JOINT ESTIMATES COMMITTEES
Mr WHELAN (Ashfield - Minister for Police) [12.56 p.m.]: I move:
(1) That notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the standing orders, the following joint estimates committees be appointed:
Estimates Committee No. 1
1. Premier, Arts and Ethnic Affairs
2. Education and Training
4. Treasury, State Development
Estimates Committee No. 2
1. Health, Aboriginal Affairs
2. Community Services, Ageing, Disability Services and Women
3. Agriculture, Land and Water Conservation
4. Mineral Resources, Fisheries
5. Regional Development and Rural Affairs
Estimates Committee No. 3
2. Corrective Services, Energy, Tourism
3. Attorney General, Industrial Relations
4. Fair Trading and Emergency Services
Estimates Committee No. 4
2. Public Works and Services
3. Gaming and Racing, Hunter Development
Estimates Committee No. 5
1. Urban Affairs and Planning, Housing
3. Information Technology, Forestry and Ports
(2) The budget estimates and related documents representing the amounts to be appropriated from the Consolidated Fund be referred to the committees for inquiry and report.
(3) 1. Each committee is to consist of nine members, comprising:
(a) five members from the Legislative Assembly, being three from the Government nominated by the Leader of the House, one from the Opposition nominated by the Opposition Whip and one Independent, nominated by the Opposition Whip;
(b) four Members from the Legislative Council, being two from the Government nominated by the Government Whip, one from the Opposition nominated by the Opposition Whip and one member of the crossbench, nominated by the Opposition Whip.
2. Nominations for Legislative Assembly members of the committees shall be made to the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly and nominations for Legislative Council members of the committees shall be made to the Clerk of the Legislative Council, within seven days of the passing of this resolution by both Houses.
3. (a) Government or Opposition members of the relevant House may be appointed to the committees as substitutes for a member of the committees for any matter before the committees, by notice in writing by the relevant Leader of the Government, Leader of the House, Leader of the Opposition, Government or Opposition Whips or Deputy Whips.
(b) Crossbench or Independent members may be appointed to the committees as substitutes for another crossbench or Independent member of the committees, provided they are of the same House as the member to be substituted, for any matter before the committees. Notice in writing of the substitute member, which is to
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be determined by agreement between the members themselves, can be made by any of the crossbench or Independent members provided that the others are in agreement.
(c) In the event that no crossbench or Independent member wishes to be appointed to a committee, the Leader of the Opposition or Opposition Whip or Deputy Whip can nominate a member to fill the position.
4. That the chair of a committee have a deliberative vote and in the event of an equality of votes a casting vote.
5. The chairs of the five estimates committees will be nominated in writing to the Clerks by the Leader of the House in the Legislative Assembly.
6. (a) A chair may from time to time appoint another Government member to act as deputy chair and the member so appointed is to act as chair when the chair is not present at a meeting of a committee.
(b) In the event of absence of both the chair and the deputy chair, a Government member of the committee is to be elected by the members present to act as chair for that meeting.
7. The committees have power to send for and examine persons, papers, records and things.
8. The quorum of the committee is five members, provided that a member from each House is present.
9. The proceedings of the committees are open to the public unless otherwise ordered by a committee.
10. (a) The times, dates and places for meetings of each committee are to be set out in a schedule provided by the Clerks of both Houses to members of each committee.
(b) A committee may hold meetings supplementary to those set out in the schedule.
11. A committee may examine:
(a) each program area in the budget estimates and related documents by portfolio; and
(b) by portfolio, expenditure or income of any statutory body or corporation appointed, constituted or regulated under an Act of Parliament:
(i) which the Minister for the time being administers, and under which the statutory body or corporation is appointed, constituted or regulated; or
(ii) which is required to submit an annual report to the Parliament, either under the Act appointing, constituting or regulating the statutory body or corporation or under the Annual Reports (Statutory Bodies) Act 1984.
12. In an estimates committee:
(a) the chair is to call over each program area and declare the proposed expenditure open for examination;
(b) members may question Ministers, and through Ministers, officers of any department of Government, statutory body or corporation, relating to each program area, or where possible, proposed income or expenditure or other relevant matter in each program area; and
(c) a question is to be proposed for each program area "that the amount be recommended".
13. The time allocations for questions in each committee be three hours for each Minister’s portfolio areas with total times for questions allocated in the following order:
30 minutes Opposition
30 minutes Government
30 minutes Crossbench and Independent
30 minutes Opposition
30 minutes Government
30 minutes Crossbench and Independent.
14. Any Minister present to answer questions may have staff present to assist him or her during the hearing of evidence and may refer to those staff at any time.
15. A daily record of the proceedings of a committee is to be published by Hansard.
16. (a) Before an estimates committee hearing, members or substitute members of a committee may provide written questions to the clerk of the committee who will then distribute them to the relevant Minister and to members of the committee. Answers to these questions may be supplied in writing to the committee clerk prior to the hearing or tabled at a hearing.
(b) Nothing in this paragraph prevents a member from asking questions at an estimates committee hearing.
17. Where a Minister indicates that a reply or supplementary information will be given in response to a question asked, a written answer must be lodged with the clerk of the committee within seven days. The clerk of the committee is to publish in an estimates committee questions and answers paper the information requested and the reply.
18. The report of each committee is to state whether the amounts of each program area in the estimates are recommended.
19. (1) The committees are to report to the House prior to the consideration by the committee of the Whole House of the relevant bills, after which the committees will expire.
(2) Where a committee fails to report in the time required under subparagraph (1), the amount for each program area is deemed to be recommended by the committee.
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20. The reports from the committees will be received by the House without debate and their consideration deferred until consideration of the Appropriation Bill and cognate bills.
21. In Committee of the Whole House when considering the amounts for each program area in the estimates and the corresponding clauses and schedules in the Appropriation Bill and cognate bills:
(a) the chair is to put the question in respect of each corresponding committee report, "That the report of (name of the committee) be adopted"; and
(b) any remaining clauses and schedules of the Appropriation Bill and cognate bills are to be considered as one question, "That the remaining clauses and schedules of the bills be agreed to".
22. At the conclusion of proceedings in Committee of the Whole, the chair is to report to the House that the committee has or has not adopted the reports from the estimates committees.
23. (a) If the House is not sitting when a committee wishes to report to the House, the committee is to present its report to the Clerk.
(b) A report presented to the Clerk is:
(i) on presentation, and for all purposes, deemed to have been laid before the House;
(ii) to be printed by authority of the Clerk;
(iii) for all purposes, deemed to be a document published by order or under the authority of the House; and
(iv) to be recorded in the Votes and Proceedings of the Legislative Assembly and Minutes of Proceedings of the Legislative Council.
Mr HARTCHER (Gosford) [12.57 p.m.], by leave: I move the following amendments in globo:
Omit the paragraph, insert instead:
Six members of the Legislative Assembly, being three from the Government nominated by the Leader of the House, two from the Opposition nominated by the Opposition Whip and one Independent nominated by the Opposition Whip.
Omit the paragraph, insert instead:
The chairs of the five estimates committees will be elected by secret ballot by the committee at its first meeting.
Omit the paragraph, insert instead:
The proceedings of the committee are open to the media and to the public.
At the end of the paragraph add:
Any time allocated but not used by crossbench and Independent members may be used by the Opposition.
The time allocated for questions shall not commence until all preliminary matters relating to the establishment of the committee have been completed.
No. 5 After clause (3)23, add:
24. The proceedings of the committee may be recorded by video and audio recording equipment.
I am conscious of the hour. I congratulate the Government on finally agreeing to hold joint estimates committees. The Opposition has been trying to do this for three years. It is the Government -
Mr Whelan: What!
Mr HARTCHER: Does the Minister want the same debate once again? Every year the Government has precluded joint estimates committees. Every year the Opposition has asked that a reasonable proposal be addressed, but the Government has not been prepared to address it. Finally, a reasonable joint estimates proposal has been put before the House. That motion would be greatly improved if the House were to adopt the Opposition’s amendments, which are very simple. Amendment 3 will open the proceedings of the committee to the media and the public. I should have thought any government would agree to that amendment, but this Government will not. Amendment 2 will enable the committee to select its own chairperson. How extraordinary that a parliamentary committee should elect its own chair! The Government is not prepared to agree to the amendment.
Ms Moore: That is democratic.
Mr HARTCHER: The honourable member for Bligh correctly points out that it is democratic, which is clearly the reason the Government is not prepared to agree to it. Amendment 4 states that time allocated for questions shall not commence until all preliminary matters have been dealt with. The committees take a lot of time establishing themselves, setting up formal rules and working out who will do what. Those processes eat into allocated time, and that is exactly what has happened every
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year. Surely on that technical matter the Leader of the House and the Government would be prepared to make a concession and agree to the amendment.
Mr Whelan: I have fixed that. It will be done in the upper House.
Mr HARTCHER: I am sure that the assurance of the Leader of the House, that it will be done in the upper House, was noted by Hansard. The Opposition will accept that assurance. On that basis the Opposition will not move a vote on the individual amendments. Finally, the Opposition seeks to have six members from the Legislative Assembly on each committee instead of five and that the coalition, instead of being allowed only one member, be allowed two. That is not an exceptional request. The Minister is saying that out of the 40-odd members in the lower House we will have only one Opposition member on each committee and the three Independents will also have one representative. There is no equality there. We are not asking the Government to reduce the Independents’ representation. We respect and acknowledge that, as we always have. We are asking that the Opposition have at least two members on each committee. I would not have thought that any of these amendments was too difficult to grasp. However, for some reason, the Government is not prepared to abide by them and the Opposition insists upon them.
Dr MACDONALD (Manly) [1.02 p.m.]: During the years 1991 to 1995 there was a move towards returning control of Executive Government to the Parliament. One factor in that move was the establishment of estimates committees. Estimates committees represent the thinnest edge of a wedge which the Parliament can drive into the budgetary process and the expenditure and revenue process. I support the motion moved by the Leader of the House. However, he has nothing to fear from the amendments moved by the Opposition. They will only improve the committee process. I support allowing additional Opposition members to sit on the estimates committees. Why not? What does the Government have to fear? If the Government is confident about its numbers it does not matter whether or not the chairmen of estimates committees hold secret ballots. Clearly, it is improper to establish beforehand the chairmanship of these committees.
I am pleased that the Government is opening up these estimates committees to accountability and scrutiny by the media and the public and that it is ensuring that they are properly recorded through the use of video and audio equipment. A good and confident government should have nothing to fear from the proper scrutiny of its budgetary process. Each year the budget is debated in this House on a number of evenings over a period of about two months. In fact, in 1996 and 1997 the average time taken to debate the budget was 50 hours. We have a limited window of opportunity to debate the budget. The Auditor-General, in his paper "The Challenge of Change", advocated the establishment of permanent standing committees to cover the gamut of government activity, each committee having responsibility for legislation, estimates and the reports of relevant agencies. The Auditor-General is advising us to open up this process over the whole year. On 29 June 1996 I prepared a discussion paper - I will not go into the detail of that paper now - which I circulated to members, that recommended the establishment of an expenditure and revenue committee. We are being denied almost any access to the budget, which I see as a core role of members of Parliament.
Mr O’FARRELL (Northcott) [1.04 p.m.]: In a week in which many Australians are expressing sorrow on a range of issues this House should express its sorrow to you, Mr Speaker. I well remember in the period immediately after the 1995 election when you were sworn in as Speaker you gave a far-reaching interview to the
Sun-Herald in which you promised to establish effective estimates committees in this Parliament. You said that that would be a hallmark of the period you presided over this Chamber. This motion goes nowhere near fulfilling the promise you made to the people of New South Wales prior to your ascension to your important office. For that the Leader of the House should be condemned or, at the very least, he should say he is sorry. I wish now to refer to the size of these estimates committees. Clearly, it is a nonsense that the committees be structured in the way proposed by the Government. Each committee is to comprise nine members. As the honourable member for Manly said, that would allow for only one member of the Opposition from this Chamber. The Minister has structured the committees in such a way that there are five members from this House and four members from the upper House. I simply remind honourable members -
Mr BECKROGE (Broken Hill) [1.05 p.m.]: I move:
That the question be now put.
The House divided.
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Ayes, 47
Ms Allan Mr McManus
Mr Amery Mr Markham
Mr Anderson Mr Martin
Ms Andrews Ms Meagher
Mr Aquilina Mr Mills
Mrs Beamer Mr Moss
Mr Carr Mr Neilly
Mr Clough Ms Nori
Mr Crittenden Mr E. T. Page
Mr Debus Mr Price
Mr Face Dr Refshauge
Mr Gaudry Mr Rumble
Mr Gibson Mr Scully
Mrs Grusovin Mr Shedden
Ms Hall Mr Stewart
Mr Harrison Mr Sullivan
Ms Harrison Mr Tripodi
Mr Hunter Mr Watkins
Mr Iemma Mr Whelan
Mr Knowles Mr Woods
Mr Langton Mr Yeadon
Mrs Lo Po’
Tellers,
Mr Lynch Mr Beckroge
Mr McBride Mr Thompson
Noes, 43
Mr Beck Mr O’Doherty
Mr Blackmore Mr O’Farrell
Mr Brogden Mr D. L. Page
Mr Chappell Mr Peacocke
Mrs Chikarovski Mr Phillips
Mr Cochran Mr Richardson
Mr Cruickshank Mr Rixon
Mr Debnam Mr Schipp
Mr Ellis Mr Schultz
Ms Ficarra Ms Seaton
Mr Glachan Mrs Skinner
Mr Hartcher Mr Slack-Smith
Mr Hazzard Mr Small
Mr Humpherson Mr Smith
Mr Jeffery Mr Souris
Dr Kernohan Mr Tink
Mr Kinross Mr J. H. Turner
Mr MacCarthy Mr R. W. Turner
Dr Macdonald Mr Windsor
Mr Merton
Tellers,
Ms Moore Mr Fraser
Mr Oakeshott Mr Kerr
Pairs
Mr Knight Mr Armstrong
Mr Nagle Mr Collins
Mr Rogan Mr Rozzoli
Question so resolved in the affirmative.
Amendments 4 and 5, by leave, withdrawn.
Question - That amendments Nos 1, 2 and 3 be agreed to - put.
The House divided.
Ayes, 43
Mr Beck Mr O’Doherty
Mr Blackmore Mr O’Farrell
Mr Brogden Mr D. L. Page
Mr Chappell Mr Peacocke
Mrs Chikarovski Mr Phillips
Mr Cochran Mr Richardson
Mr Cruickshank Mr Rixon
Mr Debnam Mr Schipp
Mr Ellis Mr Schultz
Ms Ficarra Ms Seaton
Mr Glachan Mrs Skinner
Mr Hartcher Mr Slack-Smith
Mr Hazzard Mr Small
Mr Humpherson Mr Smith
Mr Jeffery Mr Souris
Dr Kernohan Mr Tink
Mr Kinross Mr J. H. Turner
Mr MacCarthy Mr R. W. Turner
Dr Macdonald Mr Windsor
Mr Merton
Tellers,
Ms Moore Mr Fraser
Mr Oakeshott Mr Kerr
Noes, 47
Ms Allan Mr McManus
Mr Amery Mr Markham
Mr Anderson Mr Martin
Ms Andrews Ms Meagher
Mr Aquilina Mr Mills
Mrs Beamer Mr Moss
Mr Carr Mr Neilly
Mr Clough Ms Nori
Mr Crittenden Mr E. T. Page
Mr Debus Mr Price
Mr Face Dr Refshauge
Mr Gaudry Mr Rumble
Mr Gibson Mr Scully
Mrs Grusovin Mr Shedden
Ms Hall Mr Stewart
Mr Harrison Mr Sullivan
Ms Harrison Mr Tripodi
Mr Hunter Mr Watkins
Mr Iemma Mr Whelan
Mr Knowles Mr Woods
Mr Langton Mr Yeadon
Mrs Lo Po’
Tellers,
Mr Lynch Mr Beckroge
Mr McBride Mr Thompson
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Pairs
Mr Armstrong Mr Knight
Mr Collins Mr Nagle
Mr Rozzoli Mr Rogan
Question so resolved in the negative.
Amendments negatived.
Motion agreed to.
Message sent to the Legislative Council advising it of the resolution.
[
Mr Speaker left the chair at 1.15 p.m. The House resumed at 2.15 p.m.]