referred that note to the Minister for Housing. It is a matter for the parties to an arbitration to consider whether there has been any misconduct on the part of an arbitrator and the Commercial Arbitration Act provides for awards to be set aside in appropriate circumstances. Clearly, the question of whether the seeking of legal advice in the manner outlined constitutes misconduct depends on the circumstances of each particular case.
(5) I cannot comment on this as I am unaware of the circumstances to which the Honourable Member is referring.
(6) The Building Services Commission is the responsibility of the Honourable R J Webster, MLC, Minister for Planning and Minister for Housing.
(7) It was held by the House of Lords in the case of Scott v Avery that parties may make the award of an arbitrator on a question of law a condition precedent to the institution of proceedings before a court.
However, section 55 of the Commercial Arbitration Act makes special provision in relation to Scott v Avery clauses to the general effect that such clauses shall not operate to prevent legal proceedings being brought by the parties to a contract.
(8) The process of building arbitration generally is the process determined by the arbitrator and the parties to the dispute.
(9) I am not aware that builders, as parties to disputes, select arbitrators.
(10) Any criteria for appointment as an arbitrator are matters determined by the parties in the contract or by the appointing authority named in the contract.
(11) I assume the Honourable Member is referring to the Commercial Arbitration Act, 1984. I refer the Honourable Member to Part V of the Commercial Arbitration Act.
(12) I do not understand what is meant by "Non-Court functionaries" nor who might allocate the task referred to. However, I can advise that under section 33 of the Commercial Arbitration Act, an award made under an arbitration agreement may, with the leave of the Court, be enforced in the same manner as a judgement of the Supreme Court and parties may, with the Court's leave, have the judgement entered in terms of the award.
(13) See (12).
(14) I am not aware of this matter nor any regulation relevant to it.
(15) See (3).
EVANS RIVER FORESHORE DEVELOPMENT
Mr O'Grady asked the Minister for Planning and Minister for Energy representing the Minister for Local Government, and Minister for Co-operatives -
Further to an answer by the Minister on 13 November 1991 to a question by me concerning consent from the Department not being required for the proposed excavation on wetland 146:
(1) Is work being carried out to excavate the Evans Foreshore?
(2) Has spoil been stockpiled on the wetland and on the proposed sub-division?
Page 7045
(3) Have existing tracks on the wetland been extensively levelled and filled?
(4) Has this work been carried out before the determination of the court proceedings between the Lismore Greens, the Richmond River Shire Council and the developer?
(5) Is the Richmond River Council the consent authority?
(6) If so, has it taken any action to rectify this matter?
(7) If not, why not?
Answer -
This is a matter which falls within my administration, not that of my colleague, the Hon. G. Peacocke, MP.
(1) I am advised by the Department of Planning that excavation work has been carried out in relation to the creation of an artificial wetland on the Evans River foreshore pursuant to a development consent. However, work ceased shortly after action commenced on the matter in the Land and Environment Court.
(2) I am further advised that some spoil has been stockpiled on the proposed sub-division site and in proximity to the artificial wetland under construction.
(3) Existing tracks have been used for access to excavation work for the artificial wetland. There has been some levelling and filling of the tracks which are almost entirely outside areas of wetland vegetation.
(4) Work has been carried out on the site, however, work ceased shortly after Court action commenced. I am advised that the developer does not propose to undertake further work until the outcome of the Court case is known.
(5) Yes, Richmond River Shire Council is the consent authority.
(6-7) I am not aware of any matters which the Council needs to rectify at this stage. It would be inappropriate for the Council to pre-empt the decision of the Court.
"COP IT SWEET" OFFENSIVE LANGUAGE
Mr O'Grady asked the Minister for Police and Emergency Services and Vice-President of the Executive Council -
(1) Was the man seen being arrested for swearing in the program "Cop It Sweet" on the ABC charged for offensive language under the Summary Offences Act?
(2) Given that the police were also swearing, will the charges against him be dropped?
(3) If not, why not?
(4) Were any police who were seen swearing on the program charged under the Summary Offences Act?
(5) If not, why not?
Answer -
(1) Yes.
(2) No.
(3) The information against the offender was dismissed at Redfern Local Court on 7 November 1991.
(4) No.
(5) The provisions of the Justices Act do not allow prosecutions beyond six months from the time of the incident.
HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION NATIONAL INQUIRY INTO RACIST VIOLENCE
Mr O'Grady asked the Minister for Police and Emergency Services and Vice-President of the Executive Council -
Page 7046
(1) Did the Human Rights Commission's National Inquiry into Racist Violence report that 85 per cent of Aboriginal juveniles in custody said they had been assaulted by police?
(2) If so, what action has been taken by the Police Service?
(3) Was the author of the report approached to give information on the juveniles' allegations?
(4) Have any charges been laid against police for assaulting Aboriginal juveniles?
Answer -
(1) The Human Rights Commission's National Inquiry into Racist Violence (HRCNIRV) reported that 85% of the 171 Aboriginal and Islander juveniles interviewed in Queensland, New South Wales and Western Australia had been assaulted by police. This is broken into 82% in New South Wales, 90% in Queensland and 94% in Western Australia. These reports were not substantiated.
(2) The New South Wales Police Service convened a Working Party in May 1991, following the tabling of the report on 2 May 1991 in Federal Parliament. A departmental response was prepared and endorsed by the Working Party. The response was published in the Police Service Weekly on 6 May 1991. The primary response to the report has been the development of the Community Relations Strategy (or CRS Project).
(3) The authors of the report, Chris Cuneen and Chris Sidoti provided input to the Working Party.
(4) Statistics maintained in the Police Service in relation to charges against police are not broken down into any racial grouping. The Commissioner of Police, Mr A R Lauer, has advised, however, that a project team is presently examining the computer system and it may be possible to obtain this type of information in the future.
DAVID GUNDY POLICE DEPARTMENTAL CHARGES
Mr O'Grady asked the Minister for Police and Emergency Services and Vice-President of the Executive Council -
(1) Was the Crown Solicitor's office asked to provide advice on the laying of Departmental charges against police involved in the raid on David Gundy's home?
(2) If so, when was this requested?
(3) Has the Police Commissioner received advice of counsel on the laying of Departmental charges against certain police officers involved?
(4) When was this advice received by the Police Commissioner?
(5) Has the Police Commissioner failed to act on the advice of counsel?
(6) Will Departmental charges be laid against police involved in the raid on David Gundy's home?
(7) If not, why not?
(8) If so, when will the charges be laid?
Answer -
(1) Yes.
(2) Initially on 9 April 1991.
(3) Yes.
(4) The initial advice was received on 13 December 1991.
(5-8) Supplementary advice was sought from the Crown Solicitor on 19 December 1991 and 25 June 1992.
Consideration is still being given to the most recent advice which was received on 21 July 1992.
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GOONELLABAH TAFE LAND
Mr Jones asked the Minister for Police and Emergency Services and Vice-President of the Executive Council representing the Minister for Industrial Relations and Minister for Further Education, Training and Employment -
(1) Was a 10.56 ha block of land owned by the Department of Technical and Further Education At Goonellabah sold for $250,000 on 9 December 1991?
(2) What is 10 ha of land comparable to the TAFE site worth elsewhere in the Shire at late 1991 prices?
(3) Was reasonable time provided for public input so as to ensure the best possible use for the site?
(4) Does part of the site comprise koala habitat?
(5) Did a detailed survey of local residents indicate that the majority of residents in the area of the TAFE land wanted a botanic gardens or park?
(6) What position did the Member for Lismore, Mr Bill Rixon, take in regard to the sale of the land?
(7) What was the original purchase price of the TAFE site?
Answer -
(1) Approximately half of the former TAFE site at Goonellabah was rezoned by the local Council as open space and the total site of 10.56 ha. was sold as one parcel for $250,000. The site was sold on 5 December 1991.
(2) Auctions represent the best current market price for the land of the configuration, location, zoning and services of the Goonellabah site. Hence, the site at Goonellabah was auctioned.
(3) The land was declared surplus by the Minister on 13 January 1990 after the Government had commissioned a report on TAFE developments on the North Coast. The report by consultant Ian Predl and Associates recommended development of the TAFE Commission's 47 ha. site at Wollongbar and the disposal of the Goonellabah site. Lismore Council was fully informed of this decision and application was made to Council by Property Services Group for the rezoning of the site on 26 January 1990.
The TAFE Commission followed Government procedures and the disposal of the property was referred to the Property services Group. Almost two years passed between Council being notified of the intent to dispose of the property and the auction on 23 November 1991. This time represents ample opportunity for public comment.
(4) The TAFE Commission is unaware of the presence of a koala habitat on the site.
(5) The TAFE Commission understands that the Goonellabah Progress Association attempted to have the land set aside as a passive park. However, it is not aware of the findings of a detailed survey of local residents indicating the land was wanted for botanic gardens or park.
(6) It is suggested that this matter be raised directly with Mr Rixon's office.
(7) The site was originally purchased in December 1984 for a sum of $400,000 and this value was verified by the Valuer-General's Department.
The rezoning of approximately half of the site for open space resulted in a marked reduction in the potential sale price.
NORTH COAST RIVERS
Mr Jones asked the Minister for School Education and Youth Affairs representing the Minister for Natural Resources -
Page 7048
(1) Are wetland drainage and flood mitigation works known to be causal agents in relation to fish kills and loss of aquatic productivity in any North Coast river system?
(2) If so, what action is being taken to restore drained wetlands and regulate flood mitigation activities?
Answer -
(1) Flood mitigation works were carried out during the early 1960's to reduce the impact of floods which had caused loss of property and of life around many of the NSW coastal rivers on the North Coast. The general aim of the flood mitigation program of the 1960's was to restrict the extent of flooding around urban and agricultural lands by directing and controlling flood waters and assisting the drainage of waters off low-lying land. Three types of control mechanisms were used:
-levy banks were constructed;
-flood gates were installed on many creeks to control water flow, and
-drainage channels were dug in areas of low-lying land.
Mr Jones refers to the term aquatic productivity which is open to many different interpretations ranging from plant growth to fish production. However, NSW Fisheries has undertaken studies on the effect of flood mitigation on fish. Unfortunately, while some flood mitigation works appear beneficial to agriculture, we now have data to show there has been a detrimental effect on fish in some areas by reducing available habitat and in some localities causing fish kills, however, these effects are minimal.
For example, flood gates can obstruct fish passage into the natural tributaries of these rivers. Blocking off these creeks has also changed the nature of the fringing plant communities and in some small areas caused loss of mangroves.
Another impact of flood mitigation can be drainage works. In some areas which have been drained, acid soils have been exposed and have led to localised problems with water quality, particularly during wet conditions.
A number of fish kills in the Tweed and Macleay rivers can be directly attributed to increased acidity in run-off waters due to the drainage of catchments with these particular soil types. However, this is a phenomena that has been documented since European settlement after dry periods followed by flushing rains.
(2) A number of actions are underway to investigate the possible restoration of some important wetlands.
Programs are currently in place in the Hunter and Macleay rivers to identify areas that could be restored and to investigate the means of restoration as well as the impact this might have on fisheries. These programs are being undertaken by NSW Fisheries under the auspices of the Hunter Valley Catchment Management Trust and on the Macleay in conjunction with the Departments of Conservation and Land Management and Public Works.
In some regions, NSW Farmers are also attempting to improve the management of flood mitigation and drainage areas through more active management of farm drains, so that both the farms and the estuary can benefit. This is being investigated in the Tweed River system at present.
Another initiative being advanced is a new state wetlands policy which will address management of wetlands and wetland rehabilitation.
GRAFTON TAFE TEACHERS
Mr Jones asked the Minister for School Education and Youth Affairs -
(1) Have any teachers been sacked from Grafton TAFE college this year?
(2) If so, are there plans to sack any more teachers?
Page 7049
(3) Which courses have been affected by any sackings?
(4) Which other TAFE colleges are to be, or have been, affected by staff cuts this year?
(5) How many people have been, or will be, sacked from TAFE colleges?
(6) Have, or will, literacy and numeracy courses be affected?
(7) Do regional TAFE or TAFE colleges in high unemployment areas attract special considerations?
(8) If so, what?
(9) If not, why not?
Answer -
(1) No full-time teachers have been sacked from Grafton TAFE College.
(2) There are no plans to sack any full-time teachers from Grafton TAFE College but as a result of re-allocation of course priorities, some part-time teachers who were employed in 1991 may not be employed in 1992.
(3) As there have been no sackings no courses have been affected.
(4) No TAFE colleges have been subject to staff cuts but some staff have been offered and have voluntarily accepted redundancy packages as part of the restructuring of the organisation.
(5) See response to Q4. There are currently no plans to sack any staff from the North Coast institute of TAFE.
(6) Literacy and numeracy provision in the North Coast Institute of TAFE is currently being reviewed to ensure that the most effective use is being made of funding for these programs. There are currently no plans to reduce the overall level of provision in these areas.
(7) TAFE Colleges in areas of high unemployment attract additional funds for the provision of Labour Market Training Programs of two main types.
(8) (a) GET SKILLED, the TAFE component of the New South Wales Government Start to Life Strategy which in 1991 provided 63 vocational education and training courses for 691 unemployed 15-24 year olds in North Coast colleges.
(b) JOBTRAIN, funded by the Commonwealth Government provided 79 education and training courses for 823 adults in North Coast colleges in 1991.
For both programs the allocation of funds is based on the number of people registered as unemployed at local CES offices.
The type of course provided takes local labour market considerations into account.
Accredited TAFE material is used to maximise students' opportunities to articulate into further vocational education. Additional training is provided in job seeking skills and courses include work experience in local industries.
(9) Not applicable.
NUFARM CHEMICALS
Mr Jones asked the Minister for Planning and Minister for Energy representing the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs -
(1) Was a meeting at Condong Bowling Club conducted by Nufarm Chemicals?
(2) Was the meeting addressed by Dr G. Carlo?
(3) What was the purpose of this meeting?
(4) Did Dr Carlo state that: "there is no need to wear a respirator when using 2,4,D?
(5) Did he further state that: "Drinking a glass or two of 2,4,D would not have too much effect on the health of the person drinking it"?
(6) Did Dr Carlo also state that "He and science did not know all the effects of 2,4,D"?
(7) Was the audience made up mainly of farm produce suppliers, weed sprayers, farmers and others who use agricultural chemicals?
Page 7050
(8) Did Dr Carlo make statements and/or provide advice contrary to law as defined in the Pesticides Act 1978?
(9) Did Dr Carlo make statements and/or provide advice contrary to Department of Agriculture recommendations for the use, handling and application of agricultural chemicals?
(10) If so, what action will be taken
Answer -
No officer of my Department represented me or the Department at this meeting.
TOURISM COMMISSION STAFF REDUCTION
Mr Vaughan asked the Minister for School Education and Youth Affairs representing the Minister for State Development and Minister for Tourism -
(1) Has the New South Wales Tourism Commission reduced its staff by 30% to 140 in the last year?
(2) If so, exactly when did this reduction occur?
(3) What positions within the Commission were abolished?
(4) From where within the Commission were these positions abolished?
Answer -
(1) No. The New South Wales Tourism Commission reduced its staff by 15% from 178 to 152 during the past year.
(2) The reduction was achieved between August 1991 and February 1992 through attrition, retraining and redeployment and voluntary redundancy.
(3&4)
Assistant Manager, Policy and Research Planning & Development/Policy & Research
Manager Planning (2) Planning & Development/Policy & Research
Senior Policy Officer Planning & Development/Policy & Research
Manager Development Planning & Development/Policy & Research
Marketing Analysis Coordinator Planning & Development/Policy & Research
Senior Development Officer Planning & Development/Policy & Research
Policy and Research Officer Planning & Development/Policy & Research
Senior Planning Officer Planning & Development/Policy & Research
International Manager Marketing
Assistant to Secretary Executive
Secretariat Officer Executive
Clerical Officer Executive
State Manager Regional Tourism Regional Tourism
Training Officer Administration
Staff and Salaries Clerk Administration
Property and Purchasing Officer Administration
Records Assistant Administration
Page 7051
Service Officer Administration
Computer Training Officer Computer Services
Clerical Officer Finance
Financial Systems Officer Finance
Public Monies Clerk Finance
Sundry Debtors Clerk Finance
Director of Finance Finance
Travel Consultant Brisbane Travel Centre
TOURISM COMMISSION POLICY ON AVIATION DEREGULATION
Mr Vaughan asked the Minister for School Education and Youth Affairs representing the Minister for State Development and Minister for Tourism -
(1) What is the policy of the New South Wales Tourism Commission and the Minister for Tourism, towards aviation deregulation in New South Wales particularly as it relates to intrastate tourism?
(2) Has the New South Wales Tourism Commission and/or the Minister for Tourism implemented programs to stimulate intrastate tourism by air travel since May 1991? If not, why not?
Answer -
(1) The New South Wales Tourism Commission and the Minister for Tourism strongly support the NSW Government's policy of progressively increasing competition on NSW intrastate aviation services to achieve advantages such as:
-lower fares and more frequent flights
-a progressive reduction of regulatory processes; and
-a greater compatibility of the air transport business environment throughout Australia.
(2) Yes. Through the NSWOW marketing campaign, the Minister and the NSW Tourism Commission target all domestic holiday travellers to and within NSW, regardless of their mode of transport.
NEW SOUTH WALES TOURISM
Mr Vaughan asked the Minister for School Education and Youth Affairs representing the Minister for State Development and Minister for Tourism -
(1) Has the New South Wales share of the tourism market dropped from 73% in 1987 to 68% in 1991?
(2) What is the estimated loss of income as result of this drop?
(3) Has the Minister, the Commission and the Government allowed this decline to continue since May 1991?
(4) If so, why?
(5) What plans does the Minister have to reverse this decline?
(6) What are the details of each of these plans?
Answer -
(1) Nights spent by international visitors in New South Wales is the important indicator of international market share. In this regard New South Wales has dramatically increased its share of international visitor nights from 31.7% in 1988 to 36% in 1991.
Page 7052
(2) An increase in visitor nights to this State represents a net increase in tourism income. This increase in visitor nights (4.3%) represents an increase of $600 million in revenue earned for New South Wales.
(3) Not applicable.
(4) Not applicable.
(5) Not applicable.
(6) Not applicable.
OZONE LAYER-RELATED SKIN CANCER
Mr Jones asked the Minister for Planning and Minister for Energy representing the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs -
(1) Is there an increase in the incidence of skin cancer on cattle on the North Coast and elsewhere in New South Wales due to the destruction of the ozone layer?
(2) Would the risk of skin cancer be greatly lessened if farmers were to provide shade trees?
(3) If so, will the Department advise farmers accordingly?
Answer -
(1) New South Wales Agriculture's general disease surveillance activity is not aware of any increase in the incidence of skin cancer in cattle on the North Coast or in other parts of New South Wales. No formal monitoring program, however, exists to record skin cancer levels.
(2) New South Wales Agriculture is promoting the use of trees on farms. Theoretically, trees could reduce skin cancer rates in cattle. Reduction in the incidence of skin cancers in cattle was not the reason for the trees on farms program. Reduction in soil erosion and the provision of wind shelter were major reasons.
(3) New South Wales Agriculture will continue to promote trees on farms. The benefit of reducing skin cancers will be acknowledged, however, the primary reasons will continue to dominate the argument.
BADGERYS CREEK AIRPORT DEVELOPMENT STRATEGY
Mr Vaughan asked the Minister for School Education and Youth Affairs representing the Minister for State Development and Minister for Tourism -
(1) Is it correct, as noted on page 19 of the Annual Report of the New South Wales Tourism Commission for 1990/91, that a strategy for the airport development at Badgery's Creek has been prepared?
(2) What are the key points of the strategy?
(3) Has the Minister acted on the key points raised in the strategy?
(4) If so, how has the Minister acted?
Answer -
(1) Yes.
(2) The key elements of the "Strategy", prepared by the Federal Airports Corporation, are the initial development of a general aviation facility, equipped with an 1800m runway capable of accommodating F27 and F50 type aircraft and, as demand warrants, the eventual construction of a domestic/limited international airport.
Page 7053
(3&4)The "Strategy was prepared by a Federal Government agency for a duly designated Federal Airport. Action on the key points of the strategy is thus the responsibility of the Federal Minister for Transport and Communications. The Minister for Tourism has urged the Federal Government to rapidly develop the first stage general aviation facility at Badgerys Creek.
SYDNEY HARBOUR PASSENGER HANDLING FACILITIES
Mr Vaughan asked the Minister for School Education and Youth Affairs representing the Minister for State Development and Minister for Tourism -
(1) Has the New South Wales Tourism Commission developed a strategy designed to overcome passenger handling facilities in Sydney Harbour as a cruise port?
(2) If not, why not?
Answer -
(1) Yes.
(2) Not applicable.
TOURISM COMMISSION POLICY ON ROADS AND TRANSPORT
Mr Vaughan asked the Minister for School Education and Youth Affairs representing the Minister for State Development and Minister for Tourism -
(1) Is it a fact that the New South Wales Tourism Commission was invited to provide an input to major road and transport policy forums in 1990/91?
(2) What was the Commission's input?
Answer -
(1) Yes.
(2) In 1990/91 the Commission supplied information and advice regarding tourism development and tourist transport movements in NSW such as preferred modes of tourist transport, numbers of tourists visiting certain areas, future visitor projections, market analysis and so on. This information and advice was provided in a variety of forums, e.g. Pacific Highway Forum, Mid North Coast Region Transport Study, KSA Third Runway Committee, Regional Airports Development Strategy, Coffs Harbour Airport Task Force.
TOURISM COMMISSION PROMOTION OF INVESTMENT OPPORTUNITIES
Mr Vaughan asked the Minister for School Education and Youth Affairs representing the Minister for State Development and Minister for Tourism -
(1) Has the New South Wales Tourism Commission stimulated awareness of private investment opportunities in tourist development in New South Wales since May 1991?
(2) If so, how?
(3) What direction has the Commission provided to investors wishing to invest in New South Wales tourism since May 1991?
(4) What private investment has occurred as a direct result of the Commission's promotion of New South Wales tourism since May 1991?
Page 7054
Answer -
(1) Yes.
(2) Since May, 1991 the NSW Tourism Commission has stimulated awareness of private investment opportunities in NSW tourist development through the preparation and/or promotion of forward planning documents such as the NSW Tourism Development Strategy, regional tourism development strategies and local tourism plans, as well as distribution of information useful to potential investors via conferences, seminars, newsletters and research and statistical publications.
(3) The Commission does not provide direction to investors: investment decisions are the responsibility of the private sector. Rather, the Commission packages and distributes information as outlined in Question (2) that assists potential investors to assess their competitive advantage and to make informed investment decisions.
(4) A total of $4.2 billion has been invested in tourism projects in NSW since May, 1991.
TOURISM COMMISSION RESPONSIBILITIES
Mr Vaughan asked the Minister for School Education and Youth Affairs representing the Minister for State Development and Minister for Tourism -
(1) Is the Planning Unit of the New South Wales Tourism Commission responsible for strategic tourism planning, identification and grading of areas with tourism potential, and preparing regional tourism development strategies?
(2) What Government Authorities does the Unit work with?
(3) How does the Unit facilitate tourism development?
(4) What strategies has the Unit prepared?
(5) What tourist developments has the Unit facilitated since May 1991?
(6) How many are employed in the Unit?
(7) What is the breakdown of Staffing levels in the Unit?
Answer -
(1) The Planning Unit no longer exists as a separate administrative entity within the NSW Tourism Commission. The new Policy and Planning Division includes amongst its responsibilities strategic tourism planning, identification and grading of areas with tourism potential, and preparing regional tourism development strategies.
(2) The Policy and Planning Division works with a broad range of Government Authorities whose activities and policies impact on the development of tourism in NSW.
(3) The Division gathers, analyses and distributes information which enables the tourism industry in NSW to assess its competitive position and develop informed investment and marketing strategies and which assists the Commission and the Government to formulate policy that encourages the growth and development of the tourism industry.
(4) The Division has prepared the following strategies:
-North Coast Region Tourism Development Strategy
-Hunter Region Tourism Development Strategy
-Illawarra Region Tourism Development Strategy
-Murray Region Tourism Development Strategy
-South Coast Region Tourism Development Strategy
-Draft Central Coast Region Tourism Development Strategy
-NSW Tourism Development Strategy: A Plan for the Future
-Cultural Tourism Strategy
(5) The Division, with other segments of the Commission, is involved as an industry facilitator on a daily basis.
Page 7055
(6) The Policy and Planning Division has a staff establishment of fifteen (15) positions.
(7) Staffing levels in the Policy and Planning Division are:
Director x 1 SES Level
Assistant Director, Policy x 1 Clerk 11
Assistant Director, Research & Evaluation X 1 Clerk 11
Project Manager, Policy x 3 Clerk 9-10
Project Manager, Market Research x 1 Clerk 9-10
Senior Librarian x 1 Librarian 1
Senior Policy & Research Consultant x 3 Clerk 7-8
Policy & Research Consultant x 2 Clerk 5-6
Clerical Support Officer x 1 Clerical Officer 5-6
Clerical Support Officer x 1 Clerical Officer 3-4
TOURISM COMMISSION REPRESENTATION
Mr Vaughan asked the Minister for School Education and Youth Affairs representing the Minister for State Development and Minister for Tourism -
(1) What representation does the New South Wales Tourism Commission have in Government Departments, Government Agencies, and Local Governments?
(2) How does the Commission advise Government Departments, Agencies and Local Government on matters relating to tourism development?
Answer -
(1) The Commission has no representation in Government Departments, Government Agencies or Local Governments.
(2) The Commission provides professional advice to Government Departments and Agencies and Local Government on matters relating to tourism arising from its expertise in areas such as research, planning, policy on the development of tourism transport and other infrastructure, education and training, product development, marketing and travel information and sales. Advice on these matters is provided through publications, videos, seminars and conferences, meetings and Commission representation on relevant committees.
TOURISM COMMISSION PREPARATION OF SITE MANAGEMENT PLANS
Mr Vaughan asked the Minister for School Education and Youth Affairs representing the Minister for State Development and Minister for Tourism -
(1) Is the Planning Unit of the NSW Tourism Commission responsible for the preparation of "site management plans" for tourism development?
(2) If so, what do these plans contain?
(3) Are these plans developed as a result of a request for the private sector or public sector, or, does the Commission provide the plans for the private sector to adopt?
Answer -
(1) No. Responsibility for preparing site management plans generally rests with the landowner. The NSW Tourism Commission has provided financial assistance and advice to local government landowners for the preparation of site management plans.
(2) Site management plans may contain detailed site specific information including site appraisals, design/construction concepts and plans.
Page 7056
(3) It is generally the decision of the landowner to prepare a site management plan. A plan may sometimes be adopted by Council in its planning controls.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT RESPONSIBILITY FOR OUTDOOR ADVERTISING
Mr Vaughan asked the Minister for Planning and Minister for Energy representing the Minister for Local Government and Minister for Co-operatives -
(1) Does Ordinance 55 of the Local Government Act mean that outdoor advertising will be deemed a town planning function and therefore require a development application?
(2) What additional cost will this mean to businesses operating in New South Wales?
(3) What financial assistance has the Department of State Development provided businesses operating in New South Wales to accommodate the change made pursuant to Ordinance 55 of the Local Government Act?
(4) What financial assistance will the Department of State Development provide businesses operating in New South Wales to accommodate the change made pursuant to Ordinance 55 of the Local Government Act?
Answer -
The Minister for Local Government and Co-operatives has advised:
(1) Outdoor advertising will not be deemed a purely town planning function. It will remain a Local Government Act function but may require planning consideration - as at present.
(2) There will be no increase in the number of applications required and it is expected that there will be no increase in costs to business. There may even be a decrease in costs if the integrated approvals system is introduced.
(3) There has been no need for additional financial assistance.
(4) Additional financial assistance is not anticipated at this time.
JOCKEY INSURANCE PREMIUM
Mr Obeid asked the Minister for Planning and Minister for Energy representing the Minister for Sport, Recreation and Racing and Minister Assisting the Premier -
(1) Does the Australian Jockey club impose a $9 insurance premium on each jockey who participates in a scheduled race meeting?
(2) To whom is this premium paid?
(3) Are race clubs reimbursed in full but the refund paid from the TAB pool?
(4) Is this a charge which reduces the dividend pool for punters, and if so, what is the estimated contribution in administration charges which is withdrawn from the prize pool?
(5) For 1989-90 and 1990-91 racing years:
(a) What was the total amount paid in premium collections?
(b) What was the total pay out in each year for claims involving:
(i) Death; and
(ii) Injury?
(c) What was the total of refunds to race clubs in each year from the TAB pool?
Answer -
(1) Yes.
(2) The premium is paid to the Australian Jockey Club as a licensed Specialist Insurer under the Workers' Compensation Act of New South Wales 1987.
Page 7057
(3) Yes, paid from the T.A.B.'s annual surplus.
(4) No.
(5) (a) Total premiums for 1989/90 and 1990/91 financial years were $651,315 and $678,933 respectively.
(b) Total payments for 1989/90 were $623,159, viz:
(ii) Injury - $618,718
Total payments for 1990/91 were $2,369,995, viz:
(i) Death - $191,557
(ii) Injury - $2,178,438
(c) Total Jockeys' Insurance refund to galloping race clubs in 1989/90 and 1990/91 was $691,686 and $704,435 respectively.
ALDERMAN JOHN PASCOE
Mr O'Grady asked the Minister for Police and Emergency Services and Vice-President of the Executive Council -
(1) Have charges been laid against Alderman John Pascoe of Blue Mountains City Council for allegedly obstructing police during an anti-fluoridation rally outside the Medlow Bath Water Board premises on April 27?
(2) Has Alderman Pascoe been charged with obstructing police?
(3) Was Alderman Pascoe charged three weeks after the event and not at the time when he was allegedly obstructing police?
(4) Were 12 other people arrested during the protest?
(5) How many people present at the protest had charges laid against them in the days/weeks after the April 27 protest?
(6) Why did it take police three weeks to charge Alderman Pascoe?
(7) Did police request television news footage of the protest? Is so, on what date/s?
(8) Which organisations/individuals supplied footage, and when?
(9) Why were police unaware that Alderman Pascoe was obstructing them during the April 27 protest, and decided this was an appropriate charge only after viewing three-week-old footage of the rally?
(10) If Alderman Pascoe is found innocent, will the Minister direct police prosecutors not to oppose an application for costs under the Justices Costs (Amendment) Bill No.2 1991 on the grounds of malicious prosecution?
Answer -
(1) Mr John Pascoe, an alderman of the Blue Mountains City Council was summonsed for 'Hinder Police' and 'Cause Obstruction' during an anti-fluoridation rally on 27 April 1992.
(2-3) The summonses for 'Hinder Police' and 'Cause Obstruction' were served 23 days after the anti-fluoridation demonstration.
(4) Yes.
(5) An Information has been laid against a male person who is currently overseas. The Information will lie in office at the Katoomba Local Court should he return to Australia.
(6) A video tape, a vital part of the prosecution's case, was not provided to police until the week ending 10 May 1992. In addition, the informant was rostered on night duty seven days and four rest days prior to the 19 May 1992, the date the summonses were served. The decision was taken not to recall the informant and incur unnecessary overtime.
Page 7058
(7) Yes. A subpoena to produce documents was also served on the Company Solicitor to Channel 10 Television and Telecasters Limited on 29 May 1992 to produce a further edited tape of the incident.
(8) Channel 10 Television provided both tapes as outlined in parts (6) & (7).
(9) Police were aware Mr Pascoe had hindered and obstructed them during the April 27 demonstration. The discretion to initiate a prosecution rests with individual police and is not subject to comment or review by me as Minister.
(10) The question of costs is a matter for decision by the Presiding Magistrate.
ANTI-DISCRIMINATION BOARD RECOMMENDATIONS ON HIV-AIDS
Mr O'Grady asked the Minister for Police and Emergency Services and Vice-President of the Executive Council -
(1) Does the Minister support the recommendation in the Anti-Discrimination Board's Report "Discrimination - The Other Epidemic" that existing Police Circulars on HIV and AIDS should be withdrawn and replaced with a new circular which clearly prohibits the recording of information regarding a person's HIV status or sexual orientation, unless it is directly relevant to the identification of a hate crime or a crime in which prejudice was a factor?
(2) If not, why not?
(3) When will the replacement circulars be distributed to police?
Answer -
(1) The Commissioner of Police, Mr A. Lauer, has advised that the Police Service supports, in principle, the general objectives of the Board's report. Consistent with this view and to meet the needs of the Police Service, a new detailed policy has been developed.
(2) Not applicable.
(3) I am advised that proposed new procedures will be considered by the Commissioner, in the near future.
POLICE SERVICE MARKET RESEARCH COSTS
Mr O'Grady asked the Minister for Police and Emergency Services and Vice-President of the Executive Council -
(1) How much did the Police Service pay for the market research conducted by Frank Small and Associates on "crime and fear"?
(2) How often is this research conducted?
(3) What has been the total cost of each report into "crime and fear" since its inception?
Answer -
(1) Community surveys are an integral part of community based policing. The research conducted by Frank Small and Associates does not only cover "crime and fear" issues. It measures the public's general satisfaction with the performance of the Police Service; the level and nature of community concern with crime and the potential of becoming a victim; the community's perception about where policing attention should be focused; community ratings of the New South Wales Police Service in dealing with specific crime; and major types of citizen contact with police and satisfaction with that police contact.
The total cost of the surveys from July 1988 to end of current contract (September 1992) is $439,380.
Page 7059
(2) The research has been ongoing since 1988 and is reported on every six months. 217 people are interviewed per month. The sample is randomly selected, both in terms of telephone numbers and household member chosen for interview.
(3) The contract is tendered every two years. The sample size was reduced for the 1990-2 contract. This accounts for the cost difference between the 1988-90 and 1990-2 contract.
July 1988 to May 1990 contract: $269,380
Pilot study $1,320
July-November 1988 Report $60,785
January-May 1989 Report $66,863
July-November 1989 Report $66,863
January-May 1990 Report $73,549
October 1990 to September 1992 Contract: $170,000
1990/91 Report $81,000
1991/92 Report $89,000
POLICE SERVICE REPORT ON ANTI-GAY CRIME
Mr O'Grady asked the Minister for Police and Emergency Services and Vice-President of the Executive Council -
(1) Has the Minister directed the Police Service to produce a report on the adequacy of policing anti-gay crimes with recommendations for its improvement, as recommended by the Anti-Discrimination Board's Report "Discrimination - The Other Epidemic"?
(2) If not, why not, and when will this be done?
(3) If so, will the report be completed within the time frame?
(4) When will the Minister or Commissioner announce the program for the development of better relations with the gay community, also as recommended by the Board's report?
Answer -
(1) A Working Party, established in April this year to examine and discuss issues which impact on police relations with Gay and Lesbian communities and the policing of anti-gay/lesbian crimes, is currently discussing and developing relevant strategies. Some of which are:
-A one half day workshop for approximately 25 Patrol Commanders in September with input from Gay and Lesbian members of the community.
-An On-the-Job training package on police relations with minority groups.
-The feasibility of extending the current hate crimes data collection trial once it is evaluated by the Human Rights Commission and the Police Service.
-Evaluation and review of Police Gay/Lesbian Liaison officer position at Patrol level.
(2) Not applicable.
(3) Considering the need to give full and detailed attention to the issues raised, it is unlikely that the Working Party will have completed its final report within the Anti-Discrimination Board's time frame.
(4) A number of programs and initiatives to improve police relations with the Gay/Lesbian communities, contained in the Report of the Streetwatch Implementation Advisory Committee, which I launched in February this year, are already in place.
BURRENDONG DAM SPORTING FACILITIES
Mr Egan asked the Minister for School Education and Youth Affairs representing the Minister for Natural Resources -
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(1) What was the cost of:
(a) the construction of a cricket pitch and nine hole golf course at Burrendong Dam;
(b) the tennis court and cricket nets at Toonumbar Dam?
(2) Who authorised these works and for what reason?
Answer -
(1) The costs were:
(a) Burrendong - Cricket pitch $6,600
(b) Toonumbar - Tennis court $26,846
(2) The projects were endorsed in principle by my colleague the Minister for Natural Resources and approved by the Director of the Department of Water Resources (DWR) under his normal delegations. The projects are part of a larger program to develop business initiatives at the DWR's 17 major dam sites.
POWERHOUSE MUSEUM EMPLOYEE Ms TELIGA
Mr Egan asked the Minister for Police and Emergency Services and Vice-President of the Executive Council representing the Attorney General, Minister for Consumer Affairs and Minister for Arts -
(1) Is Ms Jane de Teliga, former Press Secretary to the Minister for the Arts, employed by the Power House Museum as a temporary employee under Section 38 of the Public Sector Management Act?
(2) If so, during what periods in the last three years has she been so employed?
(3) Were these periods in excess of the limits prescribed by Section 38 (4) of the Public Sector Management Act?
(4) If so, was the approval of the Industrial Authority sought and obtained and, if so, when?
Answer -
(1) Yes.
(2) From 20 June 1989 to 11 November 1990 (part-time) and since 2 December 1991.
(3) No. Ms de Teliga's employment was in accordance with the provisions of the Public Sector Management Act 1988 and the Public Sector Management (General) Regulation 1988 made under the Public Sector Management Act.
(4) Not applicable.
ENFORCEMENT OF ILLEGAL DRUG LAWS
Mrs Symonds asked the Minister for Police and Emergency Services and Vice-President of the Executive Council -
(1) How much money has been spent by the Police Department in this year and each of the last four years on enforcing the laws relating to the use of illegal drugs.
(2) How many arrests have been made this year and in each of the last four years for:
(a) Offences relating to personal use of:
(i) marijuana;
(ii) heroin;
(iii) amphetamines;
(iv) cocaine.
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(b) Offences relating to trafficking in:
(i) marijuana;
(ii) heroin;
(iv) cocaine.
(3) What kind of drugs and what quantity of drugs has the Drug Enforcement Agency been able to confiscate in this year and in each of the last four years?
(4) Does the community have less illegal drugs available now than in the four previous years?
(5) Is Community use of the following drugs declining/increasing:
(a) legal drugs;
(b) illegal drugs?
(6) How does the Minister evaluate the benefit to the community of drug enforcement expenditure?
(7) Is evaluation of the Drug Enforcement Agency work conducted internally or externally?
Answer -
(1) As a major priority of the NSW Police Service Corporate Plan, drug law enforcement operates at several levels throughout the NSW Police Service. Visible street dealing and the use of illicit substances, is countered through enforcement at patrol level and by the regional drug units. The cost of such enforcement is included in patrol and regional budgets and is not easily identified.
The focus of drug law enforcement within the NSW Police Service is the Drug Enforcement Agency, which was established as an initiative of this government in April 1989. Details of the costs involved in the running of the Agency since its inception, are as follows:
 | 89/90
$'000 | 90/91
$'000 | 91/92
$'000 |
| Employee Related | Not available | 9,999 | 11,151 |
| Recurrent | 2,292 | 2,609 | 2,555 |
| Capital | - | 397 | - |
(2) Figures available at the Police Statistics Branch provide the number of charges laid for each drug type. Consequently, charge numbers, rather than the number of arrests are given.
(a) No. charges laid relating to the personal use of drugs in NSW
| Drug Type | 88/89 | 89/90 | 90/91 | 91/92 |
| Marijuana | 8,713 | 10,191 | 10,480 | 13,147 |
| Heroin | 2,106 | 1,214 | 1,137 | 1,165 |
| Amphetamines | 959 | 1,053 | 943 | 1,091 |
| Cocaine | 162 | 158 | 115 | 152 |
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(b) No. charges laid relating to trafficking in drugs in NSW
| Drug Type | 88/89 | 89/90 | 90/91 | 91/92 |
| Marijuana | 3,005 | 3,388 | 4,074 | 5,876 |
| Heroin | 496 | 374 | 314 | 484 |
| Amphetamines | 260 | 304 | 219 | 330 |
| Cocaine | 41 | 75 | 58 | 66 |
(3) Drugs seized by the DEA since its inception
| 1989 | 1990 | 1991 | 1992
(to end of June) | TOTAL |
| Amphetamines | 42.303kg | 4.394kg | 24.269kg | 2.650kg | 73.644kg |
| Cocaine | 2.917kg | 1.778kg | 5.315kg | 1.462kg | 11.472kg |
| Ecstacy | 87.3g | 1.111kg | 586.76g | 922.09g | 2.777kg |
| Hallucinogen | 28 trips | 3117 trips | 9937 trips | 62 trips | 13144 trips |
| Heroin | 19.475kg | 3.321kg | 26.527kg | 12.002kg | 61.325kg |
| Cannabis Leaf | 43.611kg | 138.742kg | 98.331kg | 297.741kg | 578.425kg |
| Cannabis oil | 7.1 litres | - | - | 36ml | 7.136 litres |
| Cannabis seeds | - | 80g | 6.7g | 652g | 738.7g |
Cannabis
resin | 3.140kg | 55g | 21.764kg | 768.424kg | 793.383kg |
Cannabis
plants | 213,517 | 88,910 | 97,252 | 50,359 | 450,038 |
(4) It is virtually impossible to obtain precise quantitative information regarding the amount of illicit drugs in the community. This issue can only be addressed by looking at indicators of drug use.
-The number of `supply' charges relating to heroin rose by 42% between 1990 and 1991 in NSW, despite the fact that overall heroin charges remained stable. As this means a greater number of suppliers are being taken out of the market, the logical conclusion is that there has been a reduction in the availability of heroin.
-The price of heroin has remained stable at approximately $300 a gram for the last 5-10 years, meaning that in real terms, it is now much cheaper. As this price is determined purely on a supply/demand basis, one of two things must have occurred - supply must be up or demand down.
There are a number of factors which indicate that the supply has not in fact risen. First, the number of suppliers being taken out of the market is increasing. Second, there has been a marked decrease in the purity level of heroin seized at street level.
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The need to further cut heroin would logically arise if the amount available were reduced, requiring dealers to make what is available go further.
The other alternative is that the demand for heroin has reduced, thus reducing its prevalence in the community.
-With regard to the most widely used illicit drug, cannabis, the indications are that the amount available has been substantially reduced.
Since its inception the DEA has seized over 450,000 cannabis plants, 793 kg of cannabis resin and 578 kg of cannabis leaf. The price of cannabis remains high at approximately $350 per ounce. Such a price is a strong indicator of short supply.
-As these two drugs account for over 90% of the illicit drug market in NSW (in terms of its use, supply and possession), as far as the indicators suggest, the community has less illegal drugs available now than in previous years.
(5) (a) The use of legal drugs does not come within the charter of the Drug Enforcement Agency.
(b) It is very difficult to obtain precise figures on the use of illicit drugs in the community. The indicators of drug use suggest:
-The supply of illicit drugs has been reduced. This being the case, it can be inferred that drug use is declining - the community is using less illicit drugs as there is less to be used.
-The degree of use of illicit drugs is being attacked from another perspective as well. There is evidence to suggest that the demand for illicit drugs, particularly heroin has been reduced.
-The only drugs which go against this trend are LSD and cocaine, with figures indicating an increase in use from 1990 to 1991. It should be noted however that these two drugs combined account for less than 3% of the illicit drug market.
(6) The benefits to the community of drug enforcement expenditure can be evaluated on several levels, including:
Arrests and Charges
Since its inception in April 1989, the Drug Enforcement Agency has arrested 6,233 individuals, laying 11,072 charges. This figure does not include efforts made in the Regions, Districts and Patrols. Given the DEA's charter to target middle to upper level drug activity, a significant number of these arrests would be for higher level offences.
Drugs seized
The DEA has seized drugs with a potential street value of over $1 billion ($1,018,947,160). This directly reduces the amount of illicit drugs in the community, contributing to a reduction in the use of illicit drugs.
Reduction of associated crime
The links between drug related crime and other types of crime are well documented. For the most part illicit drugs are paid for from the proceeds of criminal activity. Accordingly, DEA activities have prevented offences that would otherwise have occurred to pay for the illicit drugs.
Deterrent effect
Any law enforcement effort does, to a degree at least, deter individuals from committing offences. This occurs on several levels:
-Deterring individuals who are arrested from committing further offences.
-Deterring society's criminal element from continuing their activities, for fear of being arrested.
-Deterring potential criminals from pursuing such a career, if they consider the risks to outweigh the possible benefits.
Drug enforcement expenditure provides deterrence on all these levels in relation to drug related crime.
Bearing in mind the DEA's charter, this deterrence occurs to individuals involved at a higher strata of the illicit drug scene.
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(7) Evaluation is conducted internally and externally.
Internal Review
-Each Unit of the Agency reports weekly to the Director, DEA in relation to the status of investigations, and any administrative issues requiring attention. The Commanders of Task Forces #1 and #5 also report weekly to the management of the New South Wales Crime Commission.
-The Agency's operations are subject to monthly review by the Target Selection Committee to ensure that the continued application of resources to an investigation is justified by the results being achieved.
-The DEA Finance Committee meets monthly and at other times as required, to monitor Agency expenditure, consider requests for funding and to generally ensure that the Agency's resources are applied in priority order to activities which support the attainment of corporate and Agency objectives.
-Each Unit within the Agency is subject to Annual Inspection by the Director in compliance with Commissioner's Instruction 36.05.
External Review
-The Director, DEA reports on a weekly basis to the State Commander.
-The DEA is subject to review by the Inspector General.
-The Police Board evaluate on a six-monthly basis the progress of the Director, DEA in respect of his Performance Agreement.
-The administrative staffing structure of the DEA was recently reviewed by the Office of Public Management (OPM). The OPM Review noted that the structure proposed by the Agency "is very lean as the DEA is very conscious of operating within budget". Implementation of the proposed restructure was supported by the OPM Review.
ROYAL COMMISSION INTO ABORIGINAL DEATHS IN CUSTODY RECOMMENDATIONS
Miss Kirkby asked:
(i) The Minister for Police and Emergency Services and Vice-President of the Executive Council -
(ii) The Minister for Planning, Minister for Energy, Minister for State Development, and Minister for Tourism -
(iii) The Minister for School Education and Youth Affairs -
(iv) The Minister for Health and Community Services -
(v) The Minister for Police and Emergency Services and Vice-President of the Executive Council representing the Premier, Treasurer and Minister for Industrial Relations, Minister for Further Education, Training and Employment, and Minister for Ethnic Affairs -
(vi) The Minister for Police and Emergency Services and Vice-President of the Executive Council representing the Attorney General, Minister for Consumer Affairs, and Minister for Arts -
(vii) The Minister for Police and Emergency Services and Vice-President of the Executive Council representing the Minister for Transport-, and Minister for the Environment-- -
(viii) The Minister for Planning, Minister for Energy, Minister for State Development and Minister for Tourism representing the Deputy Premier, Minister for Public Works, and Minister for Roads -
(ix) The Minister for Planning, Minister for Energy, Minister for State Development, and Minister for Tourism representing the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs -
Page 7065
(x) The Minister for Planning, Minister for Energy, Minister for State Development, and Minister for Tourism representing the Minister for Local Government, and Minister for Co-operatives -
(xi) The Minister for Planning, Minister for Energy, Minister for State Development, and Minister for Tourism representing the Minister for Conservation and Land Management -
(xii) The Minister for Planning, Minister for Energy, Minister for State Development, and Minister for Tourism representing the Minister for Sport, Recreation and Racing and Minister Assisting the Premier -
(xiii) The Minister for School Education and Youth Affairs representing the Minister for Natural Resources -
(xiv) The Minister for School Education and Youth Affairs representing the Chief Secretary, and Minister for Administrative Services, and Minister Assisting the Premier on the Status of Women -
(xv) The Minister for Health and Community Services representing the Minister for Housing -
(xvi) The Minister for Health and Community Services representing the Minister for Health Services Management -
(xvii) The Minister for Health and Community Services representing the Minister for Justice -
(1) Have the recommendations of the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody been examined by the Minister and the Ministers' Departments as to any implications arising?
(2) Has your Department addressed the recommendations of the Royal Commission in so far as relevant to the Department?
(3) Has your Department, as a result of any review, changed any of its policies or adopted any new policy?
(4) If any policy has been changed or adopted as a result of the recommendations of the Royal Commission, what are those changes or new policies, and what directions have been given to your Department in relation to such policies?
(5) Are there any internal or public documents setting out the changes that have occurred, and if so, what are they?
Answer - (iii) Minister for School Education and Youth Affairs and Minister for Employment and Training
(1) Yes. The recommendations of the RCIADIC Report and their implications have been examined by the Ministry of Education and Youth Affairs, the Department of School Education (DSE), TAFE Commission of New South Wales (TAFE), and the Department of Industrial Relations, Employment, Training and Further Education (DIRETFE). Staff of the Board of Studies (BOS) have prepared a submission for the Board on the implications for it of the recommendations.
(2) Yes. The recommendations have been, and are being, addressed by the Ministry, DES, TAFE, and DIRETFE. BOS will address the implications after it has considered the submission.
(3) Yes. The draft New South Wales Aboriginal Education Policy Strategic Plan for 1993-1995 encompassing all providers of education and training for Aboriginal people in New South Wales, has systematically addressed the recommendations of the RCIADIC.
The Ministry supports and provides policy advice to the Minister on the implementation of government education and training policies. In doing so it is mindful of the recommendations of RCIADIC in its policy advice on Aboriginal issues.
The Department of School Education's responses to RCIADIC are incorporated into its
Page 7066
Aboriginal Education Operational Plan for the 1993-1995 triennium. In particular the Plan addresses the issue of policy and guidelines development for Juvenile Justice Programs within school education. These programs will be co-ordinated by Senior Curriculum Advisers of the Aboriginal Education Unit who have been specifically targeted for the implementation of the RCIADIC recommendations.
The DSE has also recently developed and released (March 1992) the Anti-Racism Statement Policy. This Policy Statement addresses many of the fundamental issues of racism identified by the RCIADIC Report. The DSE is presently developing an initial draft of Guidelines for Aboriginal Education Early Childhood Centres, another key area targeted by the recommendations of the RCIADIC Report.
The New South Wales TAFE Commission has identified a set of priority areas where initiatives will be developed for implementation. The following priority areas will be the initial focus for TAFE action:
- Aboriginal Education Programs in Gaols;
- Aboriginal Education Programs in Juvenile Justice Centres;
- Prison Release Programs;
- Aboriginal Awareness Programs to Non-Aboriginal Personnel;
- Maximising Aboriginal Participation in TAFE;
- Aboriginal Bridging Programs to Higher Education;
- Aboriginal Community Management Training.
Within DIRETFE, the recommendations assisted in strengthening awareness of current policies relevant to Aboriginal people, and both the New South Wales Public Sector Aboriginal Employment Strategy and the Aboriginal Employment Strategy for Local Government in New South Wales have been reviewed in the last 3 months and revised to make them more effective.
(4) The Department of School Education Aboriginal Education Unit has undergone restructuring to establish two Senior Curriculum Adviser positions. They have responsibility for the development, co-ordination and monitoring of the Juvenile Justice Program. The Education Policy (1982) is being reviewed. The Anti-Racism Policy Statement has just been released and an appropriate set of Grievance Procedures is being developed.
The recommendations of the Royal Commission clearly influence the work of the Board of Studies' Aboriginal Education Officers and their Aboriginal Education Curriculum. Officers in BOS are actively involved in bringing the recommendations of the Royal Commission and their implications to the direct attention of syllabus committees. Committees where this has so far occurred are:
- 7-12 Geography;
- 7-12 History;
- K-6 Human Society and its Environment;
- 7-12 Studies of Religion;
- 11-12 Legal Studies;
- 11-12 General Studies;
- K-6 English.
The BOS draft 1993-1995 Aboriginal Education Operational Plan contains proposals which specifically address the recommendations of the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody.
The work of the Board's Aboriginal Education officers also influences the other areas of the Board. An Aboriginal academic has been appointed to BACE.
DIRETFE proposes to extend the New South Wales Public Sector Aboriginal Employment Strategy for a further 3 year period (1992-1995) to improve the status of Aboriginal people.
The Local Government Aboriginal Employment Strategy provides a guide for Local Government to achieve employment equity for Aboriginal people. It is based on a
Page 7067
comprehensive approach, supported by programs which can be tailored to meet the employment profiles of each Local Government Authority and meet the needs of present and potential Aboriginal employees. This strategy has a target of 376 positions during the period 1990-1995.
The New Careers for Aboriginal People Program's achievements have been recognised by the extension of funding by the State Government for 14 community-based regional projects until November 1992. As a valuable adjunct to the New Careers Program, approval has been given for the first stage of an Aboriginal Enterprise Program. This program will assist the generation of additional employment through the development of Aboriginal enterprises by 6 pilot Aboriginal Business Development Officer Projects at established Regional Enterprise Centres.
TAFE has adopted several operational changes in line with the Recommendations from the Royal Commission: a number of awareness-raising courses for Police Services staff have been successfully completed in Redfern and Kempsey, conducted by Aboriginal staff of TAFE New South Wales with the support of the Aboriginal Education Unit.
The TAFE Commission will adopt an enrolment preference policy for suitable Aboriginal applicants for mainstream TAFE courses. Once the mechanisms have been developed, any suitable Aboriginal applicant to a mainstream TAFE course will receive preference for enrolment. TAFE anticipates completing the guidelines for this policy shortly for its introduction in the 1993 academic year.
TAFE will pursue negotiations with the Department of Corrective Services to review the provision of education and training services to Aboriginal prisoners to increase their access to vocational education and training.
(5) The draft New South Wales Aboriginal Education Policy Strategic Plan for 1993-5, which incorporates the policies of all education providers for Aboriginal people in New South Wales, systematically addresses the RCIADIC recommendations. All providers are currently developing their operational plans for the triennium which will also address the RCIADIC recommendations.
DSE documents which set out changes which have occurred as a result of the RCIADIC recommendations are:
- New South Wales Department of School Education Responses to RCIADIC Recommendations;
- Draft 1993-1995 Aboriginal Education Operational Plan (Juvenile Justice Program);
- Draft Guidelines for Aboriginal Early Childhood Centres.
Documents which reflect the Board of Studies' Aboriginal Education responsibilities - which are congruent with the recommendations of the Royal Commission - include:
- Board of Studies Statement of Values and Draft Statement of Principles
- Board of Studies Draft 1993-1995 Aboriginal Education Operational Plan.
Advice provided by Board staff has led to changes in some syllabus documents. For example, explicit inclusion of Aboriginal perspectives in the Years 7-10 History and the Years 7-10 Geography syllabuses, represents a clear advance over past syllabuses. In the writing of the Geography syllabus and teaching kit there has been an active process of Aboriginal community involvement. (This is appropriate to Recommendation 291 of the Royal Commission). Board syllabuses in Aboriginal Studies (the Years 11-12 HSC syllabus and the draft Years 7-10 syllabus) also provide important examples of the Board's policies in this area.
TAFE proposes to release a document outlining the range of initiatives which will be adopted in response to the Recommendations of the Royal Commission.
DIRETFE documents which relate to the recommendations of RCIADIC are:
-Evaluation of the New South Wales Aboriginal Employment Strategy for the Public Sector;
-Aboriginal Employment Strategy for Local Government in New South Wales;
- New Careers for Aboriginal People Program Guidelines (Community Projects).
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GOVERNMENT POLICY ON MINORITY CULTURES
Miss Kirkby to ask:
* (i) The Minister for Police and Emergency Services and Vice-President of the Executive Council -
* (ii) The Minister for Planning, Minister for Energy, Minister for State Development, and Minister for Tourism -
* (iii) The Minister for School Education and Youth Affairs -
(iv) The Minister for Health and Community Services -
(v) The Minister for Police and Emergency Services and Vice-President of the Executive Council representing the Premier, Treasurer and Minister for Industrial Relations, and Minister for Ethnic Affairs -
* (vi) The Minister for Police and Emergency Services and Vice-President of the Executive Council representing the Attorney General, Minister for Consumer Affairs, and Minister for Arts -
* (vii) The Minister for Police and Emergency Services and Vice-President of the Executive Council representing the Minister for Transport-, and Minister for the Environment-- -
* (viii) The Minister for Planning, Minister for Energy, Minister for State Development and Minister for Tourism representing the Deputy Premier, Minister for Public Works, and Minister for Roads -
* (ix) The Minister for Planning, Minister for Energy, Minister for State Development, and Minister for Tourism representing the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs -
* (x) The Minister for Planning, Minister for Energy, Minister for State Development, and Minister for Tourism representing the Minister for Local Government, and Minister for Co-operatives -
(xi) The Minister for Planning, Minister for Energy, Minister for State Development, and Minister for Tourism representing the Minister for Conservation and Land Management -
* (xii) The Minister for Planning, Minister for Energy, Minister for State Development, and Minister for Tourism representing the Minister for Sport, Recreation and Racing and Minister Assisting the Premier -
* (xiii) The Minister for School Education and Youth Affairs representing the Minister for Natural Resources -
(xiv) The Minister for School Education and Youth Affairs representing the Chief Secretary and Minister for Administrative Services, and Minister Assisting the Premier on the Status of Women -
(xv) The Minister for Health and Community Services representing the Minister for Housing -
(xvi) The Minister for Health and Community Services representing the Minister for Health Services Management -
(xvii) The Minister for Health and Community Services representing the Minister for Justice -
(1) Has your Department carried out any studies as to the effect of the implementation of Government policies on minority cultures within New South Wales including Aboriginal cultures?
(2) Will you undertake a review of the policies of your Department to include an education programme as to minority cultures, including Aboriginal cultures?
(3) Will you advise as to what policies your Department pursues which are consistent with a multicultural Australia?
Page 7069
(4) Has your Department reviewed its policies in relation to its statutory obligations under the Anti-Discrimination Act and, if so, what policy modifications have been effected, or have been proposed to be effected to accommodate those statutory obligations?
Answer - (i) The Minister for Police and Emergency Services and Vice-President of the Executive Council
(1) There has been no empirical research as such carried out regarding the effects of the implementation of Government policies on cultures of minority groups including Aboriginal people. However, a number of policies have been developed in this regard. They include:
-Equal Employment Opportunity Annual Report and Management Plan which sets targets for the recruitment of people from non-English speaking background, Aboriginal people and women.
- Ethnic Affairs Policy Statement.
-Aboriginal Employment Policy aimed at achieving equity in employment and service delivery for Aboriginal people.
(2) Policies of the New South Wales Police Service relative to minority cultures have been reviewed on an ongoing basis for a number of years, since the introduction of the Anti-Discrimination Act 1977 by way of equal opportunity annual management plans.
That review has resulted in the introduction of studies through the Police Recruitment Education Program to educate new officers in issues of cultural awareness on Ethnic and Aboriginal people. These issues are also addressed in the following courses for operational Police:
-The supervisors and management courses conducted at the Police Academy.
-Supervisors, Managers and Patrol Commanders course conducted at the Police Academy. These courses contain segments dealing with the cultural and awareness issues of Aboriginal people and people of non-English speaking background.
(3) The New South Wales Police Service when reviewing existing policies and developing new policy, has developed a practice of consultation and referral for advice to where that policy impacts on particular groups, e.g. Aboriginal people. Consultation would take place with the Office of Aboriginal Affairs, the Office of the Director of Equal Opportunity in Public Employment, local community organisations and the New South Wales Aboriginal Land Council.
An Aboriginal education bridging course for potential Aboriginal recruits has been developed by the Police Service in consultation with TAFE to raise the education level of Aboriginal people seeking to become a member of the Police Service.
The New South Wales Police Service has appointed an Aboriginal Client Consultant and an Aged and Ethnic Client Consultant. There are 36 Aboriginal Community Liaison Officers and 4 Ethnic Liaison Officers throughout New South Wales.
Recruitment targets have been set for Police and administrative officers who are either Aboriginal or from non-English speaking background in order to attract more of those groups into the Police Service.
(4) The New South Wales Police Service has reviewed its policies in relation to its statutory obligations under the Anti-Discrimination Act and regularly consults with the Anti-Discrimination board on policy development.
An Ethnic Affairs Policy Statement has been created, introduced and distributed for the attention of Patrol Commanders especially those with a high population of people from minority ethnic backgrounds. This document is being revised and will be available later in the year.
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Answer - (ii) Minister for Tourism & (vii) Minister for Transport
(1) Yes.
(2) Customer service training for staff within the Transport and Tourism Portfolios currently includes multicultural awareness raising.
(3) The Agencies within the Transport and Tourism Portfolios fully comply with the State Government's Equal Employment Opportunity Policy.
(4) These agencies have fulfilled their statutory obligations under the Anti-Discrimination Act.
Answer - (iii) The Minister for School Education and Youth Affairs and Minister for Employment and Training
A. Department of School Education
The Department of School Education has a long history of achievement in catering for the special learning needs of students from minority communities regarding the education of their children.
In addition, the Department's administrative and employment practices are monitored to ensure that they do not form artificial barriers to the participation of individuals of minority culture background.
(1) In 1987 all New South Wales Department of School Education schools were directed by the Director-General of School Education to assess their implementation of the mandatory aspects of both the Aboriginal and Multicultural Education Policy Statements (Memorandum to Principals SPC 86/0076).
The 1989 Basic Skills Tests for Years 3 and 6 students and results were evaluated by academics from Monash University from a non-English speaking background perspective, both culturally and linguistically.
In 1991 the Circuit Breaker Program which provides assistance for Years 9-12 non-English speaking background students who are about to leave school and/or are performing at a low academic level was evaluated by two academics from Wollongong University.
In support of its recent Anti-racism Policy the Department of School Education is currently investigating whole-school strategies that promote racial harmony. The aim of this Whole School Anti-racism Project is to provide New South Wales public schools with resources that promote effective community relations and limit race-based discrimination in schools.
(2) Policy reviews are a regular feature of Departmental quality assurance procedures. Policies and services catering for the needs of minority cultures undergo this same monitoring and evaluation.
The Department's Ethnic Affairs Policy Statement has been influential in promoting changes in departmental practices to cater for the needs of individuals in our culturally and linguistically diverse society. Annual reporting through the Ethnic Affairs Commissions is a mandatory part of this policy.
Development of the Multicultural Education Strategic Plan 1993-1997 included extensive consultation with key stakeholders and community groups. This consultation provided significant input into the revised planning document.
The strategies listed for the following year will be reviewed in the light of relevance and need at the time. Key stakeholders will participate in this annual roll-over process.
Two Departmental projects are currently reviewing existing practices and policies. They are:
The Prejudice Kit Project
All New South Wales Government schools have been issued with a Prejudice Kit. Funding was provided to every departmental region in order to assist them with the
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purchasing of complementary resources for their Education Resource Centres as well as with the provision of appropriate professional development activities for school staff in the area of anti-racism education.
The Whole School Anti-Racism Project
Two school clusters have been selected: one in an area with a significant number of non-English speaking background population and the other in an area with a significant number of Aboriginal background population, where two pilot Whole School Anti-Racism Projects are being implemented. The pilot projects are being documented by two co-ordinators. As a result a Resource Package will be developed. This package will be made available to schools throughout the State. The two co-ordinators will also provide professional development activities in order to assist schools in implementing their school based responses to the recently launched Anti-Racism Policy Statement.
(3) The Department has a number of policies which cater to the special needs of members of minority culture communities:
- Multicultural Education Policy Statement;
- Aboriginal Education Policy Statement;
- Ethnic Affairs Policy Statement;
- Equal Employment Opportunities Policy;
- Policy on the Employment of Teachers with Overseas Qualifications;
- The Anti-Racism Policy Statement.
(4) The Anti-Racism Policy Statement and its implementation strategies are the Department's response to the Anti-Discrimination Act.
B. Board of Studies
(1) A proposal for a 3 year longitudinal study into curriculum relevance and its impact on Aboriginal students is being considered as part of the Board of Studies' 1993-1995 Aboriginal Education Operational Plan.
A Language Feasibility Study and Early childhood Literacy Review are also being conducted by the Board's Aboriginal Education staff.
As part of the Board of Studies Ethnic Affairs Commission of New South Wales are co-operating to develop strategies for collecting appropriate data on the ethnicity of public examination candidates to assist in determining curriculum and information needs of ethnic minorities.
(2) The policies of the Board of Studies clearly include a focus on the needs of minority cultures. The Board of Studies Statement of Values and Draft Statement of Principles includes a Statement concerning each of the following:
- Aboriginal Education;
- Multicultural Education;
- Education of Students from non-English Speaking Backgrounds.
When Board syllabuses are developed or reviewed, Board staff will ensure that they incorporate aims, objectives, outcomes, content, and teaching, learning and assessment strategies which are consistent with these values and Principles.
The Board of Studies recently appointed a Senior Policy Officer with a specific role in the area of Multicultural Education and English as a Second Language. The officer's responsibilities are to advise and assist in the development of syllabuses and support materials to ensure that they are inclusive and consistent with values and principles in this area.
(3) The following policies of the Board of Studies are all consistent with a multicultural Australia.
The Board's Statement of Values and Draft Statement of Principles includes a Statement concerning each of the following:
- Aboriginal Education;
- Multicultural Education;
- Education of Students from non-English Speaking Backgrounds.
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Other national and state legislation and policy documents which are taken into consideration in the work of the Board and its officers include:
- the Australian Language and Literacy Policy;
- the National Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Educational Policy;
- the Education Reform Act of 1990
- the Anti-Discrimination Act and the 1989 Racial Vilification Amendment Act;
- Equal Employment Opportunity Act;
- International Convention against Discrimination, to which Australia is a signatory.
The Board's Ethnic Affairs Policy was approved by the Ethnic Affairs Commission of New South Wales in June 1992. This policy presents goals and strategies to:
-ensure the absence of negative discrimination and the promotion of cultural sensitivity in Board of Studies' syllabuses;
-promote equal access to public examinations and credentials for members of racial and ethnic minorities;
-promote equal access to information on school registration and accreditation for racial and ethnic minorities;
-improve communication to ethnic minorities of information about Board policies, processes, syllabuses, examinations and credentials.
As a result of the Board's commitment to this policy, information about the School Certificate and the Higher School Certificate has been published and provided in a number of community languages.
From 1996, it will be compulsory for all New South Wales students in Years 7-10 to complete at least 100 hours study of a Language Other Than English (LOTE). The Board also offers a wide variety of languages, as well as a large number of community languages.
To ensure the ongoing access of students to assessment and credentials in many of the very small community languages in difficult economic times, the Board of Studies participates in the National Assessment Framework for Languages at Senior Secondary Level. In co-operation with the assessment authorities in South Australia and Victoria, examinations in 19 of the small candidature languages will continue to be offered. These languages include, for example, Estonian, Lithuanian and Polish.
New syllabuses are also being developed for future assessment in a number of additional languages e.g. Armenian, Korean. The Board also offers syllabuses for native speakers in Japanese and Indonesian.
(4) Staff of the Board of Studies have considered the statutory obligations under the Anti-Discrimination Act in a number of contexts. This was done when developing the Board's Statement of Values and Draft Statement of Principles, and also when developing the Board's Ethnic Affairs Policy Statement. It has also been done in regard to the development of particular syllabuses, most notably the new syllabuses in Personal Development, Health and Physical Education. The development of the Board's Statement of Values/Principles is a clear example of a policy which reflects the principles of the Anti-Discrimination Act.
C. The Ministry of Education and Youth Affairs
(1&2) The Ministry supports and provides policy advice to the Minister on the implementation of Government education and training policies. It also manages a number of specific programs catering to minority cultures. A recent review was undertaken of the Ethnic Schools Program to ensure an equitable approach to the funding of community organisations offering language and cultural programs.
(3) (i) The Ministry is currently reviewing its Ethnic Affairs Policy Statement (EAPS) and preparing an EAPS report for submission to the Ethnic Affairs Commission. The EAPS will cover all aspects of the operation of the Ministry and be integrated into the performance management system being developed in the Ministry.
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(ii) The Office of Youth Affairs funds:
-the Helping Early School Leavers Program (HELP) assisting early school leavers increase their literacy, numeracy and social skills;
-38% of participants have been from non-English speaking backgrounds,
-6% are from Aboriginal backgrounds,
-the Circuit Breaker Program which assists young people from non-English speaking backgrounds to move from school to further education, training and work,
-the Koori Youth Program which assists young Aboriginal people who have left school early and are unemployed, or who are at risk of leaving school early.
(iii) The Ministry, through a Board of Management is responsible for the Ethnic Schools Program which provides grants to ethnic communities to run programs of language and cultural maintenance.
(4) The Ministry's role is carried out in full cognisance of the statutory obligations of the Anti-Discrimination Act.
D. TAFE Commission of New South Wales
(1) The previous Minister for Employment, Training and Further Education recently approved a comprehensive set of proposals from the TAFE Commission in response to the Predl Review of Equity Programs in TAFE. This Review, which was followed by extensive community consultation, focused on means to improve the delivery of services to minority cultures and disadvantaged clients of TAFE, including Aboriginal people.
(2) The TAFE Commission has an extensive system of educational programs to meet the vocational education and training needs of minority groups, including Aboriginal people. TAFE has a permanent Aboriginal Education Unit and a Multicultural Education Unit, both of which focus attention on culturally appropriate delivery of education and training to minority groups. TAFE also offers an Aboriginal Studies course to non-Aboriginal people.
(3) TAFE has developed policies for Aboriginal and Multicultural education and training. These policies guide TAFE's delivery and clearly set out TAFE's responses to the demands of the community for specific programs to meet the needs of these disadvantaged groups. TAFE also has an EEO policy which aims to guarantee all employees equitable employment practices.
The TAFE Multicultural Access Centre provides a range of courses to TAFE employees, as well as to other organisations, on Managing cultural Diversity, Multicultural conflict Resolution and programs related to establishing and utilising Interpreter Services.
(4) The TAFE Commission has established a range of policies and programs to meet its obligations under the Anti-Discrimination Act, including Part IX A dealing with Equal Employment Opportunity goals and objectives. These policies and programs are regularly reviewed to ensure that they meet current needs and priorities.
The TAFE Commission is currently developing an anti-racism policy. This process is incorporating a review of existing policy to ensure TAFE is in line with both EEO and Anti-Discrimination policy and to promote anti-racism initiatives and anti-racial harassment procedures.
Recruitment and employment procedures in TAFE promote the intentions of the Anti-Discrimination Act to ensure promotion and employment on the basis of merit. The TAFE Act specifies that appointment and promotion will be conducted on the basis of merit. The EEO Unit, in conjunction with TAFE's Human Resource Development Division, delivers programs to TAFE staff on their rights and responsibilities under EEO provisions.
E. Department of Industrial Relations, Employment, Training and Further Education
(1) Both the New South Wales Public Sector Aboriginal Employment Strategy and the Aboriginal employment Strategy for Local Government in New South Wales have been reviewed in the last 3 months and revised to make them more effective.
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(2) The Aboriginal Employment Unit of the Department as one of its major roles maintains an ongoing review of all Departmental policies that impinge on aboriginal education and employment.
(3) (i) In July 1988 this Government appointed a Committee to inquire into the recognition of overseas qualifications in New South Wales. Following the recommendation of the Committee of Inquiry, the Government appointed a Migrant Employment and Qualifications Board to address and overcome problems arising in relation to assessment and recognition procedures, information and counselling services and the provision of refresher and bridging programs. The efforts of the Board and its administrative unit in DIRETFE, in assisting many thousands of individuals and numerous ethnic groups by providing information and ensuring that qualifications and skills acquired overseas are able to be put into practise by newer Australians in the community, have been recognised by the Commonwealth Government and other State Governments as pioneering new and more just approach to these issues.
(ii) A temporary position of Migrant Co-ordinator (Trades) has been established with the Vocational Training Board, with responsibilities for reviewing current assessment and licensing procedures, information and counselling services and bridging programs for overseas trade trained persons. Eight similar positions have been funded by the Migrant Employment and Qualifications Board in a range of assessing and registration authorities in New South Wales in order to review procedures for professional occupations.
(iii) In accordance with a memorandum from the Premier to all Ministers, DIRETFE is currently co-ordinating a Departmental Ethnic Affairs Policy Statement (EAPS) and preparing an EAPS report for submission to the Ethnic Affairs Commission. The EAPS is to be fully integrated within the corporate business planning process and into review/evaluation procedures.
(iv) 46 Training Offices, employed by this Department to monitor and support apprentices and trainees in the course of their training, have undertaken specially developed inhouse training on strategies for increasing NESB participation in apprenticeship and linkages with other agencies. A strategy has been established for the negotiation of new apprenticeships for NESB people and will have an in-built evaluation mechanism.
(v) As required under Section 9A of the Anti-Discrimination Act, the Department is devising and implementing strategies with the purpose of increasing employment and promotional opportunities within the Department for members of minority cultures and disadvantaged groups.
Answer - (vi) Minister for Consumer Affairs
(1) The Department of Consumer Affairs has recently carried out two surveys of the usage of frontline services by clients from non-English speaking backgrounds. The results of these surveys are analysed in a Departmental paper issued in June 1992. This information will assist the development of initiatives aimed at optimising the quality of service delivery to all minority cultures within New South Wales.
The Department released its community workers' handbook, ‘The Consumer Handbook' on 29 July 1992. Its main focus is disadvantaged groups, and principally targets clients from non-English speaking backgrounds, as well as those of Aboriginal descent.
This initiative will be followed in October this year with the Department's ‘Disadvantaged Consumers Plan' which will enable the Department of Consumer Affairs to determine which client groups in the community are not being reached as effectively as possible, and enable responses to be targeted to those most in need.
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(2) The Department has recently embarked on a community education project for Aboriginal consumers, which is being co-ordinated from the Department's Western Regional Office at Dubbo. Dubbo office administers the vast majority of population centres which have significant Aboriginal numbers.
(3) The Department will shortly be preparing a new Ethnic Affairs Policy Statement. The Department's extensive media liaison program has long placed a high priority on targeting the ethnic press and multicultural media outlets. Multilingual signage and multilingual pamphlets and documents to advise clients from non-English speaking backgrounds on questions of access and available services will be available in Consumer Affairs' Service Centres during August 1992.
In addition, regular seminars on consumer issues and rights in the marketplace are presented by Departmental staff to newly arrived migrants through the office of the Adult Migrant English Service.
(4) The Department's Equal Opportunity Management Plan has been developed in accordance with the guidelines established for all Departments by the Office of the Director of Equal Opportunity in Public Employment.
It contains a commitment to increase the representation of minority groups throughout the Department's operational classifications and grades.
In particular, this goal encompasses a strategy of increasing the employment profile of people with disabilities, of Aboriginal descent and from non-English speaking backgrounds. Success in these areas is already being achieved.
Answer - (viii) Deputy Premier, Minister for Public Works, and Minister for Roads
(1) No.
(2) The Department of Public Works and the Roads and Traffic Authority's education programs and policies already incorporate attention to minority cultures.
(3) The Public Works and the Roads and Traffic Authority adhere to the Government's policies of equal opportunity and multi-culturalism in their personnel policies.
For example, services provided by the RTA include interpreters, language aids, translators and multi-lingual publications. It is also currently involved in a number of road safety activities aimed at non-English speakers.
The Authority also undertakes regular EEO audits throughout its area of operations. Additionally, it has Aboriginal Staff Network Strategies in place and plans to evaluate these by February, 1993.
(4) Public Works and the Roads and Traffic Authority continually monitor their polices in regard to statutory obligations under the Anti-Discrimination Act and maintain an on-going commitment to implement the Government's policies in regard to minority cultures.
Answer - (ix) Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs
(1) No.
(2) New South Wales Agriculture has an Ethnic Affairs Policy which ensures the needs of the broad community are addressed. New South Wales Agriculture has also responded positively to Aboriginal clients needs by supporting programs such as the Aboriginal Traineeship and Aboriginal Apprentices Employment Schemes. The Murrumbidgee College of Agriculture located at Yanco has structured an Aboriginal Rural Training Program. This program trains Aboriginal agricultural employees in skills to enable them to work more effectively on Aboriginal owned properties.
(3) New South Wales Agriculture has a policy of "mainstreamed" services to all clients. An annual report is prepared for the Ethnic Affairs Commission which includes the objectives of the ethnic affairs policy and a management plan on how these objectives will be realised and evaluated.
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(4) All policies within New South Wales Agriculture, including those covered by Anti-Discrimination Act, are reviewed and modified by the appropriate Program Managers annually or as required.
Answer - (x) Minister for Local Government, and the Minister for Co-operatives -
(1) The Department of Local Government launched a Pilot Project in 1987 designed to assist local councils to develop access and equity strategies for their services and facilities. This Project, the Local Government Ethnic Affairs Policy Statement, (LEAPS) Pilot, encouraged local councils to review their operations in regard to service provision for residents and ratepayers of non-English speaking background.
A significant number of New South Wales councils, particularly in the metropolitan area, have already developed and implemented LEAPS statements.
The Department continues to assist and encourage councils to develop LEAPS policies and programmes.
The Local Government and Aboriginal Community Management Project report was recently released by the New South Wales Department of Local Government and Co-operatives. The Management Project sought to build on research projects which have been carried out over recent years and which have stressed the importance of consultation and negotiation at the local level for ensuring the maximum benefit to Aboriginal people and the community generally.
The objectives of the project were:
-to monitor and evaluate the effectiveness of the Moree Plains Shire Aboriginal Coordinating Committee;
-to expand the skills and understanding of Aboriginal people regarding Local Government in the Moree Plains Shire;
- to increase Council awareness and ability to respond to Aboriginal people;
-to develop management plan guidelines for the Aboriginal Co-ordinating Committee at Moree, and for use in other Local Government areas; and
-to make recommendations to all parties as to how the existing consultation process can be improved.
Moree Plains Shire Council agreed to participate in this project as it had begun to implement some community consultation techniques. The operations of the Moree Aboriginal Co-ordinating Committee were recorded and analysed.
In addition to this project a programme was developed to encourage Aboriginal people to participate in local government. The aims were to increase the number of Aboriginal people on the local government roll and to improve voting turnout in the local government elections in September 1991.
The 44 Aboriginal people who stood at the 1991 local government elections is evidence that in many areas new ground has been broken. The candidates see themselves as being pioneers in an area where previously Aboriginal people would not usually be involved. As a result those who were unsuccessful at the election still feel confident in the progress they have made and that it will be easier in the future for either themselves or other candidates to stand and represent Aboriginal issues. Many also commented on the level of support they received from non-Aboriginal voters in their electorates. However, it is clear that voters will vote for the candidate whom they consider will best represent them whether that candidate is Aboriginal or non-Aboriginal. Merely standing as an Aboriginal candidate does not itself ensure delivery of the Aboriginal vote or the non-Aboriginal vote.
It is important that contact is maintained with the key potential Aboriginal catalysts in the community to ensure that the impetus for self-determination and involvement in the electoral process is maintained. Those candidates who may or may not have been successful in 1991 have clearly indicated their desire to be involved in pursuing the
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increase of Aboriginal decision makers within local government in the future.
Additionally the Department formed a Local Government Aboriginal Network in 1987 following many reports of poor relationships between local councils and Aboriginal Communities.
The Network aims to assist Aboriginal elected members and local councils to discuss issues relevant to Aboriginal communities and local councils.
The Department has also been a key player in the Local Government Aboriginal Employment Strategy. This strategy continues to be the most effective means of utilising the joint Commonwealth and State resources available for Aboriginal employment programmes in local government.
(2) The Department of Local Government as part of the LEAPS programme developed and distributed free to councils a comprehensive training package and training video. This package was a direct result of the LEAPS Project, in that councils identified a need for improved training and resources to ensure the success of their own access and equity strategies.
The Department is constantly reviewing its policies in relation to Aboriginal communities and Local Government. To aid this process the Department employs 2 full-time Aboriginal officers who work exclusively in this area.
In 1991, the Department made a response to the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody; in relation to education programmes, the Department made the following comments:
On Recommendation 84:
"State and Local Government should collaborate to develop an educational approach to the issue of public drinking rather than a prohibitive legislative approach as that taken by the Street Drinking Legislation".
On Recommendation 205:
"Local Government development activities which outline planning priorities are, generally speaking, participative processes. However, it is recommended that Aboriginal initiatives in the area are sought and publicised to develop stronger and more positive images of Aboriginal people".
On Recommendation 240:
"Training for non-Aboriginal people who are delivering services to Aboriginal people - to understand and appreciate the traditions and culture of contemporary Aboriginal society - would seem to be a pre-requisite for employment [on council]. Such training programmes should be organised by Aboriginal people or by a non-Aboriginal person who has approval of Aboriginal people."
And on Recommendation 247:
"More and/or better quality training should be provided in the delivery of health and community care services. Local councils will need to recognise that staff working to deliver services to Aboriginal people require adequate training especially in the firm understanding of and commitment to primary health care.
The Department has recognised the necessity for education programmes to be provided to non-Aboriginal people, and has a commitment to stand by its comments to the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody.
(3) The Department of Local Government is committed to ensuring improved access and equity to not only its own services but also to local government. In 1991 the Department formulated an Access and Equity Management Plan outlining the range of strategies the Department is pursuing both in terms of its own portfolio and also in regard to local councils themselves.
Additionally, the Department has included ideas and issues of access and equity in formulating the proposed new Local Government Act.
(4) The Department is aware of its obligations under the Anti-Discrimination Act and has appropriate mechanisms in place to ensure policy is developed with appropriate regard to this Act.
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In relation to the development of the proposed new Local Government Act the Department has held discussions with and received submissions from the Anti-Discrimination Board and Office of the Director of Equal Opportunity in Public Employment. The Department and the Local Government and Shires Associations are currently working with the New South Wales Anti-Discrimination Board to produce guidelines for local government on their obligations under current state and federal discrimination legislation. Additionally, the proposed new Local Government Act will contain employment opportunity provisions covering all New South Wales local government employers.
Answer - (xii) Minister for Sport, Recreation and Racing
(1) Yes. The Department has in place monitoring mechanisms to make sure it is reaching all sections of the community. Such monitoring now occurs for most major program areas of the Department. As well as determining the customer profile for programs the Department monitors the levels of customer satisfaction.
In addition the Department carries out regular reviews of its Policies. The Department makes it a practice of including representatives of key customer groups in such reviews and also in the development of any new Policies.
(2) The Department has an ongoing process of review for major policy areas. In respect to education programmes, the Department conducts training programmes for its staff to ensure they are aware of issues which need to be considered in the design, operation and evaluation of programs. The Department specifically conducts cross-cultural training programmes for staff in respect to Aboriginal culture.
(3) The Department's approach to policy or program development and review is considered to be consistent with a multicultural Australia. It is the Department's Policy that such policies or programs should specifically meet the needs of our clients, and that staff involved in program development should be sensitive to the differing cultural backgrounds within our community. In order to ensure this occurs there is widespread consultation with all relevant client groups. As an example, the Department recently conducted a pilot program in conjunction with the Australian Sports Commission and the Australian Coaching Council with community based Aboriginal sporting coaches. As a result the standard coach accreditation course will be modified to specifically meet the needs of the Aboriginal Community.
The Department of Sport, Recreation and Racing is committed to serving all members of the New South Wales Community, indeed one of the key performance areas identified in the Department's Corporate directions is "fairness", that is, ensuring that the Department's services are fairly distributed throughout the community.
(4) When developing and reviewing policies, the Department considers the needs of all sections of the New South Wales community. To ensure that obligations are met in respect to the Anti-Discrimination Act, all Department staff who are involved in staff selection must undertake a training programme which includes consideration of obligations under the Act.
Answer - (xiii) Minister for Natural Resources -
(1) No studies have been carried out by the Departments of Water Resources, Mineral Resources and NSW Fisheries in relation to ethnic cultures.
(2) The Department of Water Resources has put in place Senior Executive Service Contracts, which include specific EEO and Ethnic Affairs Policy performance indicators. This will ensure that strategies to promote equity in service access and employment are actively pursued. Education programs covering minority and Aboriginal cultures may be one component of these strategies.
Page 7079
The Department of Mineral Resources currently employs an Aboriginal Senior Policy Officer to deal with a range of mainstream and Aboriginal policy and project issues. The role of this Officer is to advise the Department on matters of sensitivity such as Aboriginal land rights and sites protection. As such, the Officer plays a substantial role in the development of policy and undertakes a liaison function so as to ensure that the implementation of Departmental policy and other administrative matters have minimal impact on the lives of Aboriginal people.
In some instances, joint Government/Community Committees have been established to provide local communities with the opportunity to express views they may have in respect of exploration and/or mining activities, e.g. Baryulgil and Hunter Valley Working Party.
Further to this, the Department is currently conducting an Aboriginal Cultural Awareness Program. This Program will run over a twelve (12) month period and is designed to increase the awareness of Staff on matter of Aboriginal Australia, and to create a working environment where the processing of exploration and mining applications continues to be dealt with in a fair and expeditious manner.
In achieving this end, the Program is seen as a way of creating a suitable environment where issues such as land use conflicts, Aboriginal land access, and the protection of Aboriginal sites might be resolved in a mutually beneficial way at the early stages of a proposal to explore or mine.
New South Wales Fisheries answer to question (2) is Yes.
(3) The Department of Water Resources vigorously pursues its Ethnic Affairs Policy Statement, which ensures equity and access to all.
The Department of Mineral Resources has recently developed a draft Aboriginal Employment and Training Policy. This policy make specific provision for the creation of employment and training opportunities for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in New South Wales. Further to this the Organisation has an Ethnic Affairs Policy Statement and annually meets its obligations under the NSW Anti-Discrimination Act, in terms of producing an Equal Employment Opportunity Management Plan.
In addition, the Department provides an interpreter service to assist people of Non-English Speaking Background (NESB) in making use of Departmental services.
Officers of NSW Fisheries are aware of and sensitive to the issues affecting people of Non-English Speaking backgrounds including Aboriginal cultures.
(4) Since the introduction of the NSW Anti-Discrimination Act (1977), the Department of Water Resources has reviewed all its human resource policies to ensure they meet statutory obligations. Policy modifications have aimed to integrate EEO principles in recruitment, selection, promotion, access to training and all other conditions of employment. Other policies of the Department cover access to, and provision of, services in line with statutory obligations.
The Department of Mineral Resources reviews its policies in relation to its statutory obligations under the anti-Discrimination Act on an on-going basis.
The Department prepares on an annual basis an EEO Management Report and Plan. The EEO report analyses the Department's achievements in EEO. On the basis of this analysis policies and programs for the future are developed and implemented. Through its Corporate Planning process and performance management system the Department ensures that its Anti-Discrimination policies are an integral part of its operations.
Policies are reviewed and strategies formulated each year in the areas of:
-Information and Communication;
- Recruitment, Selection and Promotion;
-Training and Development;
-Conditions of Service.
Some of the Department's current anti-discrimination strategies include increasing the English language skills of staff from non-English speaking backgrounds and increasing the number of staff from minority groups in occupations and gradings where they are under-represented.
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New South Wales Fisheries has reviewed its policies, in particular, the racial vilification provisions of the Anti-Discrimination Act (1977) and see no need to modify existing policies.
"VIOLENCE AGAINST HOMOSEXUAL MEN AND WOMEN" TEACHING KITS
Mr O'Grady asked the Minister for School Education and Youth Affairs -
(1) How many of the teaching kits titled "Violence Against Homosexual Men and Women" have been distributed to schools?
(2) To which schools have they been distributed?
(3) Will you direct that this anti-violence kit be compulsory teaching in all schools along the same lines as racism is now a subject for compulsory learning?
(4) If not, why not?
Answer -
(1-2) The materials "Resources for Teaching Against Violence" were produced to address issues of violence in three different areas. Section three of these materials was entitled "Violence Against Homosexual Men and Women". 120 master copies of these materials have been distributed to Regions where Assistant Directors-General will decide how they should be used. Some sets will be distributed to Education Resource Centres while some will be placed in particular schools. Regions are able to copy these materials to ensure that they are widely available.
(3-4) The "Resources for Teaching Against Violence" materials will not be made compulsory as they would not necessarily be suitable or appropriate for all schools. It is likely that some schools will adapt and modify these materials while others may address this issue in quite different ways.
Each school is required to develop policies, programs and practices which promote non-violent and non-discrimatory behaviour as part of its Student Welfare policy and Fair Discipline Code. "The Values We Teach" describes the values promoted in Government schools. It specifically rejects racism, sexism and other forms of prejudice and supports respect for different viewpoints and ways of living which contribute to our democracy. These values should be embodied within each school's aims and policy statements and are to be promoted through the curriculum and throughout the total life of the school.
SEMI-TRAILER INTERSTATE REGISTRATION
Mr Jones asked the Minister for Police and Emergency Services and Vice-President of the Executive Council representing the Minister for Transport, and Minister for the Environment -
(1) Do some operators of semi-trailers in New South Wales register the prime mover in New South Wales and the trailer separately in South Australia to avoid road tax in this State?
(2) Does this practice financially disadvantage honest transport operators in New South Wales?
(3) How much revenue is foregone to the State of New South Wales due to this practice?
(4) Has the Minister consulted with the Federal Government to enact a nationwide registration scheme for heavy vehicles?
(5) If so, how are these talks progressing?
(6) Is the Minister able to provide a firm date as to when such a scheme is to be introduced?
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Answer -
(1-6) This is a matter for the Roads and Traffic Authority which comes under the administration of the Deputy Premier, Minister for Public Works and Minister for Roads, the Hon. W.T.J. Murray, M.P.
GLADESVILLE ELECTORATE SCHOOL BUS PASSES
Ms Burnswoods asked the Minister for Police and Emergency Services and Vice-President of the Executive Council representing the Minister for Transport, and Minister for the Environment -
(1) How many students in the Gladesville electorate have had applications for bus passes refused or passes taken away since January 1, 1992?
(2) How many families have an older student with a pass, while the younger student at the same school has been refused a pass?
(3) What difficulties are being experienced by students who attend selective and technology high schools in obtaining bus passes if they travel away from their local high school?
(4) If difficulties are being experienced, what action is the Minister taking to facilitate the provision of bus passes for such students?
Answer -
(1) Free travel bus passes are denied to ineligible students by the schools concerned, bus companies and, on occasions, the Department of Transport. There is no specific record of the numbers of ineligible students refused passes.
(2) The Department of Transport is not aware of any current instances where an older child in a family holds a pass while a younger one is denied. Any instances that are brought to the attention of the Department are promptly investigated.
(3) Eligible students have no difficulty in obtaining free travel bus/rail passes to and from schools attended.
(4) Not applicable.
BUSINESS LICENCE INFORMATION SERVICE
Mr Vaughan asked the Minister for Police and Emergency Services and Vice-President of the Executive Council representing the Attorney General, Minister for Consumer Affairs, and Minister for Arts -
(1) Has the Department of State Development maintained the "Business Licence Information Service" of the previous Department of Business and Consumer Affairs?
(2) If so:
(a) how many staff operate the Service;
(b) what is the Service's budget allocation;
(c) what changes have occurred to the Service since May 1991;
(d) how many inquiries has the Service dealt with since 1988 and since January 1992?
Answer -
(1) Since the demise of the Business & Consumer Affairs Agency in July 1991, the Business Licence Information Service has been maintained by the department of Consumer Affairs.
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(2) (a) The Service has an establishment of eight (8) full-time staff;
(b) The budget allocation for the 1991-92 fiscal year inclusive of salaries was $436,000;
(c) Since May, 1991 the Service has been expanded to include details of ACT and Commonwealth Government business licences. The Service has provided information on behalf of the ACT since May 1992 and the Commonwealth information has been available since July;
(d) The Service commenced operations in November 1989 and since this time it has handled 80,000 enquiries. In the period January through July 1992 the Service has had 20,000 contracts.
"ISSUES PAPER ON FINANCIAL PROTECTION FOR BUILDING SUBCONTRACTORS"
Mr Vaughan asked the Minister for Police and Emergency Services and Vice-President of the Executive Council representing the Premier, Treasurer and Minister for Industrial Relations, Minister for Further Education, Training and Employment, and Minister for Ethnic Affairs -
In relation to a document entitled: "Issues Paper on Financial Protection for Building Subcontractors", released on 31 January 1991 by the Business and Consumer Affairs Agency:
(1) Will the Minister implement the principal recommendation of the Issues Paper?
(2) If not, why not?
(3) If so, when will this occur?
Answer -
(1) The Issues Paper, as its name suggests, was circulated by the former Minster for Business and Consumer Affairs to canvass the views of the major players in the building and construction industry on a number of different proposals to solve the problem of ‘security of payment' for building subcontractors. The Paper did not make any recommendations, rather its purpose was to "invite comment from interested parties on the following options set out in ... the Paper:
- mandatory trusts ...;
- ... a self-funding extension of the current ... insurance scheme for BSC licensees;
- extension of current education ... to subcontractors; and,
- maintenance of the status quo." [Issues Paper, Executive Summary].
(2) Responses to the Issues Paper showed clearly that there was no consensus amongst the major players in the industry on the nature or extent of the problem. The former Minister for Industrial Relations, who hold responsibility for these matters, indicated that he would not be prepared to act on any proposal unless general agreement was available and until the Royal Commission into Productivity in the Building Industry had investigated the issue. The Royal Commission did not make a recommendation that action be taken.
(3) While the matters canvassed in the Issues Paper are not appropriate for implementation, the Government is continuing to consult with the industry and is presently assessing a proposal from the New South Wales Security of Payments Committee.
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TOURISM STRATEGIES AND PLANS
Mr Vaughan asked the Minister for Planning, Minister for Energy, Minister for State Development and Minister for Tourism -
(1) How many Regional Tourism Development Strategies and Local Tourism Plans exist in New South Wales at the present time?
(2) What is the mechanism used in the strategies and plans to facilitate the implementation of the strategies and plans?
Answer -
(1) 6 Regional Tourism Development Strategies and 22 Local Tourism Plans exist in New South Wales at the present time.
(2) All of the strategies and plans produced to date include a detailed implementation strategy/action plan which clearly delineates the steps to be taken, their timing and the parties responsible for taking those steps.
SYDNEY MEETINGS, CONVENTIONS AND SEMINARS
Mr Vaughan asked the Minister for Planning, Minister for Energy, Minister for State Development and Minister for Tourism -
(1) How many associations and corporations have held meetings, conventions and seminars in Sydney since 1 January 1992?
(2) Where have the meetings, conventions and seminars been held?
(3) How many people have come to Sydney as a consequence of the holding of meetings, conventions and seminars in this time?
(4) Which associations and corporations have held meetings, conventions and seminars in Sydney in this time?
Answer -
(1) The Sydney Convention & Visitors Bureau has records relating to 32 associations and corporations that have held major meetings, conventions and seminars in Sydney since January 1992. This information is based on data collected from Bureau member properties and venues.
The meetings recorded do not reflect the additional many small meetings and seminars being held in the city.
(2) The Sydney Convention & Visitors Bureau advises that 15 of these major meetings, conventions and seminars were held in Sydney hotels, 9 in designated conference centres and 8 in other venues.
(3) It is estimated that the major meetings, conventions and seminars attracted 18,193 delegates to Sydney in this time.
(4) The records available from the Sydney Convention and Visitors Bureau list the following associations and corporations as having held meetings, conventions and seminars in Sydney since 1 January, 1992:
-Colgate Palmolive
-International Association of Tour Managers
-AMP
- Institute of Engineers
- Church of Christ Asia Pacific
-International Environment Law Centre
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-Summit Technology
-Amway
-Sudden Infant Death Research Foundation
-Exhibitors Goldmine-Conference & Exhibition Organisers
-Wyeth Pharmaceuticals (2 conferences)
-Australian Council of Responsible Nutrition
-Environmine: Australasian Institute of Mining & Metallurgy
-Australian Society of CPA's
-University of Technology
-Rotary
-12th World Congress on Oral Implantology
-Pembroke Financial Planners Ltd
-Affiliated Advertising Agencies International Inc.
-Pacific Rim Advisory Council
-Universal Federation of Travel Agents (UFTA)
-Inter-Pacific Bar Association
-South Pacific Electricity
-The International Federation of Womens Travel Association
-The Childrens Book Council of Australia
-Australian Gaming Expo
-IBM/IMM
-Australian Forex Association
-Australasian Division of International Academy of Pathology
-Environment Protection Authorities
-Permail Pty Ltd
TOURISM COMMISSION ADVICE ON TOURISM DEVELOPMENT
Mr Vaughan asked the Minister for Planning, Minister for Energy, Minister for State Development and Minister for Tourism -
(1) Does the New South Wales Tourism Commission provides professional/specialist advice to facilitate the development of tourism in New South Wales?
(2) If so, what types of advice are offered?
(3) How is this professional/specialist advice sought by tourist operators?
Answer -
(1) Yes.
(2) The New South Wales Tourism Commission offers professional/specialist advice related to matters such as research, planning, transport and other infrastructure development, education, training and employment issues, product development, marketing and travel information and sales.
(3) Tourist operators seek this advice by directly contacting the Commission's head office or field offices by phone or letter, or by attending seminars/conferences organised by the Commission or ordering its publications.
TOURISM COMMISSION EDUCATION PROGRAMS
Mr Vaughan asked the Minister for Planning, Minister for Energy, Minister for State Development and Minister for Tourism -
Page 7085
(1) Has the New South Wales Tourism Commission implemented any public education programs to facilitate co-operation between the tourist industry and the community?
(2) If so, what are the details of the programs and where are they implemented?
(3) Are these programs reviewed?
(4) Is the Commission designing new programs?
Answer -
(1) Yes.
(2) The NSW Tourism Commission conducts a range of activities which perform a public education function including:
-regular media releases designed to inform the public about tourism issues
-production of a range of information kits and publications on tourism
-maintenance of a specialist tourism library
-production of a video on tourism "Investing in Tourism"
For the past two years the Commission has coordinated an industry steering committee to stage "Tourism Week" to promote the economic, employment, social and environmental benefits of tourism to individuals and communities throughout New South Wales.
Through its regional offices, the Commission also provides advice and assistance to local tourist associations who wish to implement public tourism awareness programs.
(3) Yes.
(4) Yes.
TOURISM COMMISSION SEMINARS ON ENTERPRISE BARGAINING
Mr Vaughan asked the Minister for Planning, Minister for Energy, Minister for State Development and Minister for Tourism -
(1) Will the New South Wales Tourism Commission be holding a series of seminars on the Enterprise Bargaining provisions of the Industrial Relations Act 1991?
(2) What is the proposed content of the seminars?
(3) Who will present the seminars?
(4) How will industry participants be notified of the seminars?
(5) Who will the Commission invite, or expect to attend the seminars?
Answer -
(1) Yes.
(2) The content of the seminars explains to industry operators the process by which agreements are established.
(3) The seminars are presented by the Commissioner for Enterprise Agreements or his representative, representatives from the Registered Clubs Association of NSW, the Restaurant and Catering Association of NSW, Tourism Training Australia, and industrial relations consultants.
(4) Participants have been informed through direct mail-out of brochures, and publicity in electronic and print media.
(5) Those invited to and attending the seminars have been operators in the tourism industry subject to State Industrial Awards, including registered clubs, restaurants, caravan parks, tourist attractions and tour operators.
Page 7086
TOURISM COMMISSION EDUCATION CO-ORDINATOR
Mr Vaughan asked the Minister for Planning, Minister for Energy, Minister for State Development and Minister for Tourism -
(1) Does the New South Wales Tourism Commission employ a senior co-ordinator to co-ordinate tourism and hospitality education?
(2) When was this appointment made? What was the period of appointment?
(3) Who was appointed to this position?
(4) What are the co-ordinator's qualifications and experience in the tourist industry in New South Wales?
Answer -
(1) Yes.
(2) The appointment was made in January, 1991 for a period of two years.
(3) Mr Bruce Thomson was appointed to the position.
(4) It is experience in the training field and its application to tourism that are the relevant qualifications for this position. Mr Thomson has five years experience in federal and state government agencies in implementation of training reforms in a number of industries, including tourism. He has previously worked in the Federal Departments of Tourism and Employment, Education and Training, and the NSW Department of Industrial Relations, Employment, Training and Further Education.
TOURISM COMMISSION EDUCATION CO-ORDINATOR
Mr Vaughan asked the Minister for Planning, Minister for Energy, Minister for State Development and Minister for Tourism -
(1) Has the New South Wales Tourism Commission's senior co-ordinator for tourism and hospitality education had an input into a strategic plan to reform training in the industry?
(2) What were the details of the co-ordinator's input?
Answer -
(1) Yes.
(2) The strategic plan is prepared by Tourism Training New South Wales. As a board Member of Tourism Training New South Wales, the Commission's co-ordinator has had input to the development of the plan through discussions with the Chief Executive and the other members of the board as to priorities for action.
TOURISM COMMISSION "SYDNEY PUSH" CAMPAIGN
Mr Vaughan asked the Minister for Planning, Minister for Energy, Minister for State Development and Minister for Tourism -
(1) Is it a fact that the New South Wales Tourism Commission's "Sydney Push" campaign provides support for tourist industry operators in New South Wales and overseas?
(2) Identify the support given to tourist industry operators in New South Wales and overseas?
(3) Identify the tourist industry operators in New South Wales who have gained support from the Commission through the campaign?
Page 7087
Answer -
(1) Yes.
(2) Support offered to industry operators by the Commission includes formulation of a strategic and tactical marketing campaign, funding towards specific initiatives of the campaign, negotiations with overseas outbound tour operators, the Australian Tourist Commission and international airlines, brochure production, supporting sales missions and media and trade activities.
(3) More than 180 tourist industry operators have participated in the "Sydney Push" campaign, and all industry operators are eligible to participate.
TOURISM COMMISSION "SYDNEY PUSH" CAMPAIGN
Mr Vaughan asked the Minister for Planning, Minister for Energy, Minister for State Development and Minister for Tourism -
(1) Is it a fact that the New South Wales Tourism Commission has devised the "Sydney Push" campaign to develop New South Wales' share of the Asia/Pacific tourist market?
(2) How much money has been allocated to this campaign since 1 January 1992?
(3) How much money has been spent by the Commission on this campaign since 1 January 1992?
(4) Which tourist organisations and operators has the Commission consulted in developing the campaign?
(5) What are the details of the campaign?
Answer -
(1) Yes.
(2) Since 1 January, 1992, a total of $1,649,015 has been allocated to the campaign by the Tourism Commission and industry operators.
(3) To 30 July, 1992, the Commission had spent $459,921 on the "Sydney Push" campaign.
(4) The Commission consulted "peak" industry organisations, including the Tourist Attractions Association of NSW, the Inbound Tourism Organisation of Australia Limited, the Sydney Convention and Visitors Bureau, the Australian Hotels Association and the NSW Council of Tourist Associations, as well as individual tourism operators.
(5) The Commission has co-ordinated thirteen separate programs in the Asia/Pacific markets of Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Malaysia and New Zealand, and in the United Kingdom. The essential elements of the campaign are that it is:
-product based, with specific brochures being produced for each market.
-a co-operative campaign with industry funding exceeding the Commission's expenditure by a factor of 2:1.
-based on the high awareness of Sydney in international markets, but also has the objective of achieving dispersal of visitors throughout New South Wales by using the "Sydney and Beyond" theme.
-strongly sales-oriented, with key wholesalers and agents in each market being enlisted as partners to enable effective product distribution.
-subject to evaluation in respect of each of the initiatives. A number of evaluation mechanisms are in place, with the prime mechanism being bookings generated through participating wholesalers and agents.
Page 7088
BUILDING INDUSTRY TASK FORCE
Mr Manson asked the Minister for Police and Emergency Services and Vice-President of the Executive Council representing the Premier, Treasurer and Minister for Industrial Relations, Minister for Further Education, Training and Employment, and Minister for Ethnic Affairs -
With regard to the Building Industry Task Force (hereinafter the "BITF"):
(1) When:
(a) was the BITF created;
(b) will the BITF cease operations?
(2) Which:
(a) Minister(s) is (are) currently responsible for the BITF's operation;
(b) Department(s) is (are) the BITF connected to, if any?
(3) What are the:
(a) general responsibilities of;
(b) terms of reference of; and
(c) specific tasks allocated to;
the BITF?
(4) What are the:
(a) names;
(b) titles;
(c) functions; and
(d) employment conditions;
of all people directly employed by, or associated with the BITF, respectively?
(5) With regard to the budget to the BITF:
(a) What costs are associated with the BITF;
(b) Will these costs be reported separately in the annual State budget;
(i) If so, in which part of the annual State budget will they be reported;
(ii) If not, why not?
(c) Is the BITF restricted to an operating budget:
(i) If so, what is this budget;
(ii) If not, why not?
Answer -
(1) (a) 30 September 1991
(b) 30 June 1993
(2) (a) - Premier;
- Attorney General (via the Director of Public Prosecutions).
(b) - Premier's Department;
- Attorney General's Department (via the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions);
- New South Wales Police.
(3) (a-c) (i) Investigation and prosecution of suspected criminal offences in the building industry, including those arising out of the Royal Commission. In serious matters involving substantial planning and organisation, the investigation of these offences may include reference to the New South Wales Crime Commission. See First Interim Report of Royal Commissioner Gyles QC.
(ii) Co-ordination and facilitation of the pursuit of civil remedies in the building industry, including protection of participants in the industry from unlawful behaviour and recovery actions by government departments. This function has been given to the BITF further to the Third Interim Report of Royal Commissioner Gyles QC.
Page 7089
(iii) Implementation of those recommendations supported by the Government arising from the Report of the Royal Commission as directed, including advice to Government on legislative change and reporting on the operation of the Industrial Relations Act 1991 in the building industry.
(b) No specific terms of reference.
(4) It is not considered necessary or desirable to reveal the names of Task Force employees, but the attached schedule identifies them by function.
(5) (a) Expenditure for 1991-92 (from 1 October 1991 to 30 June 1992) was $2.8 million.
(b) Yes.
(i) Premier's Department.
(ii) Not applicable.
(c) Yes.
(i) The Revised Premier's Department Budget Estimates for 1992/93 makes provision for $5.2 million, subject to Treasury approval.
(ii) Not applicable.
Building Industry Task Force
Schedule of Establishment
As at 28 July 1992
| ESTABLISHMENT: | NO: | CONDITIONS: |
Position/Function
Director | 1 | Public Sector Management Act |
Operations
Lawyers
Industry Analysts
Financial Analysts
General Analysts
Executive Secretary
Support Officers
Task Force Commander
Chief Investigator
Senior Investigators
Investigators | 3
3
2
3
1
5
1
1
5
7 | Public Sector Management Act |
Administration
Administration Manager
Staff/Accounts Officer
Office Services Manager
Property/Registry Manager
Records Officer
Assistant Property Officer
Support Officer Registry
Data Processing Supervisor
Support Officer Data Entry
Support Officer (Administration)
Telephonist/Receptionist | 1
1
1
1
1
2
1
1
1
1
1 | Public Sector Management Act |
Page 7090
Civil Remedies Task Force
Solicitor seconded from Crown Solicitor
Junior Solicitor
Support Officer (Registry)
Support Officer (CR)
|
1
1
1
1 | Public Sector Management Act |
Temporary Assistance
Financial Analyst
Support Officer (Registry)
Support Officer (Records) | 1
2
1 | Public Sector Management Act |
Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions
Crown Prosecutor
Solicitors from DPP attached to BITF | 1
2 | Crown Prosecutors Act
Public Sector Management Act |
Consultants/Contractors
Information Systems
Legal Services
Investigative Services
Security Services | 2
1
2
1 | Fee for Service |
NORTHERN NEW SOUTH WALES OLD GROWTH FORESTS
Mr Jones asked the Minister for Police and Emergency Services, Minister Assisting the Premier and Vice-President of the Executive Council representing the Premier, and Treasurer -
(1) Have conservation groups identified approximately 30,000 hectares out of the remaining 300,000 hectares of old growth forests in the north of New South Wales as being habitat of high value for endangered species and other native fauna and flora?
(2) Will the Premier negotiate with the Forestry Commission to ensure that the 30,000 hectares are added to our National Parks estate?
(3) If not, why not?
Answer -
(1-3) The Premier is aware that conservation groups have identified some areas of old growth forests in the north of New South Wales as being habitat of high value for endangered species and other native flora and fauna.
In 1990, the Premier announced the Old Growth Forests Strategy which included in it a program for preparation of 14 (now 15) environmental impact statements and a moratorium on logging in 14 separate areas of old growth forest with a total area of some 180,000 hectares. The purpose of the strategy was to chart a middle way between the concerns of the environmental movement and the timber industry's need for secure and
Page 7091
predictable access to timber. This five-year program is the largest and most important environmental assessment program ever undertaken in Australian forestry.
The Forestry Strategy dealt with about 180,000 hectares of the 300,000 proposed for logging. It did not consider the large areas of old growth in the Eden Management Area because it had already been the subject of both State and Commonwealth Environmental Impact Statements. The strategy did not include smaller and generally less contentious areas, the only alternatives while the 14 (now 15) forests in the Strategy were going through the process of environmental assessment.
There are 1.6 million hectares of old growth in State forests compared with 2 million in National Parks. The vast majority of this old growth forest will not be logged.
The purpose of the Forestry Strategy was frustrated by the introduction of the Endangered Fauna (Interim Protection) Act 1991, which amended the Environmental Planning and Assessment Act. Forest operations in old growth forests within the areas comprised in the Forestry Strategy could no longer be authorised for logging by the Forestry Commission. That legislation would have locked up thousands of hectares of legitimate logging land, posing a major threat to the forestry industry as well as to thousands of jobs.
Consequently, the Government introduced the Timber Industry (Interim Protection) Act 1992. This Act provides interim protection for the employment of workers engaged in the logging of certain forests and in the wider timber industry.
It provides for a full and proper environmental assessment to be made of logging operations being carried out or proposed to be carried out in 15 nominated areas of old growth forest as well as giving legislative effect to the moratorium on logging operations in 14 nominated areas of old growth forest until the due examination and consideration of environment impact statements.
It also imposes a logging moratorium on 8 areas being considered for wilderness classification by the National Parks and Wildlife Service.
Environmental Impact Statements will have to be approved by the Minister for Planning. The Forestry Commission will also have to meet conditions set by the EPA and logging will still have to be licensed by the National Parks and Wildlife Service. Environmental Impact Statements will be completed over the next 30 months.
At the end of the program of Environmental Impact Statements, the Government will be in a position to decide which areas of old growth forests should be considered for addition to the National Parks estate.
IMPLEMENTATION OF NATIONAL HIV-AIDS STRATEGY
Mr O'Grady asked the Minister for Police and Emergency Services, Minister Assisting the Premier and Vice-President of the Executive Council representing the Premier, and Treasurer -
(1) Will the Government make a commitment to implement the National HIV/AIDS strategy?
(2) If not, why not?
(3) If so, when?
Answer -
(1-3) The New South Wales Government supports the goals, guiding principles and program objectives of the National HIV/AIDS Strategy.
A commitment to the development of a National Strategy was given by the former Minister for Health, the Hon. Peter Collins, MP, in prefacing the New South Wales Department of Health's response to the Green Paper: "AIDS A TIME TO CARE, A TIME TO ACT", in April 1989.
Page 7092
The Green Paper was followed by the National HIV/AIDS Strategy (White Paper) in August 1989. Since that time the New South Wales Government has been actively involved in the progressive implementation of the Strategy, bearing in mind that many recommendations had already been implemented in New South Wales. Since the time of its release, the National HIV/AIDS Strategy has enjoyed the National Bipartisan co-operation that it called for to combat the spread of HIV infection.
The New South Wales AIDS budget has increased from $2.3 million in 1984/85 to $57.4 million in 1991/92, an increase of 2500%. The State contribution represented more than 50% of the total.
New South Wales has made a significant contribution through its participation in the Intergovernmental Committee on AIDS (IGCA), the body which ensures liaison and co-ordination between the Commonwealth and the States in regard to implementation of the National HIV/AIDS Strategy. As the State with the earliest involvement and the largest caseload (65% of the National total) many policies and practices have necessarily been "pioneered" in New South Wales.
The National HIV/AIDS Strategy is presently being evaluated. New South Wales is again actively involved in this process. The Government is committed to a continuation of a co-ordinated National AIDS Strategy.
TOURISM COMMISSION TRANSPORT AND INFRASTRUCTURE COMMITTEE
Mr Vaughan asked the Minister for School Education and Youth Affairs representing the Minister for State Development and Minister for Tourism -
(1) Has a Transport and Infrastructure Committee been established within the New South Wales Tourism Commission to advise the Minister on the infrastructure needs of the tourism industry?
(2) When was this Committee established?
(3) How many times has this Committee met since its inception?
(4) Who are the members of the Committee and which industry/firms do they represent?
(5) What recommendations has the Committee forwarded to the Minister?
(6) Has the Minister acted on the recommendations?
(7) If so, how has the Minister responded to the recommendations?
Answer -
(1) Yes.
(2) The Committee was established in May, 1991.
(3) Once. Having established commitment at senior level at the first meeting of the Committee to the goals of the New South Wales Tourism Development Strategy and, having identified priorities to the Minister, on-going advice and consultation on the implementation of projects has been undertaken at officer level. The Committee will thus only meet occasionally to provide the Minister with up-dates on transport and infrastructure requirements.
(4) The members of the Committee and the industry/firms they represent are listed below:
Mr Paul Crombie New South Wales Tourism Commission
Mr Cliff Jackson Ansett Transport Industries Ltd
Mr Glen Buckingham Australian Airlines Limited
Mr John Macpherson Building Owners & Managers Association of Australia Limited (BOMA)
Mr John Kelley Bus & Coach Association (New South Wales)
Page 7093
Mr Tony South Colliers Jardine (Tourism Commissioner)
Mr John Austin Federal Airports Corporation
Mr Bevan Coote Hazelton Airlines
Mr Brian Petschler Kiama Municipal Council
Mr Zenon Michniewicz Maritime Services Board
Mr Richard Cox National Roads & Motorists Association (NRMA)
Mrs Gabrielle Kibble Department of Planning
Mr Brian Melloy Property Services Group
Mr Ron Christie Public Works Department
Mr Bernard Fisk Roads & Traffic Authority
Dr John Saunders Department of State Development
Mr Ross Sayers State Rail Authority
Mr Michael Donovan State Transit Authority
Mr Rod Gilmour Department of Transport
Mr lan Neale Treasury Department
Ms Pauline Murphy New South Wales Tourism Commission
Mr Alan McGuigan New South Wales Tourism Commission
(5) The Committee agreed on priorities for attention by the Minister, the Commission and other agencies such as support for completion of the Third Runway at Sydney (Kingsford Smith) Airport, the need for a New South Wales Regional Airports Development Strategy, support and upgrading of the Pacific Highway and support for provision of coach terminal facilities Sydney and country locations.
(6) Yes.
(7) The Minister has requested that the New South Wales Tourism Commission work with the relevant Government and industry agencies to achieve the earliest possible implementation of the priority transport and infrastructure projects discussed by the Committee. The Minister has successfully overseen the development of coach terminal facilities in Sydney and country locations and the completion of the New South Wales Regional Airports Development Strategy. He has strongly supported the development of the third runway, (construction about to commence) and has strongly supported submissions to the Federal Government to increase funding for the up-grading of the Pacific Highway.
TOURISM COMMISSION REPRESENTATION ON INDUSTRY COMMITTEES
Mr Vaughan asked the Minister for School Education and Youth Affairs representing the Minister for State Development and Minister for Tourism -
(1) What representation does the New South Wales Tourism Commission have on the various tourist industry committees?
(2) Which tourist industry committees is the Commission represented on?
(3) How does the Commission advise the tourist industry?
Answer -
(1) The New South Wales Tourism Commission has representation on 22 tourist industry committees.
(2) The New South Wales Tourism Commission is represented on the following tourist industry committees:
- Australian Standing Committee on Tourism
- Australian Tourism Research Committee
Page 7094
- BOMA Hotel and Leisure Properties Committee
- Bureau of Tourism Research Advisory Committee
- Easyreach Promotion Committee
-Hawkesbury Nepean Catchment Management Council Recreation and Tourism Sub-Committee
- Illawarra Regional Organisation of Councils Tourism Signage Sub-Committee
- Interdepartmental Consultative Committee on Cultural Tourism
- Jindabyne Task Force
- Lord Mayor's Promotion of Sydney Forum
- New South Wales Council of Tourist Associations
- New South Wales Tourism Industry Training Committee
- Newell Highway Promotion Committee
- Pacific Asia Travel Association (PATA)
- PATA Pacific Division Steering Committee
- South Coast Tourist Signpost Committee
- Sydney Convention and Visitors Bureau Board
- Tourism Aviation Group
- Tourism Week Steering Committee
- Transport & Infrastructure Committee
- University of New South Wales Hospitality Management Advisory Committee
- University of Technology Sydney Tourism Management Advisory Committee
(3) The New South Wales Tourism Commission has representation on the above Committees in order to provide advice and expertise in areas such as research, planning, policy on transport and other infrastructure development, education and training, marketing and travel information and sales.
TOURISM COMMISSION PLANNING AND DEVELOPMENT DIVISION
Mr Vaughan asked the Minister for School Education and Youth Affairs representing the Minister for State Development and Minister for Tourism -
(1) Does the New South Wales Tourism Commission have a Planning and Development Division?
(2) If so, who are the members of the Division and which Government Departments/Agencies or firms do they represent?
(3) How many times has the Division met since May 1991?
(4) What issues has the Division dealt with since May 1991?
(5) What advice has the Division given the Minister since May 1991?
(6) What Government committees and industry committees do the members of the Division sit on?
Answer -
(1) The New South Wales Tourism Commission no longer has a Planning and Development Division. It has a Policy and Planning Division.
(2) The members of the Policy and Planning Division are staff members of the New South Wales Tourism Commission and do not represent other Government Departments/Agencies.
(3) Not applicable, as the Division is a working unit of the Commission, not a committee.
(4-5) The Division has dealt with issues related to areas such as strategic tourism planning, tourism policy, industry development, research, tourism training, wages and employment and tourism transport and infrastructure, and has provided advice to the Minister on such issues.
Page 7095
(6) Staff of the Policy and Planning Division represent the Commission on the following Government and industry committees:
- Air Transport Council
- Australian Tourism Research Committee
- Badgerys Creek Airport Project Team
- BOMA Hotel & Leisure Properties Committee
- Caravan Parks Technical Advisory Committee
- CBD Signposting Committee
- Coastal Committee
- Fatpac
-Hawkesbury Nepean Catchment Management Council Recreation & Tourism Sub- Committee
- Interstate Rail Committee
- Interdepartmental Committee on Sydney Harbour Islands
- Interdepartmental Consultative Committee on Cultural Tourism
- Jenolan Caves Reserve Trust
- Jindabyne Task Force
- KSA Third Runway Committee
- New South Wales Tourism Industry Training Committee
- PATA Pacific Division Steering Committee
- Sydney Airport Consultative Committee
- Sydney Harbour National Park Advisory Committee
- Sydney Olympics 2000 Accommodation Planning Group
- Third Runway for Kingsford Smith Airport Project Team
- Tourism Aviation Group
- Transport & Infrastructure Committee
- University of New South Wales Hospitality Management Advisory Committee
- Western Sydney Planning & Development Committee
- Youth Hostels Association of New South Wales
ROYAL COMMISSION INTO ABORIGINAL DEATHS IN CUSTODY
Miss Kirkby asked:
(i) The Minister for Police and Emergency Services and Vice-President of the Executive Council -
(ii) The Minister for Planning, Minister for Energy, Minister for State Development, and Minister for Tourism -
(iii) The Minister for School Education and Youth Affairs -
* (iv) The Minister for Health and Community Services -
(v) The Minister for Police and Emergency Services and Vice-President of the Executive Council representing the Premier, Treasurer and Minister for Industrial Relations, Minister for Further Education, Training and Employment, and Minister for Ethnic Affairs -
(vi) The Minister for Police and Emergency Services and Vice-President of the Executive Council representing the Attorney General, Minister for Consumer Affairs, and Minister for Arts -
(vii) The Minister for Police and Emergency Services and Vice-President of the Executive Council representing the Minister for Transport-, and Minister for the Environment-- -
(viii) The Minister for Planning, Minister for Energy, Minister for State Development and Minister for Tourism representing the Deputy Premier, Minister for Public Works, and Minister for Roads -
Page 7096
(ix) The Minister for Planning, Minister for Energy, Minister for State Development, and Minister for Tourism representing the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs -
(x) The Minister for Planning, Minister for Energy, Minister for State Development, and Minister for Tourism representing the Minister for Local Government, and Minister for Cooperatives -
(xi) The Minister for Planning, Minister for Energy, Minister for State Development, and Minister for Tourism representing the Minister for Conservation and Land Management -
(xii) The Minister for Planning, Minister for Energy, Minister for State Development, and Minister for Tourism representing the Minister for Sport, Recreation and Racing and Minister Assisting the Premier -
(xiii) The Minister for School Education and Youth Affairs representing the Minister for Natural Resources -
(xiv) The Minister for School Education and Youth Affairs representing the Chief Secretary and Minister for Administrative Services, and Minister Assisting the Premier on the Status of Women -
(xv) The Minister for Health and Community Services representing the Minister for Housing -
(xvi) The Minister for Health and Community Services representing the Minister for Health Services Management -
(xvii) The Minister for Health and Community Services representing the Minister for Justice -
(1) Have the recommendations of the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody been examined by the Minister and the Ministers' Departments as to any implications arising?
(2) Has your Department addressed the recommendations of the Royal Commission in so far as relevant to the Department?
(3) Has your Department, as a result of any review, changed any of its policies or adopted any new policy?
(4) If any policy has been changed or adopted as a result of the recommendations of the Royal Commission, what are those changes or new policies, and what directions have been given to your Department in relation to such policies?
(5) Are there any internal or public documents setting out the changes that have occurred, and if so, what are they?
Answer - The Minister for Community Services -
(1) The recommendations of the Royal Commission were examined by the Department of Community Services when the Commission's Report was released.
(2) Within the Community Services portfolio, as it then existed, the recommendations of the Royal commission were primarily related to juvenile justice matters. The Office of Juvenile Justice has been transferred to the Corrective Services portfolio. The other recommendations relevant to the Community Services portfolio related to child care, family support and substitute care of children.
(3) The existing policies of the Department of Community Services in child care, family support and substitute care of children were already consistent with the recommendations of the Royal Commission, therefore, no changes have been made as a result of the Commission's Report.
(4) Not applicable.
(5) Not applicable.
Page 7097
EFFECT OF GOVERNMENT POLICIES ON MINORITY CULTURES
Miss Kirkby asked:
(i) The Minister for Police and Emergency Services and Vice-President of the Executive Council -
(ii) The Minister for Planning, Minister for Energy, Minister for State Development, and Minister for Tourism -
(iii) The Minister for School Education and Youth Affairs -
* (iv) The Minister for Health and Community Services -
(v) The Minister for Police and Emergency Services and Vice-President of the Executive Council representing the Premier, Treasurer and Minister for Industrial Relations, Minister for Further Education, Training and Employment, and Minister for Ethnic Affairs -
(vi) The Minister for Police and Emergency Services and Vice-President of the Executive Council representing the Attorney General, Minister for Consumer Affairs, and Minister for Arts -
(vii) The Minister for Police and Emergency Services and Vice-President of the Executive Council representing the Minister for Transport-, and Minister for the Environment-- -
(viii) The Minister for Planning, Minister for Energy, Minister for State Development and Minister for Tourism representing the Deputy Premier, Minister for Public Works, and Minister for Roads -
(ix) The Minister for Planning, Minister for Energy, Minister for State Development, and Minister for Tourism representing the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs -
(x) The Minister for Planning, Minister for Energy, Minister for State Development, and Minister for Tourism representing the Minister for Local Government, and Minister for Cooperatives -
(xi) The Minister for Planning, Minister for Energy, Minister for State Development, and Minister for Tourism representing the Minister for Conservation and Land Management -
(xii) The Minister for Planning, Minister for Energy, Minister for State Development, and Minister for Tourism representing the Minister for Sport, Recreation and Racing and Minister Assisting the Premier -
(xiii) The Minister for School Education and Youth Affairs representing the Minister for Natural Resources -
(xiv) The Minister for School Education and Youth Affairs representing the Chief Secretary and Minister for Administrative Services, and Minister Assisting the Premier on the Status of Women -
(xv) The Minister for Health and Community Services representing the Minister for Housing -
(xvi) The Minister for Health and Community Services representing the Minister for Health Services Management -
(xvii) The Minister for Health and Community Services representing the Minister for Justice -
(1) Has your Department carried out any studies as to the effect of the implementation of Government policies on minority cultures within New South Wales including Aboriginal cultures?
(2) Will you undertake a review of the policies of your Department to include an education programme as to minority cultures, including Aboriginal cultures?
(3) Will you advise as to what policies your Department pursues which are consistent with a multicultural Australia?
Page 7098
(4) Has your Department reviewed its policies in relation to its statutory obligations under the Anti-Discrimination Act and, if so, what policy modifications have been effected, or have been proposed to be effected to accommodate those statutory obligations?
Answer - The Minister for Community Services -
(1) The then Department of Youth and Community Services, in 1978, contracted a consultant to review the accessibility and appropriateness of community service provision to ethnic communities. This resulted in the adoption of a multicultural policy in 1983.
All reviews of policies include considering the impact of those policies on Aboriginal and Non-English speaking background (NESB) communities.
The Department of Community Services has allocated $60,000 for research projects to conduct a casework and outcome evaluation for Aboriginal clients and NESB clients of the Department's Child Protection and Family Work Services. Both projects will involve case file analysis, interviews with caseworkers and interviews with clients. Aboriginal and NESB communities will be involved from an early stage in the management of the project.
(2) The Department's policies and programmes are reviewed regularly. The Department conducts education and training programmes for its staff and these include components of NESB communities and Aboriginal communities.
A full-time Aboriginal Staff Development Officer is employed to develop and conduct both training programmes for Aboriginal staff and cultural awareness courses for non-Aboriginal staff. Initiatives are also undertaken for staff providing services in funded areas, e.g., $282,000 has been allocated to develop training programmes for staff employed in services funded under the Supported Accommodation Assistance Program (SAAP). Five courses for Aboriginal staff will commence in September 1992. Courses for NESB staff are being developed. The package will also include an anti-racism course for staff in generic services.
Several other initiatives have been undertaken in the child protection, substitute care and children's services areas including the development of audio-visual and written resource materials.
(3) The legislation, which governs the Department's functions, the Care and Protection Act 1987, includes in its objectives "to ensure the provision, to the maximum extent possible, of services for and assistance to persons disadvantaged because of ..... vi) there being members of an ethnic group which had adequate access to services and resource available in the community" and "to promote the welfare of Aborigines on the basis of a recognition of Aboriginal culture and identity; Aboriginal community structures; Aboriginal community standards, the rights of Aborigines to raise and protect their own children and the rights of Aboriginals to be involved in the decision-making process that affects them and their children".
The Department of Community Services also adopted an Ethnic Affairs Policy Statement in 1987 which contained detailed strategies aimed at enshrining multicultural principles in departmental practice. This policy is being reviewed with a view to developing a strategic EAPS approach to 1994. The Department has developed a draft Aboriginal policy.
(4) Yes. Since the introduction of the Anti-Discrimination Act, and later amendments to the Act to include Equal Employment Opportunity (EEO) provisions, the Department of Community Services has produced a Racial Harassment Policy and an EEO Policy. These were revised and updated in 1992. Strategies, including training, have been put in place to ensure that clients and staff are treated in accordance with the Anti-Discrimination Act.
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ANTI-DISCRIMINATION BOARD REPORT ON HIV-AIDS
Mr O'Grady asked the Minister for Police and Emergency Services and Vice-President of the Executive Council representing the Attorney General, Minister for Consumer Affairs and Minister for Arts -
(1) Does the Minister accept the finding of the Anti-Discrimination Board's Report "Discrimination - The Other Epidemic" that, as presently written, the Anti-Discrimination Act is inadequate to deal with HIV/AIDS-related discrimination?
(2) Has the Minister directed that the 16 provisions contained in Recommendation 68 be implemented as soon as possible?
(3) If not, why not?
Answer -
(1) The Anti-Discrimination Board accepts complaints from persons on the basis of HIV/AIDS-related discrimination on the basis of the grounds of discrimination presently available in the Act. They are on the basis of physical impairment and homosexuality or assumed homosexuality.
The Report draws attention to a possible gap in coverage where a person tests HIV positive but has no other physical symptoms. In these circumstances the Equal Opportunity Tribunal or Court of Appeal may, if a respondent argued lack of jurisdiction, be asked to determine the issue. This circumstance has not yet arisen and as a consequence it cannot be said with certainty that the provisions are "inadequate". However, to alleviate any possible doubt, my predecessor indicated that the Act would be amended to ensure that the provisions of the Act are clarified to ensure that persons with HIV who are asymptomatic are covered. I am currently giving consideration to the proposal along with other proposed amendments to the impairment provisions of the Anti-Discrimination Act
I also note that I have established a Ministerial Committee an HIV\AIDS discrimination to evaluate and report to me upon the implementation of the Report. The Committee, which is chaired by Mr Christopher Puplick, includes representatives from HIV/AIDS organisations and the gay and lesbian community.
(2) I have directed that legislative proposals be prepared for my consideration in respect of each of the proposal reforms contained in Recommendation 68.
(3) See (2).