The Hon. Virginia Chadwick The Hon. J. Kaldis
The Hon. I. Cohen The Hon. M. R. Kersten
The Hon. Jennifer Gardiner The Hon. E. M. Obeid
The Hon. Dr Marlene Goldsmith The Hon. Janelle Saffin
The Hon. R. S. L. Jones



The Hon. B. J. Langton, Minister for Transport, and Minister for Tourism

Department of Transport
Mr A. Coutts, Director-General
Mr I. Robinson, Executive Director, Commercial Policy

State Rail
Mr G. Messiter, Chief Executive Officer

State Transit
Mr L. Di Bartolomeo, Chief Executive

Tourism New South Wales
Mr A. Thirlwell, Chief Executive and General Manager
Ms C. Shankey, Manager, Financial Services

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CHAIR: I declare open the Estimates Committee for Transport and Tourism. I propose that questions be allocated on the following basis: Government members 20 minutes, Opposition members 20 minutes and crossbench members 20 minutes.

Motion by the Hon. M. R. Kersten agreed to:

That, in accordance with the Resolution of the Legislative Council of 11 October 1994, the Committee authorises the sound and television broadcasting, as appropriate, of its public proceedings, unless otherwise ordered.

The Hon. E. M. OBEID: My question relates to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 649, the line item referring to the capital program, and in particular the line item referring to acquisition of property, plant and equipment. Could the Minister indicate the nature and scope of investigations into the extension of the Ultimo-Pyrmont light rail project to be undertaken using those funds?

Mr LANGTON: As I am sure honourable members would be aware, the Government is investigating the feasibility of proposed extensions of the Ultimo-Pyrmont light rail project. It is being done jointly with the Sydney Light Rail Company. These investigations cover the potential for extensions to both the inner west and also through the central business district of Sydney. The proposed western extension would use the existing underused freight line from Pyrmont to Marion Street, Leichhardt, and reuse of this existing asset could build on the ability of the core project to spur regeneration in Ultimo-Pyrmont, revitalise additional areas and improve public transport through a key region of Sydney. This is consistent with the Government's objective of using underutilised urban freight lines for passenger services.

Six potential routes for the central Sydney extension from Central Railway to Circular Quay have been evaluated. A detailed assessment of the preferred route, which is a Pitt Street-Castlereagh Street loop, is now under way. A wide range of investigations has been completed for the inner-west route. These include studies covering technical, environmental, cost, patronage, economic benefits, plus land survey and financial analysis. From these studies a two-stage development of the western extension looks more feasible. Stage 1 would take light rail as far as Catherine Street, Lilyfield and Stage 2 would take it beyond that to Leichhardt.

Now that a preferred route for the central business district extension has been identified, a similar range of studies is being undertaken. Acknowledging the specific issues relating to this proposal, the issues being assessed include technical feasibility, demand study, economic appraisal, traffic study, urban design study, land survey and financial analysis. These studies are well under way and will be completed very soon. The key aspect of the Government's investigations into this extension has been community consultations with key interests. All owners and occupiers of properties along the proposed CBD route were invited to a series of information sessions which covered the project, the technology and its impacts and benefits.

In this process, as well as the evaluation of the CBD extension, the Government has been working closely with Sydney City Council in developing this concept. Once the studies for both extension proposals are complete, they will be used as the basis for commercial evaluation by the Government and the Sydney Light Rail Company. It is expected the Government will consider the results of the studies and their evaluation early next year. In the current budget $2 million has been allocated within the Department of Transport's capital works budget for investigations. To date approximately $1.25 million has been committed. This continuing allocation demonstrates the Government's commitment to promoting light rail as a transport option. The funds committed under this budget will also ensure that the extensions are given every opportunity to go ahead and build on the benefits of the core project, the Ultimo-Pyrmont light rail project.

The Hon. J. KALDIS: My question relates to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 652, the line item referring to the capital program. The line item shows that the department will spend $14.7 million for the acquisition of property, plant and equipment. Will the Minister please explain how much of these funds are related to the replacement of the dilapidated wharf at Meadowbank?

Mr LANGTON: It is an important project and one which the Government recognises as crucial to the development of decent ferry services right around Sydney, up and down the harbour and on the Parramatta River. The Meadowbank wharf and associated bus interchange is a ferry stop on what has become a very popular route from Sydney to Parramatta. It also serves as an important commuter pick-up point for workers coming to both the CBD and North Sydney. A design for the new pontoon ferry wharf, bus interchange, waiting area and commuter car park has been developed, maintaining the architectural theme for the Parramatta River established at Huntleys Point and also at Chiswick wharf. A development application has been approved by Ryde City Council for the project and, following the settlement of a minor land issue, work will commence. The Government has committed $250,000 in the current budget and the balance of the funding is programmed for the 1996-97 financial year.

The Hon. JANELLE SAFFIN: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 652. The line item referring to the capital program states that the Department of Transport will spend more than $14 million on the acquisition of property, plant and equipment. Will the Minister please explain how much of the funds relate to the commencement of the new bus-rail interchange at Liverpool?

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Mr LANGTON: The Government has allocated $300,000 in the current budget for the work at Liverpool and has also precommitted funds in both the 1996-97 and 1997-98 budgets to complete the work. The Department of Transport and CityRail have been working closely together in designing a fully integrated bus-rail interchange and station complex at Liverpool. The concept design addresses the pedestrian conflict prevalent in the existing interchange, and also addresses the after-hours safety issues which have been expressed by local women's groups. A development application for the project will be placed before Liverpool City Council prior to Christmas and, when that application has been approved, work will commence as quickly as possible. The design concept resembles the facilities which honourable members might be aware have recently been completed at Blacktown, the Blacktown bus-rail interchange. That will provide passengers with safe waiting areas, full disabled access and a bus-only interchange, removing the conflicts which presently exist between cars and buses and also pedestrians and buses.

The Hon. E. M. OBEID: I refer the Minister to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 652. The line item referring to the capital program states that the department will spend $14.701 million on the acquisition of property, plant and equipment. Could the Minister please explain how much of these funds relate to the completion of the Blacktown bus-rail interchange?

Mr LANGTON: In the current budget an amount of $1.557 million is included for funding of the completion of the project at Blacktown. Portion of that funding is to make final payment for the project to the contractor in accordance with the original scope of works. Since the opening of the project on 29 July, however, it has been decided to amplify the access for people with disabilities, elderly people and parents with young children, from the interchange to the station. The Department of Transport has authorised its contractor to install four additional lifts, for which the balance of the funds will be required. Three lifts will operate from the bus bays to the elevated walkway, and one lift will operate from the bus set-down area to the station concourse. It is anticipated that the contract for that work will be 46 weeks, based on a 26-week lead time. It acknowledges that to have a complete bus-rail interchange there is a need for accessibility to the station concourse and also to the bus interchange itself. That is being done now by the department.

The Hon. J. KALDIS: I refer the Minister to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 652, subprogram 65.1.1. Under the line item capital program is a statement that the department will spend $14.7 million for the acquisition of property, plant and equipment. Could the Minister explain what work is to be carried out with that funding, and what is the source of those funds?

Mr LANGTON: I will answer the second part of the question first. The combined source of the funds for the $14.7 million allocation is about $4 million from the Consolidated Fund, with the balance of $10.7 million to come from the parking space levy. As honourable members would be aware, that levy was introduced a couple of years ago on parking spaces provided in the Sydney central business district, North Sydney and other adjacent areas. We expect about $10 million this year from those funds.

A total of $6 million has been allocated in the current year for some works that are in progress. Those works include upgrading work to the existing interchange at Katoomba station; the new bus-rail interchange at Liverpool, which has been mentioned previously; a new commuter car park at Hornsby station with 410 spaces, work on which is scheduled for completion by the end of the current calendar year; upgrading of the wharf facilities at Parramatta, which work is scheduled for completion by March next year; reconstruction of the Meadowbank wharf and interchange facilities, which were also mentioned earlier; and completion of the major project at Blacktown including, as I have mentioned, the installation of the four additional lifts.

Also, $5 million is allocated for new works in the current budget. They include the upgrading of the Cabramatta interchange and car park, in order to create a safer environment; expansion of the Wyong interchange, to cope with the increased population growth on the central coast; upgrading of the bus-rail interchange at Ashfield, and dealing with council's concerns over the possible conflict with that interchange; a new interchange at Woy Woy, again to cope with demands made by increased population growth on the central coast; and construction of a multistorey commuter car park at Minto and one at Padstow. A further $3.7 million has been allocated in the current year for minor work and annual provisions, including $738,000 for non-urban transport, $500,000 for bus priority measures and $135,000 for minor local transport infrastructure projects.

The Hon. JANELLE SAFFIN: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 653, regarding assistance to the State Rail Authority to implement its reform program, and in particular SRA capital grants under subprogram 65.2.1. What can existing and future train travellers expect to see as a result of the $370.693 million expenditure in this area?

Mr LANGTON: I noticed in a weekend newspaper reference to some $200 million for this matter. Try as I might, I could not make sense of the article, even after a thorough reading of it. I then tried to find a reference to the same figure in the budget papers. It did not exist. In fact, as the honourable member quite correctly points out, the figure is $370.693 million. The Government is keen to expand the metropolitan rail system to better
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cater for present and future needs and demands and to promote the system as a safe and reliable transport mode that is also friendly to the environment.

The SRA has a total non-commercial capital works program this current year of $696 million. Capital projects within that $696 million amount to $471 million, of which $371 million is funded through the budget, with the balance being funded through other sources. The bulk of the $100 million difference between $371 million and $471 million is coming from SRA reserves. Within the budget funding is $166 million being allocated to growth projects. This funding includes work for only part of the new southern line. The balance is to go to other major works.

The $60 million Merrylands-Harris Park Y-link project, to be completed by October next year, will connect with the southern line to the north of Merrylands station, and to the main western line south of Harris Park station. In the current budget the Government has allocated $27 million. There will be no longer a need to change trains at Granville when travelling between the south and the west. That project will increase the flexibility of the CityRail network and cater for existing and future demand for rail travel between Sydney's growth areas in the western region and the south-west region. The project will provide additional tracks between Turrella and Riverwood, thereby providing increased capacity in line with increased demand for commuter services in the south, in the growth areas of Campbelltown and Macarthur.

Our Government is committed to the amplification of the Richmond line. Work will include extension of the crossing loopline at Clarendon, and duplication of the line between Blacktown and Marayong. Amplification of the Richmond line is essential to cater for the expected increase in demand for services from the north-west sector, and will allow higher frequency rail services to and from those developing areas. In the current budget we have allocated an amount of $1 million for commencement of the project, which is expected to be completed in the 1997-98 financial year.

Granville-Lidcombe-Strathfield-Central track and infrastructure are being upgraded to allow more all-station and more express services between Liverpool, Parramatta and the city, to honour a specific election commitment. Work on the new southern railway line will continue. It is certainly not the only component of our growth program, however. I am sure that honourable members would be aware that the new southern line will go from Central to the airport, and that it will include four new stations and will link in with the East Hills line and Turrella. It will ease traffic congestion on other city railway lines and open the way for major urban renewal in some of the city's oldest industrial suburbs.

The Hon. E. M. OBEID: My question refers to the safe stations program. I refer the Minister to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, subprogram 65.2.2, Purchase of Passenger and Freight Transport Services, page 655, line item SRA CityRail services. I refer also to subprogram 65.2.1, Assistance to SRA to Implement its Reform Program, page 653, line item State Rail Authority - capital grants. I refer also to Budget Paper No. 4, SRA non-commercial capital program, page 99, CityRail On Train Passenger Security Initiatives; and page 100, Passenger Security Initiatives at Stations. How have the priorities for those initiatives been determined?

Mr LANGTON: I think all honourable members would be aware that the Government's safe stations program has been Labor's policy since 1989. The recent announcement I made on our program covering 62 stations represents a major step forward in the Government's bid to improve security and restore public confidence in the rail system. Work already has begun on providing the enhanced facilities, including closed-circuit television and help points, at a total cost of $6.354 million. Thirty stations will be equipped with closed-circuit television facilities by the end of February 1996, and the remainder are scheduled for completion by the end of 1996.

A key feature of each safe station will be a guaranteed staff presence from the first to the last train. It is quite evident that rail customers feel more secure when they know staff are on hand to provide assistance should the need arise. Staff throughout the network are being trained in all aspects of customer service to improve CityRail's performance in that very vital area of safety. Stationmasters also are receiving management training. This will result in a better team effort by station staff to meet customer needs. The safe stations will also have closed-circuit television surveillance, platform customer help points, intense lighting that will extend to adjacent car parks and bus stops, and other enhancements as determined by the recent safety audit of all 169 suburban railway stations.

Safe stations will receive regular train services after the evening peak, with a small number of frequently used inner city safe stations having some through services to provide shorter evening journey times for longer distance passengers. The stations are being selected on the basis of important factors, including their distribution across the network, proximity to other transport modes, security risk factors, existing and future easy access facilities, and staff presence. Included in the safe station program is a comprehensive $2.25 million property upgrade at Cabramatta station. This station was the subject of a New South Wales police crime prevention audit earlier this year. This Government is moving to implement the recommendations of that audit. The 62 stations which will be included in that safe station program first of all include those which will be included with closed-circuit television
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facilities by February next year. I think it is worth putting those on record. They are Auburn, Blacktown, Bondi Junction, Cabramatta, Campbelltown, Chatswood, Cronulla, Epping, Gosford, Granville, Hornsby, Hurstville, Kings Cross, Kogarah, Lidcombe, Liverpool, Marrickville, Martin Place -

[Time expired.]

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: I refer the Minister to page 4-116 of Budget Paper No. 2. Minister, I refer to your statement on 19 April this year, reported by Linda Morris of the Sydney Morning Herald, that "If anything, I would like to think we are going to attract so many more people back to public transport. There will be new job opportunities." As you gave an assurance that job losses at the lower echelons of SRA had come to a halt, how can you reconcile this with the provision of $70 million for staff redundancies with over a thousand jobs to go?

Mr LANGTON: There will be no forced redundancies within the State Rail Authority - a clear commitment of the Government. As honourable members may be aware, soon after the election the Council on the Cost of Government had a look at the operations of the State Rail Authority and identified within the State Rail Authority a number of positions, particularly at corporate level, which may be redundant under the reform process. Obviously, if the recommendations of the Council on the Cost of Government, together with the implementation of the Government's announced reforms, reveal a need to remove duplication at corporate level, then there needs to be an allocation within the budget to cover those redundancies.

The Hon. M. R. KERSTEN: I refer the Minister to Budget Paper No. 2, page 4-118. The Government has allocated $3.5 million to reintroduce a regular rail passenger service between Broken Hill and Sydney via the Riverina. In yesterday's Sun-Herald there was a report of statements by you and the mayor of Broken Hill. You said that there are no trains available and you do not know where you will get one. Can you explain how you propose to obtain a train? Where will you get it and when can it be expected?

Mr LANGTON: The budget papers state quite clearly that the promised services to Griffith and Broken Hill will be implemented in March of next year, and we stick by that. It would have been a lot easier if the previous Government had not embarked on a program of destruction of rail, destruction of rolling stock and destruction of decent carriages which had been used up until fairly recent times on the Murwillumbah and Brisbane services and also on the Melbourne service. In opposition and shortly after the election we were given assurances that those carriages were still available for use. However, we were deceived. It was a shame to see that good rolling stock destroyed or flogged off. However, regardless of that and regardless of the destruction wrought upon the public transport system by the previous Government, we are determined to rebuild it. We will. We will honour our election commitments. As the budget papers say, it will be in March next year.

The Hon. M. R. KERSTEN: Mr Chairman, I do not know whether it is in order, but I am not satisfied with the answer.

CHAIR: You may ask another question.

The Hon. M. R. KERSTEN: Minister, I have asked where you will get the train and how you propose to do that. I do not think that the answer you have given has satisfactorily answered the question.

Mr LANGTON: I have answered the question, Mr Chairman.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: I refer the Minister to Budget Paper No. 2, page 4-118 and Budget Paper No. 4, page 100 and the allocation for safety in the CityRail network. How can you justify including $2.25 million to be spent, as it should be, on Cabramatta station when it more properly belongs in the station upgrading program? Is not the vast bulk of the financial allocation to Cabramatta for the bus and rail interchange and the new commuter car park? How much is left for safety projects?

Mr LANGTON: Could you repeat that question?

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: How can you justify -

Mr LANGTON: No, the whole question. You referred to 4-118.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: And Budget Paper -

Mr LANGTON: So what line on 4-118 are you referring to?

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: On page 4-118 we have dot points listing specifics and -

Mr LANGTON: Which particular line are you talking about?

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: I think I have the wrong page. I will sit on that question, Mr Chairman. I will withdraw that question and ask a general question. I refer the Minister to Budget Paper No. 4, pages 98, 99 and 100 and the station upgrading program. Does this allocation include an allocation for Cabramatta and, if so, how much?

Mr LANGTON: As I answered in the previous question, $2.25 million.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: When the $2.25 million allocation for Cabramatta is deducted from what your briefing notes prepared by the Department of Transport say is an overall
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$3 million allocation, does this not leave only $750,000 to be spent across the entire network? Is this the same as the previous coalition allocation of $700,000 in real terms? Is not, therefore, your promise to include safety just lip-service?

Mr LANGTON: That is an imaginative reading of the budget papers. In fact, the $3.5 million which is allocated in the budget is additional to that which had been previously allocated. We have a clear commitment to improve safety on Sydney's railway stations. We will achieve that with the additional $3.5 million which has been allocated and the safe stations program which I have announced covering 62 stations on the CityRail network will be implemented. And let me say that that is a program which was not considered by the previous Government.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: I ask a supplementary question. If it is additional, could I have a reference to where the original funding is listed separately?

Mr LANGTON: I will take that on notice.

The Hon. M. R. KERSTEN: I refer the Minister to Budget Paper No. 2, page 4-118 and Budget Paper No. 4, page 100 and the allocation to improve the safety of the CityRail network. Will you make publicly available the station safety audit?

Mr LANGTON: Mr Chairman, I do not think that has anything to do with the budget.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: I refer the Minister to Budget Paper No. 2, page 4-113 and the school student transport scheme. You will recall your assurance to Parliament that there will be no loss of route services or school bus services following your savage cuts to the scheme, and your subsequent claim that operators are required by their contracts under the Passenger Transport Act 1990 to maintain a minimum level of service. Does not the Department of Transport briefing note for your House folder say, "If an operator holding a commercial contract considers that services can no longer be provided on a commercial basis then the operator can surrender the contract"? Subsequently, as non-commercial contract subsidies have been an available option, how much if anything has been allocated for this financial support?

Mr LANGTON: Mr Chairman, we could spend some time going through an explanation of the Passenger Transport Act of 1990 but I feel that the time would be wasted because I can only explain; I cannot bestow the gift of understanding - but let me try anyway. There are commercial and there are non-commercial contracts. Commercial contracts are those which are normally entered into on normal route services. A minimum level of service is required at a maximum fare level. Up till now the existing operators have been given the option of accepting the contracts or not. Most have chosen to sign the contract. If for any reason there is any change in circumstances which render a service non-commercial, under the terms of the legislation the contract would have to be surrendered and government would have to consider whether there would be the need to enter into a non-commercial contract.

That would be a last resort, however, because there is a great deal of expertise available within the Department of Transport to assist operators to ensure that services continue to be provided - whether it be by looking at timetables, or at the way routes are determined. That is a form of expert advice which has always been available from the Department of Transport. As far as I am aware, it has always resulted in the retention of all services. Let me say very clearly: this Government is committed to ensuring that nobody is disadvantaged in terms of having access to public transport. We will ensure that is the case. I do not believe that there is the need for the Government to rush into any discussions relating to the issue of non-commercial contracts. The assistance which is available from the Department of Transport I believe will ensure that all services continue to be provided.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: I have a supplementary question. Your reference to timetables and routes I take it is a reference to cutting services because the adjustment to timetables and routes, if you have a lowering of demand for the service, means those services will be cut.

Mr LANGTON: Could you explain your line item for that question?

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: This is a supplementary question so it is the same line item. If you would like me to -

Mr LANGTON: Show me the line item. I have already given you great assistance by answering the question, which did not refer to a line item - but keep going anyhow.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: Budget Paper No. 2, page 4-113, school student transport scheme.

Mr LANGTON: What does that have to do with route services?

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: You mentioned the route services in your answer and you said that there were ways of dealing with the problem such as adjustments to route services. I am concerned that they will mean that services will be cut.

CHAIR: Minister, I cannot see the line item for this.

Mr LANGTON: Can I answer that by saying that I confirm my previous answer which said that I can only explain; I cannot confer the gift of understanding.

Page 2549

The Hon. M. R. KERSTEN: I refer the Minister to Budget Paper No. 4, pages 98 to 100, which refer to station upgrading and the easy access program. Why have you cut this vital program from last year's $11.096 million to $10.66 million this year? Is this not a cut of $1 million in real terms?

Mr LANGTON: I will get the exact figures back to you but let me say that the funds come from a number of areas and a number of projects. I think probably the most important thing to point out is that whereas in the past a lot of these projects have been funded from consolidated revenue and from the parking space levy, in addition this current financial year there is a third source of funds, the 3 x 3 levy. Members will be aware of legislation which went through the House in the autumn session of Parliament which expanded the criteria for the expenditure of 3 x 3 funding to include public transport related road projects. In fact, some of the projects which are being funded from that 3 x 3 money are included in the roads budget and not in the Department of Transport budget. The total amount being spent this year for easy access alone I believe is $13.2 million and the spending on major station upgrades is $22.6 million. But I will get a complete breakdown. It is a massive increase on last year. I will get the exact details back to you.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: I refer the Minister to pages 98 to 100 of Budget Paper No. 4. I note that listed are completed coalition works at Sutherland, Circular Quay, Gosford, Wyong, Hurstville, Pennant Hills and Blacktown and coalition works currently under way at Sydney terminal, St Marys, Campbelltown, Strathfield, Hornsby, Epping, Westmead and Kogarah stations. What new programs will this include?

Mr LANGTON: What new programs will what include?

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: What new programs will this include for the State Rail Authority - works in progress and new works?

CHAIR: The Minister may wish to take that extensive question on notice.

Mr LANGTON: I am happy to provide a full list of those works. If you refer to page 98 you will see that there is a list of new works, which will include various works on the Sydney underground - for example, at Edgecliff. I will get a full list of the projects for you. It is an extensive list.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: I am asking about new works subsequent to the works introduced and announced by the coalition.

The Hon. M. R. KERSTEN: Given your election promise to fast-track a program to -

CHAIR: What is the line item?

The Hon. M. R. KERSTEN: I am referring to Budget Paper No. 4, at pages 98 to 100. During the election campaign the Labor Party promised to fast-track a program to reconstruct railway stations to provide for wheelchair access. How is this promise reconciled with the Department of Transport's briefing paper which reveals this to be a 20-year objective?

Mr LANGTON: What line item are you referring to?

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: Budget Paper No. 4, pages 98 through to 100.

Mr LANGTON: They are pages; I am looking for a line item.

CHAIR: Technically, questions should relate to Budget Paper No. 3.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: Not necessarily, Mr Chairman.

CHAIR: Yes, absolutely. What line item are you referring to, Mr Kersten?

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: It is with reference to easy access, Sydney terminal, new works, which is the second item on page 98. There are others, of course, but we can take that as a starter, Mr Chairman.

CHAIR: Mr Kersten, are you asking a question from page 98 about easy access, Sydney terminal?

The Hon. M. R. KERSTEN: Yes. I apologise for my newness to these matters.

[Time expired.]

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 650. The program objective is "To meet the transport needs of the New South Wales community in an optimal way, balancing social and economic objectives." Do you think it is appropriate from a whole-of-government approach to separate transport from roads? Is it not a fact that roads have been given excessive priority over public transport at a time when public concern is rising on the harmful environmental effects of car-caused air pollution? Do you believe that they should be combined into one?

Mr LANGTON: With the greatest of respect, that is not a budget question. I would be happy to provide an answer for you if you ask that question in the upper House. It is not a budget item.

The Hon. I. COHEN: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, page 650, program 65.1, line item activities. Can the average staff number of six in the Transport Safety Bureau for 1995-96 achieve the effective operation of program objectives?

Mr LANGTON: Yes, it can. I am pleased to receive a question on the Transport Safety Bureau, which did not exist prior to this Government coming to power. Under the former Government there
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existed the rail safety directorate within the Department of Transport, which simply looked at the physical safety of the rolling stock and the -

CHAIR: I advise Mr Photios that there is a rule about talking to Committee members at the table. He should communicate through the attendant.

Mr LANGTON: As I was saying, the rail safety directorate looked at the physical safety of the rolling stock and the track upon which it ran. Honouring an election commitment, the Labor Party formed the Transport Safety Bureau within the Department of Transport. The bureau looks at the physical safety of the rolling stock and the track, and also all forms of public transport, public and private buses, ferries and taxis. It also looks at the safety of people who travel on those modes of transport. The Transport Safety Bureau has the ability to second people from the State Transit Authority, both buses and ferries, and CityRail to assist it in developing programs for the safety of people and the physical rolling stock and track. The work that has already been done in a short period of time by the Transport Safety Bureau shows that it is an extremely effective, active and professional group within the Department of Transport. The work the bureau has done shows that it has been, is, and will continue to be an effective group within the department. There will be measurable improvement in the safety of passengers and rolling stock as a result.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: I refer to Budget Paper No. 2, page 4-114. The average subsidy to CityRail per passenger trip - that is, all trips, including concessions - fell by 17.3 per cent in 1994-95 compared with 1993-94. How much cash was collected at CityRail barriers in 1994-95? How much cash was collected at the end point of passenger journeys? What security is in place to ensure that all the cash is actually banked? How much has revenue increased as a result of the implementation of the autoticketing machines?

Mr LANGTON: That is a good question, which I am happy to take on notice.

The Hon. I. COHEN: I refer to page 650, line item grants and subsidies to community groups and certain individuals. Will the Minister explain why only $860,000 was spent in this area in 1994-95 when $2 million was allocated? On what basis are such grants and subsidies provided? What areas and/or objectives will receive priority in 1995-96?

Mr LANGTON: The $2 million for community groups and certain individuals was an excellent program introduced by the former Minister. Basically, the money was allocated to rail heritage groups. A couple of weeks ago I had the pleasure of opening some facilities at the Sydney Tramway Museum, Loftus, which had been constructed as a direct result of some of the grants of $2 million. That museum received approximately $250,000. I also had the pleasure of inspecting some of the work by 3801 Limited and the rail museum at Thirlmere. Only $860,000 was spent out of the $2 million allocation because some of the work was not completed prior to the end of the financial year. To ensure that no-one will be disadvantaged we have carried over the expenditure into the current year. The heritage groups which expected to receive grants will receive them.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: I refer to Budget Paper No. 4, page 98. You mentioned that the light rail system will be extended. Will you confirm whether it will be extended to Circular Quay and when, as proposed by the light rail association?

Mr LANGTON: No, I cannot. As I explained earlier, there are three projects. The first is from Central to Ultimo-Pyrmont and the contract has already been signed. I indicated that we are looking at two other projects, one is the western extension to Lilyfield and Leichhardt and the other is the Sydney central business district. I also indicated that feasibility studies are taking place on both of those projects. There is a long way to go before anybody can say that that will definitely happen or put a time frame on it. The momentum is there. It is a good opportunity to make sure that all aspects of feasibility are fully canvassed. That is what is happening at the moment.

The Hon. I. COHEN: I refer to page 650. I refer to the program objective and description as outlined under subprogram 65.1.1. Why are there no output measures for transport safety, an extended public transport network, the use of public transport by passenger groups defined in terms of geography and equity, an integration of bus, ferry and train network with cyclists, with passengers with bicycles and passengers with strollers?

Mr LANGTON: Are you talking about the program description and objective?

The Hon. I. COHEN: Yes.

Mr LANGTON: I do not necessarily think it is a bad idea to have specific targets for some of the things you mentioned. Any government should have targets and objectives in terms of accessibility and increasing patronage. I will be happy to look at that for inclusion in future budget papers so that the Government and the community can measure their success in this regard.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 653, and to the line items operating losses - SRA CityRail services, operating losses - SRA CountryLink services. What was the total amount of overtime paid to SRA staff during 1994-95? What has been estimated to be the total amount of overtime required to be paid this year?

CHAIR: The Minister can take that question on notice if he so desires.

Mr LANGTON: I am happy to provide the details on notice. We are acutely aware of that issue and we are working on it. I will get the Hon. R. S. L. Jones the exact figures.

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The Hon. I. COHEN: I refer to page 654, program 65.2. The budget announced changes in the school student transport scheme with the eligible distance for high school students increasing from 1.6 kilometres to two kilometres. This is estimated to save $100 million in a full year. Has the Minister determined the cost of providing travel for metropolitan children to private schools outside their local area? What is this cost? Has the Minister determined the cost of maintaining the 1.6 kilometre distance, but limiting its entitlement under a means test to people receiving some form of social security assistance? What is this cost?

Mr LANGTON: The changes to the scheme which have been announced are very clear. From 1996 for high school students the eligibility criterion will be extended from 1.6 kilometres to two kilometres; for primary school children, the 1.6 kilometre distance will remain; for infants there will continue to be no limit in terms of radius from the school attended. From 1997 a cap will be put on the Government contribution of $450 per student per annum. That compares with the average cost per eligible student for 1994-95 of $445 for each child. It is an increase over the 1995 figure. A range of options was considered to arrest the blow-out in the cost of the school student scheme. The decision reached is equitable, just and right. It is right in terms of government, taxpayers, education policy, and also in determining a clear policy which everyone understands and upon which people can make intelligent decisions. The specific question asked for numbers and costs. I do not have all those figures with me, and I will take a look at the total question. If we can provide figures on any specific questions, I am happy to look at those and provide them as appropriate.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: I refer to Budget Paper No. 4, page 97, which refers to Trains Control Systems. Regarding the proposed signalling control centre in Queen Street, is it correct that State Rail leased a building in Queen Street near Central station some years ago as a temporary signalling control centre? For how long was the lease, when does it expire, what is the cost per annum, how much money has been spent to date in fitting out the proposed control centre building, and is the centre useable without the train describer system?

Mr LANGTON: Excellent questions. I have some of that information available, but to give a comprehensive answer I would prefer to take the questions on notice. I am happy to provide all the details I have available.

The Hon. I. COHEN: I refer to page 654 of the Budget Estimates under program 65.2. The Government has stated that it intends to fund the installation of secure bicycle lockers and racks at public transport interchanges during the current fiscal year. What amount will be funded for the installation of that program, to promote and market the initiative to the public, to formulate in conjunction with local councils local feeder networks to improve safe access to the transport interchanges by bicycles?

Mr LANGTON: I do not have at my fingertips the exact figure for the bicycle lockers. I will provide it for the honourable member.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: Under Train Management Systems, on page 97 of Budget Paper No. 4, I refer to the Muswellbrook resignalling and remote control project. What was the initial contract time scale and completion date, what is the current projected time scale and completion date, and what are the reasons for the delays, if any? What was the original value of the -

Mr LANGTON: With the greatest respect, Mr Chairman, we are talking about dollars within the budget in this Committee, not broad policy issues.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: They are very specific questions.

Mr LANGTON: I know, and that is the problem. I am happy to answer these questions in the proper forum, but this Committee is about dollars.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: If the Minister is unable to answer the questions now, they can go on notice.

Mr LANGTON: They are not budget questions, with the greatest respect.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: They are definitely budget questions. They refer to the $28 million.

Mr LANGTON: I have given enormous leeway here today, Mr Chairman, but that is it.

CHAIR: I do not think that the Hon. R. S. L. Jones has read the manual on the Estimates Committee procedure. I will provide a copy so he can look at it.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: I have been to a number of Estimates Committee meetings, and I have never had a problem before. The fact that the Minister is unable to answer the questions is another matter. These are very important questions. These are budget questions. If the Minister has something to hide that is another matter.

CHAIR: The honourable member can put the questions on notice at any time.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: I can place them as budget estimates questions on notice.

The Hon. I. COHEN: The Government was elected on a policy to incorporate bicycle storage on all new rail rolling stock, and include such storage in updating existing equipment. How much will be provided for the fitting of bicycle storage during upgrades of interurban, electric rolling stock programs, and to increase the bicycle carrying capacity on Endeavour trains?

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Mr LANGTON: To which line item does the member refer?

The Hon. I. COHEN: I refer to page 654 of Budget Paper No. 3, and program 65.2.

Mr LANGTON: Which line item is about bicycles?

CHAIR: I am having difficulty relating this program to bicycles, unless we will subsidise the riding of bicycles to schools!

The Hon. I. COHEN: I will pass on that question.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: I refer once more to page 97 of Budget Paper No. 4 and the Train Control Systems. If the Minister is unable to answer my previous question, can he let me know how much has been allocated in this year's budget to the NTN Australasia Proprietary Limited resignalling and remote control project?

Mr LANGTON: I am happy to provide that information on notice.

The Hon. I. COHEN: The following questions relate to page 31 of the State Rail Authority annual report for the year 1994-95.

Mr LANGTON: Oh, come on!

CHAIR: That is permissible.

The Hon. I. COHEN: The annual report refers to the State Rail's "genuine concern" to protect the environment. Does the SRA have a comprehensive tree planting schedule and program for greening its depots? If so, how many staff are employed to implement these strategies, and is this sufficient? If a tree planting schedule exists, does it include the planting of a variety of native tree and shrub species particular to the environment in which they will be planted?

Mr LANGTON: Mr Chairman, am I required to answer questions about types of trees?

The Hon. I. COHEN: Do you have such a program?

Mr LANGTON: I will take the question on notice. I have trouble identifying roses.

The Hon. I. COHEN: It is a general question, actually. The Minister should know the difference between roses and native species.

Mr LANGTON: I am not a horticulturist, I am sorry.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: I refer to page 97 of Budget Paper No. 4 and to Train Control Systems. What has been forecast in the budget for 1995-96 for the Tarana-Wallerawang resignalling and remote control project? What was the original contract time scale and completion date, what is the current time scale and completion date, and what are the reasons for the delays? What was the original value of the funds approved for the project, and how much has been spent on the project to date, including payments to the contractors and State Rail's costs? What are the reasons for the overexpenditure on the project?

Mr LANGTON: Under normal circumstances I would take that question on notice; however, the question relates to SRA commercial, which means it is an off-budget authority.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: So it is too difficult to answer?

Mr LANGTON: I am happy to answer questions in that regard in the appropriate forum. We are talking here about budget items and dollars.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: We are talking about public money.

Mr LANGTON: We are talking also about budget items. SRA commercial is off-budget. It is as simple as that.

[Short adjournment]

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: I refer the Minister to Budget Paper No. 2, page 4-6, table 4.3, which indicates the current expenditure areas. I note that of all government areas listed in that graph the biggest spending decline is in transport and communication. To what extent is this as a result of efficiency measures introduced by the previous Government, noting that public transport usage increased substantially during the term of the previous Government? To what extent is this due to the savage cost increases introduced by this Government?

CHAIR: I note that this question does not refer to the appropriate budget papers. It is up to the Minister to determine the way in which he wishes to handle the question.

Mr LANGTON: My understanding is that we are considering Budget Paper No. 3, not No. 2.

CHAIR: That is correct.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: I then refer the Minister to Budget Paper No. 3, which refers to the overall expenditure in this area. I refer to agency number 65 on page 647 and the recurrent services, and capital works and services references. This relates to all of the expenditure of the department.

Mr LANGTON: Is there a question?

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: Would the Minister like me to ask the question again?

Mr LANGTON: Yes, please.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: I have given the line items under agency number 65 on page 647 of Budget Paper No. 3. I would also like the Minister to glance at graph 4.3 on page 4-6 of Budget Paper No. 2, which indicates that the Minister's department has the biggest decline in
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spending in all areas. To what extent is this reduction a result of efficiency measures introduced by the previous Government, noting that public transport usage increased substantially under the previous Government, and to what extent is it due to savage cost increases by the current Government?

Mr LANGTON: I will take the question on notice, Mr Chairman. In doing so I make one observation, that contrary to the assertion in the argumentative question, the last State Rail Authority annual report showed that between 1988 and 1994 there was a decline in CityRail services of 8 million passenger journeys, not an increase as suggested by the honourable member. The rest of the question I will take on notice and answer as appropriate.

The Hon. M. R. KERSTEN: I refer the Minister to Budget Paper No. 2, page 5-76, which refers to the so-called expansion of CityRail services including stations. As your Department of Transport briefing papers note, the budget allocation -

CHAIR: Mr Kersten, are you aware that, again, your question does not sit within the guidelines.

The Hon. M. R. KERSTEN: I am advised that Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 647, refers to it.

CHAIR: Which line item in Budget Paper No. 3?

The Hon. M. R. KERSTEN: The whole allocation.

CHAIR: Which line item are you talking about?

The Hon. M. R. KERSTEN: The line items under agency number 65 on page 647. As your Department of Transport briefing papers note, the budget allocation for this year is $234 million.

CHAIR: That is from where, Mr Kersten?

The Hon. M. R. KERSTEN: From the expansion of CityRail services, $234 million.

Mr LANGTON: What line item; where is the $234 million?

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: That is a particular reference. If I may make a point of clarification, Mr Chairman.

CHAIR: Do you want to take a point of order?

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: Not a point of order, just a point of clarification.

CHAIR: You may continue, Dr Goldsmith.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: The reference from the Minister's own briefing notes -

Mr LANGTON: I thought we were talking about the budget, not my briefing notes.

CHAIR: No point of clarification is involved.

The Hon. M. R. KERSTEN: I will pass on that question.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: I draw the Minister's attention again to Budget Paper No. 3, page 647 and again agency number 65, the line item recurrent services. I draw the Minister's attention to that item because I note that nowhere else in the budget paper is there a specific reference to the spokeswomen's program in the State Rail Authority. That is an important program for the advancement and development of opportunity for women in the SRA, which traditionally has had some structural barriers to the advancement of women. I ask the Minister what will be the future of the spokeswomen's program? Will it have a future? What allocation has been made to it?

Mr LANGTON: I will take the question on notice and answer it if appropriate.

The Hon. M. R. KERSTEN: I believe Dr Goldsmith has more questions.

CHAIR: So you wish to pass?

The Hon. M. R. KERSTEN: I wish to pass at this stage.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: I am making a note of the question that I have to write down at the same time that I am asking questions. This is a less than efficient system.

Mr LANGTON: It is your system.

CHAIR: Mr Kersten had the opportunity to help you out there, and he passed.

The Hon. M. R. KERSTEN: I am obviously inexperienced in these matters. Mr Chairman, you obviously had some fun with that.

CHAIR: No, I have not had any fun.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: I refer the Minister again to Budget Paper No. 3, page 647, agency number 65, referring to the whole Department of Transport, recurrent services. There is also a further reference and I draw the Minister's attention to Budget Paper No. 2, page 4-7, fifth line. There is a reference to "reduced subsidies to the State transit authorities".

Mr LANGTON: I cannot see that quote.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: That is page 4-7, count down to line 5.

Mr LANGTON: Yes, I have done that.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: "reduced subsidies to the State transport authorities".

Mr LANGTON: That was not the quote you gave earlier; you said "State transit authorities".

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: The conversion to pedantry appears to be a new development on the part of the Minister. I
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apologise, Minister, if I was less than clear. Reduced subsidies to the State transport authorities. Is the Minister aware that usage of public transport correlates inversely to costs, that massively increasing fares, as this Government is doing, will drive many people away from public transport, and that such decline in use will have to result in service reduction and/or massive increases in public subsidies to pay for infrastructure that must be funded regardless of the level of usage.

CHAIR: That is a speech. Minister, do you wish to comment?

Mr LANGTON: I am happy to answer questions that relate to the budget but this is all policy stuff which is not related to line items in the budget. Where is the line item which relates to increased fares, I am sorry?

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: Clearly, it relates to the whole area of the Department of Transport, particularly funding for public transport. So it is agency number 65.

Mr LANGTON: Which line item relates to massive increases in fares?

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: There are massive increases in fares. Is the Minister denying that there are massive increases in fares?

Mr LANGTON: I am happy to deny that, on the record. Which one are you referring to?

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: Right across the board. We have had quite a number of fare increases announced already.

Mr LANGTON: Which ones, can you give me details?

CHAIR: I will ask Mr Kersten to ask the next question.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: Are you ruling me out of order, Mr Chairman?

CHAIR: You are having a conversation across the table, which is not appropriate. You asked the question but it is not for you to debate it publicly in here.

The Hon. M. R. KERSTEN: I refer the Minister to Budget Paper No. 2, page 4-118, the allocation to safety on the CityRail network. As your briefing notes confirm, uniformed private security guards recently commenced patrols on trains and stations. How many are employed and how much does the program cost? Will the $1.5 million be for security guards or police?

CHAIR: Mr Kersten, what line item in Budget Paper No. 3 does this refer to?

The Hon. M. R. KERSTEN: Additional staff to implement the Government's safe stations initiatives.

Mr LANGTON: Which was the line item in Budget Paper No. 3?

The Hon. M. R. KERSTEN: Page 4-118, the dot point additional staff to implement the Government's safe stations initiatives.

Mr LANGTON: That is Budget Paper No. 2.

The Hon. M. R. KERSTEN: My apologies, Budget Paper No. 3, page 647, agency number 65, recurrent services.

Mr LANGTON: Mr Chairman, there is no line item in Budget Paper No. 3 which relates to the matter raised by the honourable member.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: I am disappointed that the Minister takes that view about safety.

CHAIR: Dr Goldsmith, it is not for you to make comments. It is for you to ask questions.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: Again, I advert to the questions previously asked and ruled in order regarding improved safety of the CityRail network that you would recall, Mr Chairman.

CHAIR: I did not rule them in order, Dr Goldsmith.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: You did not rule them out of order, Mr Chairman.

CHAIR: That is more accurate.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: Following on from the previous precedent, I ask the Minister about the improved safety of the CityRail network, and whether he will make publicly available the station safety audit?

Mr LANGTON: Which line item are you referring to?

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: It is in general terms. The line item to which I have previously referred on page 647, agency number 65, recurrent services and capital works, as this would involve both of them.

CHAIR: What is the question?

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: It refers to station safety. Will the Minister make publicly available the station safety audit?

Mr LANGTON: I am looking for the line item which talks about station safety in Budget Paper No. 3.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: That is the general reference in Budget Paper No. 3. There are specific references and I draw the Minister's attention to Budget Paper No. 2, page 4-118 and Budget Paper No. 4, page 100. Those pages contain specific references. There is no specific reference in Budget Paper No. 3 and I draw the attention of the Minister and the Chairman to the index for Budget Paper No. 3. Station safety
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is not referred to in the index for Budget Paper No. 3. I take it, therefore, that station safety is not specifically referred to in Budget Paper No. 3. If the Minister has no concern about safety on the CityRail network and would prefer not to answer the question, I am sure that those present would draw their own conclusions from that, or is safety ruled out of order in these questions?

Mr LANGTON: The question has nothing to do with the budget. Is the Hon. Dr Marlene Goldsmith asking whether I would make public a report?

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: Yes, the station safety audit.

Mr LANGTON: A report is not part of the budget.

CHAIR: That is correct, Minister.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: I would again refer to station safety and my concern that it is not referred to - we have street safety and all sorts of other safety referring to other portfolio numbers, but there is nothing about station safety in the index to Budget Paper No. 3 - but, Mr Chair, if you are going to rule me out of order for asking questions about station safety, I clearly cannot ask the question I intended to ask. I would have to state with a great deal of concern that I feel that the debate is being unfairly limited by the restriction to Budget Paper No. 3, considering that a number of important issues are not adverted to specifically in Budget Paper No. 3. I would like to ask the Minister what are his plans to improve safety on the CityRail network.

Mr LANGTON: I am happy to provide Dr Goldsmith with the same information I provided earlier to Mr Obeid, who asked a question about the safe station program.

CHAIR: Perhaps the Minister should read it for Dr Goldsmith.

Mr LANGTON: I shall reiterate the answer I gave to Mr Obeid earlier today. The Government has implemented an election commitment to introduce the safe station program and is proceeding with that. I indicated that there will be some 30 stations completely equipped with closed-circuit television by February 1996 and that the remaining 32 stations will be equipped with closed-circuit television by the end of 1996. As the honourable member would know, the Government has already moved to implement its commitment to increase transit police numbers, employ private security guards, ensure that there are staff at safe stations while trains are operating, introduce floodlighting and patrols and establish help points at those stations. Over the whole rail system the Government is ensuring that there is not only safety for passengers but also the perception for safety. I am not sure what information I can provide to the Hon. Dr Marlene Goldsmith that has not already been provided to the Committee.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: I refer the Minister to page 655 of Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, and draw his attention to subprogram 65.2.2 and operating statement, STA bus and ferry services. The actual expenditure on STA bus and ferry services in 1994-95 was $152,356,000. In the coming year that will be reduced to $134,936,000. Where will the reduction come from, if there is not to be a cut in services?

Mr LANGTON: I understand that the Opposition gave no notice of questions on the State Transit Authority and therefore any questions on that authority are out of order.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: What?

Mr LANGTON: They are your rules, not mine.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: I refer the Minister to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 647, capital works and services, and to Budget Paper No. 4, page 97. How much is in this year's budget for the Sydney, Strathfield and Sydenham train describer and telemetry systems? How much of the original lump-sum contract of $13,317,076 still remains? How much of that sum is written off? Why is it that six years after the original contract a usable train describer system has not been produced from the specifications in question, and when can we expect the production of such a system?

Mr LANGTON: I am happy to take those questions on notice. This is an important issue. I am sure that all honourable members would be aware that I have been raising this question in both Parliament and the public domain for six years. I have had great concern about a whole range of matters relating to signalling. I am certainly happy to provide the honourable member with the information he has sought.

The Hon. I. COHEN: My question refers to the income and expenditure statement on page 34 of the State Rail Authority annual report for the year ended 30 June 1994. Has any provision been made for the expenditure of funds to improve the integration of bicycle use with the State Rail network? If so, how much; if not, why not?

Mr LANGTON: The answer is yes, money has been provided. The exact quantum of the money I will provide for the honourable member. I assure the Committee that this Government is committed to ensuring that all people have access to public transport and to ensuring as far as possible the provision of seamless travel. Whether people want to ride their pushbike to a railway station to catch a train, or want safe and secure commuter car parking, the Government is going to make sure that those basic facilities are provided. The honourable member has already alluded to this Government's program of providing secure bicycle storage at railway stations. I have indicated that I will provide details on that. I put on the record the
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Government's appreciation of the cooperation and assistance received from Bicycle New South Wales in that regard. I have also undertaken to provide the honourable member with details and costings of the Government's program for ensuring that there is storage for bicycles on trains, particularly CountryLink trains. I am happy to take the question on notice, but again I put on record the Government's commitment to ensuring that no matter how people travel to a railway station they will have increased availability and access to public transport.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: I note from Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, at page 650 that the number of ministerial staff has increased from 10 to 13. How does the Minister explain that?

Mr LANGTON: I wish I could. All I know is that I have only 10 on my staff. I do not know why the figure of 13 was entered into the budget papers, but I assure the honourable member that I have only 10 on my staff.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: So that is a misprint?

Mr LANGTON: I think that I am permitted to have 13 staff, but in fact I have only 10.

CHAIR: That is a great commitment to preventing waste.

Mr LANGTON: That is fiscal responsibility, Mr Chair.

The Hon. I. COHEN: I refer the Committee to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, at page 651, line item retained revenue. Could the Minister explain why an increase in income for minor user charges of approximately 50 per cent is expected for the 1995-96 year? Could the Minister provide details of the grants from government sector agencies, including which government agencies provide the grants and what amounts they provide?

Mr LANGTON: I understand that the answer to the first part of the question relates to payments for accreditation of railway operators. I will take on notice the part of the question relating to grants from government sector agencies and will provide full details for the honourable member.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 648, line item other operating expenses. Is it a fact that there was a blow-out in legal costs in the past financial year? How much was spent on legal costs, and how much is predicted to be spent this financial year?

Mr LANGTON: Is that for the Department of Transport?

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: For the State Rail Authority specifically.

Mr LANGTON: I am happy to provide the information when it is available. This is a specific question relating to an item not listed individually. Again, all honourable members would know of the concerns I have been expressing for some time about the blow-out in the legal costs of the State Rail Authority. The out-sourcing of legal services by the State Rail Authority resulted in a blow-out in costs of some hundreds per cent. The issue is of concern to me. I do not have with me the exact figures for the State Rail Authority, but I shall provide that information to the honourable member.

The Hon. I. COHEN: I refer again to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, at page 651, line item retained revenue. Can the Minister explain why some $2.1 million was received in grants from other organisations in 1994-95 when none was expected, and why some $770,000 was received in the area titled "Other" in 1994-95 when none was expected?

Mr LANGTON: I do not seem to be able to locate that information at the moment.

CHAIR: If there are some questions that the Minister would like to answer later, perhaps towards the end of the session, they could be answered in the next round of questions.

Mr LANGTON: Thank you.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: I refer the Minister to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, at page 648. Can the Minister give me an estimated cost of work-related stress leave in the past financial year and the estimated cost in this financial year? How many actual employees took work-related stress leave as at 23 October 1995?

Mr LANGTON: I shall take that question on notice.

The Hon. I. COHEN: My question relates to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 650, program 65.1, program objectives: "To meet the transport needs of the New South Wales community in an optimal way, balancing social and economic objectives". Is there an option for the resumption of local rail transport linking Byron Bay, Murwillumbah, Mullumbimby and Lismore?

Mr LANGTON: The Government is always keen to explore any avenues for increasing public transport services right around New South Wales. I am sure that the State Rail Authority, particularly CountryLink, would be happy to take that issue on board, although I would be surprised if it had not done so already. I am happy to give the honourable member a commitment that the matter will be considered.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: I refer the Minister to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, at page 648. How many SES-grade personnel are employed by the State Rail Authority, and how many of them are women?

Mr LANGTON: In 1994-95 the State Rail Authority had 85 staff compared with 92 positions, and for 1995-96 the estimated number of SES positions is 59. I do not have the breakdown of the number of women. Mr Messiter may have that.

Page 2557

Mr MESSITER: No, I do not have it.

Mr LANGTON: I will try to get that information for the honourable member before this session is concluded.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: My question relates to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 654, the line item referring to the school student transport scheme. Given that school students can retain their right to free school transport by choosing to attend a school outside the Government's two kilometre radius, can the Minister explain how he will achieve a 65,427 cut in the number of beneficiaries in 1996, and the contingent major saving of $100 million per annum by 1997? In the event that these targets are met and payments to private operators are greatly reduced, where does the budget allocate additional funds to subsidise the regional services which private operators will no longer be able to provide? Is the Minister aware of any intention to increase family allowance payments to support the new cost of $200 per person for transporting a child to school?

Mr LANGTON: I think there were about eight questions involved, Mr Chairman, most of them subjective and not related to any line item of the budget. The matters which relate to line items have already been answered.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: My question relates to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 648. Will the Minister give an estimate of the total amount paid in workers compensation to State Rail Authority staff in 1994-95 and the estimate of the amount to be paid in 1995-96?

Mr LANGTON: I will take that question on notice. I refer to an earlier question by the Hon. R. S. L. Jones regarding the number of women in the State Emergency Service and State Rail Authority. I understand that the number is seven.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: My question relates to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 647 under the line item for capital works and services. What amount of money is provided in the budget for the proposed rail link to the northern beaches?

Mr LANGTON: Is the honourable member speaking about capital works?

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: Capital works and services, page 647 of Volume 2 of Budget Paper No. 3.

Mr LANGTON: Is the honourable member looking for a line item relating to the northern beaches?

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: I am quoting the line item for capital works and services on page 647.

Mr LANGTON: Would the honourable member repeat his question?

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: How much is allocated in the budget for the light or heavy rail link to the northern beaches?

Mr LANGTON: I am sure that honourable members would be aware that the Government gave an extension of time for the section 22 committee to complete its work of looking at all the different options for the Warringah transport project. My understanding is that the section 22 committee has assessed a range of options against five key objectives. After narrowing down the number of options from 48 - which included heavy rail, light rail, road, tunnels and improvements to bus services - six options were selected. Those six options included two conventional rail, one light rail, one bus tunnel and two road bus tunnels. It is correct to say that there has been a great deal of public support for a rail-based option. It appears that economic studies have shown that none of the six short-listed options can be economically justified without a significant population increase on the peninsula.

I am aware that that is a matter of some discussion on the Warringah peninsula, in relation to the capacity of the area to take additional population. The Government will look at the recommendations from the section 22 committee. Regardless of the recommendations made by that committee, there certainly would not be any likelihood of any work commencing on any preferred option within the current financial year, and therefore there is no allocation in capital funding for this financial year. I can assure the honourable member that there will be ample opportunity for wide community debate and input into the report and its recommendations.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: My question relates to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 653 under the line item referring to operating losses for the State Rail Authority. What was the total amount paid to contractors by the SRA in 1994-95 and what is the estimated amount to be paid to contractors in 1995-96?

Mr LANGTON: What does the honourable member mean by contractors?

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: All outside workers.

Mr LANGTON: Is the honourable member referring to Nightride buses, for example?

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: Basically all outside contracts as opposed to internal contracts.

Mr LANGTON: I am happy to take that question on notice. I must say it is an extraordinarily detailed question. Numerous contracts are let by the State Rail Authority, CityRail and CountryLink freight rail annually in respect of a whole range of things. I am happy to provide as much detail as possible for the honourable member, on notice.

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The Hon. J. KALDIS: My question relates to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 655, subprogram 65.2.2, Purchase of Passenger and Freight Transport Services, in particular the line item referring to SRA CityRail services; and page 653, subprogram 65.2.1, Assistance to SRA to Implement its Reform Program, particularly the line item referring to State Rail Authority grants; and to Budget Paper No. 4, page 99, State Rail Authority non-commercial capital program, the line item referring to CityRail on train passenger security initiatives; and page 100 the line item referring to passenger security initiatives at stations. What practical examples can the Minister give to demonstrate that this money will in fact improve rail services?

Mr LANGTON: The Government has amply demonstrated, in the relatively short time it has been in office, and I have demonstrated in answer to numerous questions today, that it is serious about safety and security on our rail network and has already implemented a number of programs to ensure that the rail system is safe and secure. The Government is not prepared to simply make announcements and rest on its laurels. There is still a great deal more that needs to be done and a great deal more that the Government will do. I indicated earlier that the Government has already moved to implement its commitment to restore to 300 the number of transit police, the numbers having been decimated under the previous Government. The Government has already announced the first increase of 44 and will ensure that, by June of next year, the numbers will be back to the full strength of 300.

CityRail will continue to liaise closely with police to ensure effective use of resources, including the establishment of more police rooms on selected stations. The Government has already moved to ensure that there is close cooperation between CityRail and the Department of Transport so that in the CityRail station upgrading program, where appropriate, police rooms can be provided. I am happy to say that the upgrading of Cabramatta station, a $2.25 million program which the Government has announced, will include provision for a police room at that station. The Government will explore other opportunities to provide such rooms in conjunction with other station upgrading.

In addition the Nightsafe service has been extended by one hour. That is the program whereby Tangara trains can have all but two of the carriages closed off on the premise that there is safety in numbers. There is an element of safety in numbers if all passengers are in two cars, and it is easier for the appropriate officers to patrol the trains - whether it be the guard on the train, the transit police or the private security guards. That program has been brought forward one hour so that trains travelling into the city will have the Nightsafe program in effect from 7 p.m. and trains travelling from the city will have it in effect from 8 p.m.

I also announced that uniformed private security guards have commenced patrolling stations every night from 7 p.m. until the last service. They complement the existing service. They do not replace transit police, but they work closely with transit police to ensure that they are deployed to the places where they can serve the best purpose. For example, transit police are better utilised in known problem areas, whether it be on the city circle or at major interchanges, whereas private security guards can operate in less dense areas and areas where there are fewer identified problems but where they will give passengers a feeling of security.

As indicated before, additional stations are being fitted with closed circuit television, bringing the total number to more than 80. As indicated on a number of occasions the Government's safe stations program whereby 62 stations across the CityRail network will have guaranteed staff from the first train to the last train; where there will be floodlit and patrolled platforms, adjacent waiting areas, help points, et cetera, to ensure that people cannot only use the public transport system with safety but can also feel safe about doing so. The Government has established a transport safety bureau within the Department of Transport, a specialist body, to oversee all issues, not just the physical safety of the rolling stock but, more importantly, the people who use our public transport. All of these actions plus a great many more that the Government is committed to will ensure that we have a safe and secure system and will attract people back to public transport to restore the damage that was done to public transport during the past seven years under the previous Government.

The Hon. E. M. OBEID: My question refers to the main western line mentioned in Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 655, subprogram 65.2.2, Purchase of Passenger and Freight Transport Services, the line item referring to SRA Freight Rail services and SRA CountryLink services. I request that the Minister advise what action the Government will be undertaking to ensure continued use of the main western rail line for freight and passenger traffic.

Mr LANGTON: There is probably not an issue which is of more importance to the people of the central west and the far west of New South Wales than the continued operation of services, both passenger and freight, on the main western line. I can assure the honourable member, and all members of the Committee, that the Government is absolutely committed to ensuring that the line remains open for both passengers and freight. To a great extent it is the lifeline for people who live in the far west. It is the vital link between the far west of New South Wales and Sydney. The New South Wales Government has a basic commitment to ensure the continued operation of that line, and a great deal of discussion has taken place about who may or may not have some responsibility in terms of the operation of the line, having regard to the fact that
Page 2559
the Australian National operates over that route with the Indian Pacific. National Rail operates over that same line to use the service from Sydney to both Adelaide and Perth via Broken Hill. Nonetheless, it is a basic commitment of the Government, because it is the basic responsibility of the New South Wales Government as the owner of the line.

In the current year the Government has allocated $121 million for freight rail services and concessions, and a great deal of that amount is committed to the maintenance of the main western line. I have previously announced that to try to get some certainty into the future of the line, from the National Rail point of view, I initiated discussions with Mr Vince Graham, the chief executive of National Rail, who advised me that National Rail saw a commercial advantage in continuing to run services, particularly to Perth, via Broken Hill because of the shorter travelling time. He indicated, of course, that Sydney to Adelaide was probably six of one and half a dozen of the other, via Broken Hill or via Melbourne. However, there was commercial advantage in continuing to use the western line via Broken Hill for services to Perth.

The other thing that I believe is important, and it goes back to a question I received from the Hon. M. R. Kersten earlier relating to the Government's commitment to restore the passenger rail service to Broken Hill, a service which used to be known as the Silver City Comet but which was cancelled by the previous Government. This Government stands absolutely firm in its commitment to restore that service. The budget papers confirm the Government's commitment with an allocation of $3.5 million this year. Also, the budget papers state quite clearly that, not only that commitment but other commitments to restore regular rail passenger services to Griffith, will be put in place by March next year.

The other matter worthwhile mentioning is that we see the possibility for a great deal of cooperation between the transport and tourism portfolios, for example, in ensuring the viability of restored rail services to Broken Hill. I see great opportunity for Tourism New South Wales to cooperate with CountryLink and various tourism authorities to ensure the development of packages to attract customers to the main western line to Broken Hill. I refer not just to commuters but to those who see the west of New South Wales, and in particular Broken Hill, as a tourist destination. I reiterate that the Government is absolutely committed to the retention of western line services. It sees in the retention of that link to the far west of New South Wales not only a social benefit but also a commercial advantage for passengers, freight and tourism.

The Hon. JANELLE SAFFIN: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 655, subprogram 65.2.2, Purchase of Passenger and Freight Transport Services, line item SRA CityRail services. Does the funding for CityRail allow for public consultation programs?

Mr LANGTON: I can assure the honourable member that the item does allow for public consultation programs. One particular problem that has occurred in the past with suburban passenger services - a problem for not just the previous Government but governments prior to it - is that there was a predilection for rail operators to provide services that suited the operational requirements of the authority rather than providing services that genuinely met the needs of commuters. The decline in patronage of some services can be directly related to the fact that some potential customers do not consider that the timetabling of services provides services relevant to them. So public consultation is vital, not only to the integration of public transport and transport generally around Sydney and New South Wales, but to ensuring that public transport is meaningful for customers. Governments must ensure that services are scheduled to make those services meaningful, so that people will use them.

The specific public consultation which the honourable member asked about relates to the new timetable which will be implemented in late 1996, probably in October. That will come on line in conjunction with the opening of the Y-Link, which was mentioned earlier. The Government will ensure that the new timetable to come into effect in about October 1996 genuinely reflects the needs of commuters. Already, the public has been invited to offer suggestions on the review of that timetable. Newspaper advertisements have highlighted the opportunity for people to be involved in that process. A toll-free number can be used by customers to make sure that they can have their say. Also, survey forms are available at railway stations, and a series of public meetings will be called to ensure that people have every opportunity for input.

The draft timetable will go on public exhibition in early 1996 for further public comment. The public discussion and liaison process will continue right up until the timetable is finally determined next year. In addition, I have announced that there will be track amplification works between Riverstone and Turrella, honouring a specific election commitment, and that there will be work to duplicate the line between Blacktown and Riverstone. The Government has made specific commitments in its current capital budget to ensure the commencement of work on those two projects.

All of these initiatives show quite clearly that the Government is doing something about ensuring services are relevant to the needs of the people, that not only is it doing something about increasing usage of the existing rail system but it is serious about extending rail services in Sydney and New South Wales to attract people back to public transport. The Government believes that a viable public transport system is a key feature of a decent city and State.

The Hon. E. M. OBEID: My question refers to the Parramatta-Chatswood mass transit corridor. I refer to Budget Paper No. 3 at page 653, line item
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State Rail Authority - capital grants. Could the Minister indicate the nature and scope of investigations into the Parramatta-Chatswood corridor to be undertaken using these funds?

Mr LANGTON: As I said in my response to the previous question, the Government is committed to not only increasing patronage of existing rail services but ensuring the vital future of Sydney's public transport, by increasing the infrastructure that is available. I think many former Ministers for Transport have indicated that many of the restrictions on expansion of Sydney's rail system relate particularly to the fact that the system runs radially from the city. There needs to be investigation and development of proposals to provide cross-regional links, and ensure the long-term viability of rail services, by installing additional rail lines to link the west of Sydney with the Sydney central business district, having regard to the fact that much of the main western line - Parramatta, Granville, Strathfield through to Central - is reaching capacity, particularly at peak hours.

Prior to the last election Labor outlined its commitment to improving rail links to Parramatta. To do so, we needed to ensure that the project would meet the long-term needs of commuters by providing a new link from the west of Sydney to the Sydney central business district. Therefore, the Government determined not to restrict investigations just to the link from Parramatta to Epping but would also consider several proposals which had been given a cursory look by the previous Government. The new link particularly related to the development of a new public transport corridor, of heavy rail or perhaps light rail, between the lower north shore of Sydney, St Leonards or Chatswood to Epping.

The Government is taking the opportunity, as part of its commitment to investigate the Parramatta-Epping link, to also consider proposals for what has become known as the Macquarie link. The Government is considering a number of such proposals. It has allocated money in the current budget to look at those proposals. The Government wants to move beyond looking at one small link between Parramatta and Epping, to the long-term needs and providing something that has been missing for seven years - a vision for a future of public transport in Sydney.

The evaluation being conducted on those projects includes land investigation, patronage forecasts, environmental impacts, preliminary design work, cost estimates, impact on State Rail operations, commercial opportunities, and financial and economic considerations. Previously I announced that the investigation of that project will be completed by May 1996. That will give an indication of where we need to go from here and what is the most appropriate way of planning for the future public transport needs of Sydney. The Government is not going to restrict itself to the investigation of the Parramatta-Epping link; it will be pursuing its long-term vision for a major upgrade of public transport infrastructure for Sydney. The information will be available early next year to enable the Government to make those decisions.

CHAIR: In calling the Hon. J. Kaldis, I might point out that only 20 seconds is available.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: Mr Chairman, as there are only 20 seconds to go, might I raise a point as a matter of courtesy to the Minister. The question I asked on bus and ferry services will be provided on notice.

Mr LANGTON: I will not accept it on notice because notice of it should have been given by last Friday.

CHAIR: The Committee has finished dealing with transport, and will now have a five-minute break before moving on to tourism.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: On a point of order: the Minister is out of order. I refer to the rules and orders for Estimates Committees on statutory bodies, attachment B, item 4.2: "If a representative of a statutory body or corporation is not present at a hearing, questions to those statutory bodies or corporations will be taken on notice and a reply lodged with the Clerk of the House." I shall be providing the question on notice.

Mr LANGTON: I will take advice from the Clerk.

[Short adjournment]

CHAIR: Before the break the Hon. Dr Marlene Goldsmith asked that a question be taken on notice. I have looked at the question and feel that it is in order. Minister, is that acceptable?

Mr LANGTON: Yes.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Mr Chairman, through you to the Minister, I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 661, subprogram 66.1.2. The Sydney Convention and Visitors Bureau will receive $2.3 million as a subsidy or grant in 1995-96. When will the SCVB be formally advised of the approval of that amount?

Mr LANGTON: In due course.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I ask a supplementary question. Should I take it that the $2.3 million listed in subprogram 66.1.2 is an accurate representation of the grant or subsidy to be received by the SCVB?

Mr LANGTON: That will be determined by the Government.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I ask a further supplementary question. If it is not an accurate representation as an estimate in the formal budget paper, what is the accurate estimate?

Mr LANGTON: I certainly did not suggest it was inaccurate. It is an estimate. It is something which is determined on an annual basis by government. That will be done in the normal course.

Page 2561

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I ask a further supplementary question. The Minister said, if I remember him correctly, that the level of grant would be determined by the Government. I thought that determination had been made in the processes leading up to the budget. It is listed in the budget at $2.3 million. Can the Minister confirm that that estimate is accurate?

Mr LANGTON: I have already answered that question, Mr Chairman.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: He has not, Mr Chairman. Can he answer again?

CHAIR: Are you asking another supplementary question?

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Yes. Is the $2.3 million accurate as an estimate in subprogram 66.1.2?

Mr LANGTON: The estimates reflect the global allocation for tourism, and individual allocations are determined by government as has always been the case, and that will be done in this case.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I ask a further supplementary question. The allocation, with great respect to the Minister, on page 661 is not global. There is a line item Sydney Convention and Visitors Bureau, 1995-96 estimate, $2.3 million. It is not a global matter; it is a specific item. Is it accurate?

Mr LANGTON: That was a statement, Mr Chairman, not a question.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 660, subprogram 6.1.2. It is indeed pleasing to note the healthy growth in the number of conferences, delegates, delegate stays and the value to the economy of such conferences. How is the growth estimate for 1995-96 and indeed beyond to be achieved if there is no growth in Sydney's conference and exhibition space?

Mr LANGTON: Mr Chairman, I do not really understand the question. It presupposes there will not be growth. There is nothing in the budget papers which would indicate that.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Mr Chairman, a supplementary question: that is precisely my point. There is no line item in the budget papers which indicates that any allocation has been made for any further conference or exhibition space in Sydney. Given that the convention and exhibition centre is currently as good as full, how is he going to achieve the projected growth outlined in his budget paper if there is no allocation for further growth of the conference and exhibition space in Sydney?

Mr LANGTON: I am sure the Hon. Virginia Chadwick, as a previous Minister for Tourism, would be aware that Tourism New South Wales does not get involved in the construction of facilities. Therefore it is not a matter for the tourism portfolio.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Mr Chairman, I pass on to my next question in a state of astonishment, noting that Tourism New South Wales has no interest or involvement in conference and exhibition space.

Mr LANGTON: No, I said we do not have any involvement in constructing it.

CHAIR: The Hon. Virginia Chadwick will cease making speeches in linking her questions.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I was just trying to assist the smooth flow of the Committee, Mr Chairman, but I will move on.

CHAIR: That is certainly not what you are doing.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I note in Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 660, subprogram 66.1.2, that it is estimated that travel centre inquiries will drop by some 38,000 in one year. Can the Minister indicate what strategies, other than simply refusing to talk to people who walk through the door, shutting the door, not answering the phone perhaps and not answering mail, will be employed to stop the trend in increasing inquiries? I note the trend - 514,500 in 1992-93, 584,000 in 1993-94 and then a leap to 598,000 in 1994-95. Yet miraculously the Minister is going to achieve not only a stabilisation but a drop of 38,000 inquiries this financial year. What strategies is he going to employ to stop people asking questions?

CHAIR: Before you answer that Minister, could I suggest, as the Hon. Virginia Chadwick would well know, that long questions are not in order in these sessions. Having been a Minister, she has probably been subject to one or two herself.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: From you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIR: They are generally not in order at these Estimates Committees and I would ask that questions be brief.

Mr LANGTON: I am happy to answer the question and I am happy to advise the honourable member that the figures referred to at page 660 in general terms are numbers as opposed to dollars allocated in the budget. So, technically speaking, they are not budget allocation items. However, I am still happy to answer the question. The figures provided on page 660 were prepared some time before the budget figures were finally determined. It was assumed that there would be a reduction in the advertising budget for Tourism New South Wales and a commensurate reduction in the number of inquiries. However, I am pleased to advise the honourable member that as a result of the budget processes there was no cut in the advertising budget of Tourism New South Wales and therefore we can
Page 2562
now boldly predict that in the current year the number of inquiries will be at least equal to the number last year.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I ask a supplementary question. Does the Minister's answer mean that the line item in the budget papers which predicts a drop of 38,000 in inquiries is now incorrect?

Mr LANGTON: It has been revised upward as a result of the retention of the advertising budget for Tourism New South Wales, yes.

CHAIR: Is this a new question or another supplementary question?

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: The Minister has just referred to the advertising budget. Am I to presume that part of the advertising budget is in fact to promote the travel centres?

Mr LANGTON: No. The tourism budget, as I am sure the honourable member would be well aware, is spent in a large number of ways. It is spent on television advertising in New South Wales and around Australia, in South-East Asia, in Malaysia, in Indonesia, in Hong Kong, in Korea and in Taiwan. The broad advertising budget includes expenditure on things such as our whole selling program and the distribution of brochures throughout the 4,000-odd travel agencies around Australia. That amount of advertising, brochure production and distribution has a direct relationship with the number of inquiries that come for New South Wales holidays. There has not been a reduction in the advertising budget, so we anticipate there will not be a reduction in the number of inquiries for holidays in New South Wales.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I have a further supplementary question. Unless my memory is totally faulty, I do not think we have any travel centres in Taiwan, Indonesia or Japan. With respect to your welcome news that the marketing budget has been increased, will you indicate to me how much of that increase is now going to go to your travel centres to arrest this predicted 38,000 decline in inquiries?

Mr LANGTON: I am surprised that a former Minister for Tourism has displayed such ignorance of the portfolio. Perhaps it is a reflection on her. When a product is advertised there is always some reference to where people can make inquiries about it. In the case of holidays in New South Wales, people either call a "13" number or see their travel centres - which are in Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane and a franchise is in operation in Adelaide. The product is advertised, people find out about it from the advertisement, make inquiries about it and are directed to travel centres. I am not sure how better I can explain all that.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I thank the Minister for his comments. I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 661, subprogram 66.1.2. On what basis is it anticipated that donations and industry contributions will decrease? I refer also to subprogram 66.1.1. Grants from other organisations will be more than halved in 1995-96. How is that so?

Mr LANGTON: Grants from other organisations?

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Donations and industry contributions will decrease. In subprogram 66.1.1 grants from other organisations will be more than halved in 1995-96.

Mr LANGTON: The grants from other organisations have gone from $698,000 to $1.005 million. I am not quite sure where you see a decrease there.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: What about the donations and industry contributions?

Mr LANGTON: Let us go back to the second one first. I refer to grants from other organisations. In 1994-95 it was estimated at $463,000 and the actual was $698,000. We are estimating $1.005 million.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I am referring to page 659, subprogram 66.1.1. You will find that it drops from $70,000 to $30,000. That does not seem double to me, it seems halved.

Mr LANGTON: Grants from other organisations -

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: It is $70,000 to $30,000. I think the Minister might agree that that is more than halved.

Mr LANGTON: You were on page 661, with the greatest of respect. When you did not like the answer you changed the page number.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: At page 661 it drops from $4.3 million to $3.3 million - another drop.

Mr LANGTON: I am advised that the sum of $70,000 in 1994-95 relates mainly to revenue received by the Tourism Development Fund. No budget was allocated in 1994, but $70,000 was received. Revenue from the Tourism Development Fund is expected to be $30,000 in 1995-96.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: What about the other one, on page 661? In 1994-95 donations and industry contributions were $4.3 million and the estimate for 1995-96 is $3.3 million.

Mr LANGTON: It has not dropped. It is an estimate of what we can expect to get from the private sector. It is subjective. It depends on a whole range of factors. Obviously, we would like to at least get as much as we did last year - $4.3 million. I and Tourism New South Wales will be aiming to at least equal last year's figure. To a great extent it is outside the province of government. It relies on contributions from the private sector. We will be aiming to maximise that figure.

Page 2563

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I ask a supplementary question. With great respect to the Minister, he has just said that he is aiming to at least match last year's performance. I understand that this is an estimate. I point out to him that the estimate last year was $4 million and we had an actual of $4.3 million. Why then is the estimate $3.3 million?

Mr LANGTON: I thought I just answered that.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: No, you did not.

CHAIR: We will not enter into a debate as to whether the Minister has answered a question.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: He has given a form of answer and I thank him for at least that.

Mr LANGTON: I am just here to help.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 661, subprogram 66.1.2. I note that there is a minor increase in rents and leases. I cannot find a line item relating to the relocation of head office, which was recently announced by the Premier. Does this mean that the head office will remain in its current offices for at least the next 12 months?

Mr LANGTON: Yes.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I refer to Budget Paper No. 2, page 4-120.

CHAIR: I inform the Hon. Virginia Chadwick that she has to relate her question to a line item in Budget Paper No. 3.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I thought that might be the case, Mr Chairman, so I refer the Minister to page 658, subprogram 66.1.1. In seeking to attract both domestic and overseas visitors through the marketing campaigns outlined, what strategies are in place to reverse the trend of shorter stays?

Mr LANGTON: That is barely a budget question. What line item are you referring to?

CHAIR: It is a program objective, but it is hardly a line item.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Yes, a program objective.

Mr LANGTON: Are we talking about strategic planning?

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Yes, we are indeed. What strategic plan do you have in place to reverse the trend of shorter stays?

Mr LANGTON: So it is a strategic plan to reverse the trend of shorter stays?

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Yes. As you would be well aware with respect to our international visitors, particularly the Japanese, the numbers are deceptive. We have increased numbers of overseas visitors, but surely we would want to have a quality product which would have less impact on any aspect of our community, physical, cultural and so on.

CHAIR: With the greatest respect, the honourable member is descending into a speech.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: No, Mr Chairman, the Minister appears to be confused so I am trying to assist him.

CHAIR: The Minister can answer the question the way he likes.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: He has been to date.

Mr LANGTON: I will pull out Hansard of last year if the honourable member likes. The answer to that question is threefold. First, we have relaunched the Sydney all day long, all night long campaign in South-East Asia, which I alluded to earlier. The Minister apparently did not want to hear about it. That campaign is designed to get people to come to Sydney and New South Wales more and to spend a longer time here. Secondly, the seven wonders campaign has been relaunched and, again, the focus is to have more people come to New South Wales and stay longer. Finally, there is an increase in the budget this year for our regional tourism strategy, which is designed to ensure that when we manage to get people to come to Sydney, particularly from overseas, as a result of our international advertising they spend more time in the rest of New South Wales.

[Time expired.]

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, pages 660 and 661. I refer to the fact that delegate days have increased by 17.5 per cent from 1993-94 and will increase again by perhaps 13 per cent in 1995-96. As the Committee has just been discussing, donations from industry are projected to fall by $1 million. Precisely how these donations are elicited from industry, who does it, and why does industry not pay its fair share of the costs to the point that Tourism New South Wales could be self-funding?

Mr THIRLWELL: The cooperative income received from Tourism New South Wales is basically in the form of advertising support. We provide a base advertising campaign - such as the seven wonders campaign and the Sydney all day, all night campaign - and promote it in South-East Asia. Industry partners then participate by tagging their product - be it Ansett, Qantas, Australia's Wonderland, resorts or farm stay operators. They buy into the program to tag their ad and sell their product. We are not only selling the State but also the products of the State. That is the way the funding comes in. I am afraid that without a base program funded by the Government this industry would not contribute - it would continue to contribute to its own marketing programs, but
Page 2564
because we have a broad-range State promotion they see a benefit to themselves. They participate and that is where the cooperative income comes from. The convention side is covered by the Sydney Convention and Visitors Bureau. It gets similar support from the industry for bidding for conventions and incentive movements they might get from various markets in the world.

The Hon. I. COHEN: I refer to program 66.1, Development of the Tourism Industry, and subprogram 66.1.2, Marketing, at page 661. Tourism New South Wales is budgeted to spend over $36 million in marketing tourism. However, it receives only $6 million in income from its services. What is the unique benefit outside the tourism industry which justifies the taxpayer subsidy of $30 million? What steps, if any, are being taken to increase the level of cost recovery from the tourism industry in the form of user fees, commissions, industry donations, levies or taxes? If the $30 million is a subsidy to assist the industry during the growth phase or through a crisis, what is the timetable for phasing out the subsidy? Has the Minister considered imposing a bed tax as a means of recouping the subsidy it provides to the industry?

Mr LANGTON: The answer to the last part of the question is no. I will deal with all the other questions in globo. As has already been pointed out by Mr Thirlwell, government focus and impetus is necessary to get private industry to join in a cooperative marketing program. The benefits to the State of this are numerous. First, we see throughout New South Wales a decline in many traditional industries, particularly rural, and the opportunity exists in many parts of New South Wales for tourism to pick up some of that decline in rural industry and employment. It is estimated on analysis that over the next decade, perhaps 15 to 20 per cent of Australia's new employment will be in tourism. That will be a direct benefit to the State and its economy.

The contribution by government - by taxpayers, if the member wishes - of $30 million is relatively small in relation to the direct benefit to the New South Wales economy. By any assessment, this investment has a manyfold return to the State, to its economy and, in some cases, to government directly. Government impetus is needed in this area. It requires government coordination to ensure that we have a healthy tourism industry to create jobs and infrastructure development. This will create a positive overall benefit to the economy of the State through the expenditure of a relatively small amount of money included in our tourism budget. We cannot ever produce a budget which will be totally funded by the industry. It will always need a coordinated focus so that all tourism operators across New South Wales have a common focus, which has been tested and will guarantee an increase in the number of tourists, the nights they stay and the amount of money they spend during that stay. This will produce benefits to the State.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: Page 661 of the Budget Paper No. 3 indicates a taxpayer subsidy to the tourism industry of New South Wales of $30 million. If a 2 per cent bed tax were applied, licensed hotels with facilities, which have annual total takings of $531.577 million, would return $10.6 million; motels and guest houses with facilities, which currently take $547.083 million, would return $11 million; caravan parks, which take $171.173 million, $3.4 million; holiday flats, units and houses, which take $103.987 million, $2 million; and visitor hostels, which take $15.617 million, would return $400,000. Therefore, a 2 per cent bed tax would virtually pay for the taxpayers' subsidy, bar $2 million or $3 million. Why will the Minister not consider making tourism in New South Wales self-funding?

Mr LANGTON: We do not believe that suggestion is appropriate as it would not achieve the benefits the member suggests. In fact, evidence indicates that a bed tax would be a disincentive for an investment in accommodation in Sydney and in New South Wales.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: Two per cent?

Mr LANGTON: Such a tax would have the opposite effect to that which the honourable member suggests. We do not believe that it makes good sense as it would not achieve the suggested benefit.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: As a supplementary question, how do other taxpayers benefit when the tourism industry benefits from the $30 million? Why should the industry not pay for the benefit which it receives from the expenditure of taxpayers' money when a 2 per cent bed tax would have virtually no impact on the industry?

Mr LANGTON: Information available to Tourism New South Wales indicates that the member's suggestion would not be the case. The evidence indicates that such a tax would have an adverse impact on the industry, particularly regarding accommodation. The net benefit to the economy of New South Wales is in excess of $14 billion, which flows throughout the economy and creates jobs and infrastructure development. This applies not only to hotels and caravan parks, but also to a range of areas which support the industry. The $14 billion-odd which flows throughout our economy also has resulted in the creation of 176,000 jobs in tourism across New South Wales, which has a direct benefit to the economy, to employment and to infrastructure development. The return to the economy generally from a relatively small government investment is exceedingly good.

The Hon. I. COHEN: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, page 661, and the operating expenses line item with its employee-related and other operating expenses. Can the Minister explain why other operating expenses for tourism amount to three times the employee-related expenses, when in other areas such as the Department of Transport the
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other operating expense amount to 80 per cent of employee-related expenses? Can the Minister provide a more detailed breakdown of this aspect?

Mr LANGTON: I am happy to provide that information. Basically, the operation of Tourism New South Wales is in marketing, which comprises the bulk of the $26 million involved. That is why the net return on the investment is received. For example, unlike a government department which advertises its services, advertising and marketing is the core business of Tourism New South Wales - that is what it is there for. Advertising accounts for the bulk of the $26 million allocated. I am happy to provide a breakdown of how the money is spent on domestic and international television commercials, brochures production and so on.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: I refer to page 660 of Budget Paper No. 3, which indicates that the program description is "Promotion of tourism in New South Wales through fostering development of a greater range of tourist products . . ." Can the Minister indicate the resources devoted to backpacker tourism? What return is generated per backpacker, and how will expenditure on backpacker tourism be directed?

Mr LANGTON: I am happy to take that relevant question on notice. We all acknowledge that following the recent growth in backpacker tourism, as well as its great potential for growth, no government can afford to ignore this area of the industry. New South Wales has many magnificent unique attributes which are particularly attractive to those who tend to be backpacker tourists. The Government and Tourism New South Wales are aware of this situation. A national strategy for backpacker tourism has been developed, and New South Wales is cooperating with that strategy. I will provide a more detailed answer if the member wishes.

The Hon. I. COHEN: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, page 661, and the grants and subsidies line item. Can the Minister explain why all regional tourist associations received only $413,000 when the Sydney Convention and Visitors Bureau received $2.3 million? Can the disparity in funding be solely justified by the higher number of visitors which the Sydney bureau received when compared to regional centres? Does this disparity in funding indicate a bias to Sydney rather than the provision of regional services?

Mr LANGTON: The Government recently announced an increase in the total amount to be spent on regional tourism. The amount to be spent in 1995-96 will be $5.4 million, which is part of the $26 million which is listed on the second line of page 661. The $413,000 relates to specific grants to the visitors centre only, as opposed to the promotion of regional tourism. Certainly there is no bias towards Sydney in the promotional or marketing campaigns of Tourism New South Wales. We acknowledge the benefit to Sydney of work done by the Sydney Convention and Visitors Bureau and the enormous yield achieved from convention delegates, which was a major part of the tourism income received in Sydney. However, we are also very well aware of the benefits, as I have already indicated, to regional and rural areas generated through tourism. Again, we have increased the budget to $5.4 million for regional tourism.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: I refer to page 660 of Budget Paper No. 3. What resources are being provided in 1995-96 to promote farm-stay and bed and breakfast accommodation? What turnover is expected to be generated from those activities in the past year? Also, how has turnover increased during the past five years, and how will the resources expended be recovered?

Mr LANGTON: I will obtain full details and provide the answer to the honourable member. In our wholesale programs we have launched three brochures, one of which relates to Sydney, one to beaches and the other to the country. The country brochure includes a number of packages involving bed and breakfast and home-stay. We will do whatever we can to encourage this very important part of the tourism market. I am happy to take that question on notice and provide the exact figures.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: On a point of order: I would like to ask a supplementary question.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: That is fine by me.

CHAIR: I rule that out of order.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Why?

CHAIR: Each group, as we ruled before, has 20 minutes in which to ask questions. The guidelines have no scope for people to ask questions during the time of another group.

The Hon. I. COHEN: I have no further questions. I would be happy for the Hon. Virginia Chadwick to ask her question.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: I will be happy to receive that supplementary question from the Hon. Virginia Chadwick, so I can ask it of the Minister. Referring to page 660 of the Budget Estimates, subprogram 61.1.2, as part of the domestic marketing strategy outlined, is work continuing with the Department of Urban Affairs and Planning to develop or facilitate bed and breakfast accommodation? It is a very good question.

Mr LANGTON: Yes.

The Hon. E. M. OBEID: I refer to Budget Estimates, page 656, agency number 66, which relates to the operating statement of Tourism New South Wales. I refer to the Consolidated Fund recurrent funding line item, which indicates that the Government will invest $31.174 million in tourism in New South Wales in 1995-96. What return does Tourism New South Wales make from this investment?

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Mr LANGTON: Some of these matters have been alluded to in previous questions. Basically, Tourism New South Wales provides the leadership to the tourism industry, and it enables coordination of government agencies and their role in tourism, and it is the appropriate vehicle to provide the policy framework within which the State tourism industry operates. It also plays a very important coordinating role across and between different levels of government. Tourism New South Wales will be the State's tourism marketing flagship in the lead-up to the Olympic Games and will provide strong leadership to the industry and key government agencies. As its major focus, it will market New South Wales at home and overseas as an accessible and exciting tourism destination, and it will provide opportunities for individual tourism operators to market themselves economically and efficiently in the major domestic and international markets. The Government's allocation of over $31 million this year to Tourism New South Wales will enable it to maintain this State as the nation's premier tourist destination.

Honourable members would be aware that Tourism New South Wales was established under the Tourism New South Wales Act and commenced operation in March 1985. Under the Act the principal objective of Tourism New South Wales is to achieve economic and social benefits for the people of New South Wales through the development of tourism. To achieve this objective, Tourism New South Wales is charged with promoting travel to and within New South Wales and coordinating the development of ventures relating to tourism. As the Government's tourism development and marketing arm, Tourism New South Wales seeks to provide strong leadership with industry and government, to be a facilitator and not an operator, to provide a strategic overlay for the development of the industry, to market the brand "New South Wales", to provide a strategic framework for development of regional New South Wales, to provide industry leadership and advocacy, to develop greater coordination for the State Government's departments on matters related to tourism and to improve local council understanding and cooperation on matters related to tourism.

Tourism New South Wales has pursued its policy and planning-related objectives by the formulation of a State tourism master plan, complemented by regional tourism strategies and local tourism plans. These have been prepared in cooperation with other government entities at all levels, as well as key industry stakeholders. It has been a vital role of Tourism New South Wales to prepare and coordinate an environment in which the people of New South Wales can maximise their gains from tourism development. Since its foundation, Tourism New South Wales has seen its marketing role as presenting an image of New South Wales as a holiday destination to its major markets, as well as working with the industry to ensure wide distribution of New South Wales holiday product in the marketplace. An example of this is the program I mentioned earlier, the wholesale program. In conjunction with this role, it has provided a number of cooperative marketing vehicles for small operators to promote their products in major markets in a cost-effective manner, in a way which would not be possible without the assistance from the coordinating role of Tourism New South Wales.

The Hon. J. KALDIS: Minister, marketing of regional New South Wales is very important to the economy of rural areas. Budget Paper No. 3, page 661, agency number 66, Tourism New South Wales, subprogram 66.1.2, Marketing, allocates $413,000 to regional tourist associations. What other initiatives does Tourism New South Wales have to foster regional tourism?

Mr LANGTON: This question also relates partially to the question I received earlier from the Hon. I. Cohen relating to regional tourism. As I said then, recently I had the pleasure of announcing our biggest and most comprehensive commitment to regional tourism throughout New South Wales and to the regional tourism industry. I indicated then that the Government has allocated $5.4 million in the current year and that will see Tourism New South Wales, local government and the industry forge closer links to provide more competitive regional tourism products, as well as contemporary tourism infrastructure which meets the changing needs of the growing number of domestic and international visitors. Tourism New South Wales has increased regional tourism funding by 6 per cent as part of a comprehensive plan to develop and market holiday products across regional New South Wales.

Implementation of these strategies will achieve a stronger and more cohesive framework for the tourism industry in this State. A three-way partnership between the tourism industry, local government and the State Government will guarantee a stronger and more competitive profile for this State's diverse tourism product. It will pull together all the components of the regional tourism industry so that development and marketing efforts bring stronger results. The aim of the regional tourism strategy is to provide a long-term and integrated framework for the development of Tourism New South Wales. The comprehensive nature of the plan represents the dedication and cooperation which is achievable across the industry with leadership provided by Tourism New South Wales, as I indicated earlier.

The key elements of the $5.4 million are: $1.1 million for major industry cooperative advertising, both in Australia and overseas; $1 million for cooperative regional marketing projects for industry and local government; $500,000 for regional marketing development for new and developing products; $350,000 for product and marketing brochures; $413,000 in subsidies for tourist information centres and their Newtracs tourism information database operation; and
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$300,000 for other regional tourism support activities including industry and marketing seminars, research on consumer decision making and their perceptions of New South Wales regional, domestic and international media programs. In addition, $460,000 is for resource support for the network of 16 regional tourism organisations across the State and $100,000 for resource support to help implement regional master plans.

I also advise that a Sydney marketing unit was established at Tourism New South Wales in the last year to implement a marketing strategy that capitalises on central Sydney's pivotal role in the lead-up to the Sydney 2000 Olympic Games. A tourism development unit within Tourism New South Wales has been created to facilitate the establishment of major tourism products and infrastructure development throughout the State. Regional marketing officers from Tourism New South Wales, who are able to provide the sorts of services I have indicated, are strategically located in Wagga Wagga, Canberra, Orange, Coffs Harbour, Newcastle and Sydney. I believe that the work that has been done by Tourism New South Wales to foster regional tourism will have direct benefits to regional and country New South Wales and to employment across regional and country New South Wales. It will be good for the economy of the State as a whole.

The Hon. JANELLE SAFFIN: Minister, in Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 661, agency number 66, Tourism New South Wales, subprogram 66.1.2, Marketing, the line item referring to Sydney Convention and Visitors Bureau shows funds to help promote Sydney through conventions. You have alluded to this in other answers, but what other marketing activities are in place to promote Sydney, arguably Australia's most important tourist attraction?

Mr LANGTON: Extensive research and consultation about how best to develop and promote tourism in New South Wales identified a need to establish a dedicated marketing unit to specifically promote and market the regional zone known as Sydney Central. This zone plays a pivotal role in generating tourist visitation not only to surrounding Sydney but also in attracting visitors to New South Wales generally. The key responsibility for the Sydney marketing unit is to develop and implement a long-term tourism marketing strategy for Sydney. Through implementation of this integrated marketing strategy for Sydney, a wide range of tourism opportunities will be created that will ensure the Sydney region capitalises upon its existing assets - especially the 2000 Olympic Games - and maximises its growth potential. It will also guarantee that the region delivers quality visitor experiences and services, based on existing and newly developed tourism products which are tailored to meet the needs of its target market.

Importantly, the strategy will provide the rationale and vehicle for coordinating the marketing efforts of key organisations within the region, to see that Sydney maintains its focus as the cultural capital of Australia and the Asia-Pacific area. The $3 million commitment by the Government and Tourism New South Wales, for the marketing of the Sydney region in the prosperous Asian markets, through the "Sydney: All Day Long. All Night Long" campaign, are showing benefits already. They will underpin the overall growth of New South Wales as a visitor destination. The Sydney marketing unit was officially established in January and has been directly involved in specific major projects, for example, the development of a dedicated tourism marketing strategy for Sydney. The Sydney marketing unit is currently working on this document, utilising in-house resources on a cross-functional team basis. It is anticipated that this strategy will be completed in the first quarter of 1996. Also, there has been the formation and management of a chief executive officer level committee known as the Sydney Tourism Advisory Committee. To date, three quarterly meetings of the Sydney Tourism Advisory Committee have taken place. The committee has provided input into the Sydney tourism marketing strategy and discuss numerous pertinent Sydney issues.

The Hon. E. M. OBEID: Minister, I refer you to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 656, agency number 66, Tourism New South Wales, shows that the Government will be providing $31.174 million from the Consolidated Fund to support tourism in 1995-96. How will this allocation help the tourism industry capitalise on opportunities offered by the Sydney 2000 Olympic Games.

Mr LANGTON: That is an important question. The Government and Tourism New South Wales believe that New South Wales will gain some 90,000 jobs and $4.6 billion in revenue as a result of Sydney winning the bid to host the games. This Government's goal is to spread the tourism dollars across the State and that is why the development and marketing of regional tourism is so important and why the Government places such a high priority on working with the industry on regional tourism campaigns. The Games will provide New South Wales and the rest of Australia with a huge boost to cultural pride and economic prosperity. The Sydney Organising Committee for the Olympic Games has offered communities across Australia the opportunity to host overseas Olympic teams for acclimatisation and training prior to the Games.

Tourism in New South Wales is anticipated to increase by 1.5 million visitors between now and 2004, with almost all the extra tourists visiting Sydney. Tourists are expected to be of three types, obviously pre-Olympic, those who come specifically for the 16-odd days of the Olympic Games and those who come post-Olympics, drawn by the knowledge of Sydney in international markets. Some recent analysis by the Australian Tourist Commission suggests the figure may well be higher. To manage this anticipated inflow of visitation, Tourism New South Wales established the tourism Olympic forum, consisting of key industry organisations to look at options that Sydney is likely
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to expect and the tourism planning issues that need to be considered. During the years 1997, 1998 and 1999 Tourism New South Wales, the Australian Tourist Commission and the Sydney Convention and Visitors Bureau will stage an international trade show entitled "Showcase 2000". This event will be held in 1999, and timed to begin immediately at the conclusion of the Australian tourist exchange. "Showcase 2000" will provide Sydney with an Olympic tourism promotional platform in the run-up to the 2000 Olympic Games and beyond, as well as providing the international industry a direct opportunity to experience Sydney's tourism product in 1997-98, directly linked to the Olympic Games.

The Hon. J. KALDIS: Minister, Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 661, subprogram 66.1.2, Marketing, indicates a large proportion of
funding allocation for Tourism New South Wales is toward its marketing effort. Total marketing-related expenses are more than $36 million. How is Tourism New South Wales directing its funds to increase its marketing focus?

Mr LANGTON: Some of these matters I alluded to earlier and I have already answered the broad thrust of the question. Within Tourism New South Wales there are seven operational units charged with marketing functions and responsibilities. They are marketing services -

[Time expired.]

The Committee proceeded to deliberate on the recommendation of the vote.

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The Hon. Dr Meredith Burgmann The Hon. S. B. Mutch
The Hon. A. G. Corbett Reverend the Hon. F. J. Nile
The Hon. J. P. Hannaford The Hon. B. H. Vaughan
The Hon. J. R. Johnson



The Hon. J. W. Shaw, Attorney General, and Minister for Industrial Relations

Mr B. Grimshaw, Ministerial Adviser

Attorney General's Department
Mr L. Glanfield, Director-General

Industrial Relations
Ms H. Bauer, Director-General

Legal Aid Commission
Mr M. Cramsie, General Manager
Page 2570

CHAIR: I declare open the Estimates Committee for the Attorney General and Industrial Relations. I have been advised by the Opposition that for the Estimates Committee for those two portfolio areas the Opposition will be represented by the Hon. J. P. Hannaford and the Hon. S. B. Mutch.

Questions will be asked in blocks of time and allocated on the following basis: Opposition members 20 minutes, crossbench members 20 minutes, Ministers and Government members 20 minutes. Any remaining time will be allocated in rotation in 10 minute blocks. I propose that the first two and a half hours allocated to this committee be devoted to the Attorney General, including the program areas of the Judicial Commission, the Legal Aid Commission, and the Office of Director of Public Prosecutions in the first instance. The remaining time will be allocated to the portfolio area of Industrial Relations, with time apportioned as I indicated earlier.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: Budget Paper No. 2, Budget Information, page 1-32 in relation to net cost of services, states -

CHAIR: You are referring to what is known as the Budget Information document. I have ruled questions out of order unless they are specifically aligned to a line item in the budget estimates. I will not accept a question directed simply to the Budget Information paper. If you can refer it to a budget estimate and to a line item or program in the estimates, I will accept the question.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 155, line item, operating statement, indicates that to achieve revenues the budget papers advocate that the Government, in order to restrain outlays, proposes to increase revenue by increasing charges. Can the Minister confirm whether the department is examining proposals to introduce filing fees in motor vehicle accident cases?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: Yes, we are doing that.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: Last year motor vehicle registration fees were increased by $3 and hypothecated to the department directly to allow the elimination of motor vehicle accident filing fees. How do you justify retaining the $3 levy, plus the proposed increase in filing fees?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: The motor accidents scheme is being fundamentally revised because of the totally unacceptable escalation of green slip premiums, and part of that revision is a cost consideration in relation to filing fees. The Government is faced with the position whereby it has to curtail the cost of that scheme. It is reasonable to say that part of that ought to be the introduction of filing fees which, after all, apply in many other areas of litigation. There is nothing exceptional about that, it is the normal phenomenon of going to court that you pay some sort of fee for that process to occur.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: In view of the fact that Treasury approved the hypothecation of the $3 registration fee because it met the total costs of dealing with motor accident claims, how do you justify a double dipping by imposing a filing fee when the costs are already met by that $3 levy?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: This is not a double dipping. The previous Government imposed the $3 additional registration fee and had views about how it ought to be spent. The sheer economic pressure on the motor accidents scheme means that we need to have a series of cost measures, and the filing fee is one of those. But there is no question of double-dipping involved.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: In Budget Paper No. 4, State Capital Program, at page 23 no significant budget sector projects are listed for your department. Are you able to identify what happened to the $28 million computer project which was being pursued by your department and for which contracts were about to be signed two weeks from the date of the election?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: You are referring to the case management project that has been contemplated over some time. That project is still under consideration, but it has been deferred. When and if an appropriate allocation is available for it and it is appropriate to implement it, we will do so.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: Is this the same scheme in respect of which the Chief Justice called for the allocation of funds to achieve a paperless court and for which Treasury gave a high priority for its approval?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: There is budgetary allocation; money is available for the continuing computerisation of the court and that program will go ahead and the so-called paperless courts can be implemented.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: The project for which tenders had been called and analysis completed is not at this time proceeding?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: That is so.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: In Budget Paper No. 3, operating expenses, for the victims compensation scheme you identify that in this year there will be $10.4 million worth of savings, and $20.3 million worth of savings each year thereafter. What are the major changes you will be pursuing to achieve those savings?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: The savings, of course, are predicated upon legislative change. Legislation will be introduced into the Parliament this year with a view to addressing the threshold and the difficulty that arises from the double litigation process. One of the great problems about the victims compensation scheme is the doubling-up of litigation between the Victims Compensation Tribunal and the District Court. There are too
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many cases run in a perfunctory way before the Victims Compensation Tribunal which then are the subject of appeal de novo to the District Court where new and fuller evidence is produced. The appeal rate from the tribunal to the District Court is excessive and the success rate in relation to District Court appeals is very high. This obviously poses a considerable cost for the scheme. Those are the fundamental matters I want to address- - the problem of too many small claims, refocusing the scheme on the major and significant injuries which arise from crime, and the volume of litigation flowing from excessive numbers of appeals from the tribunal to the District Court. This will be subject to legislation and debate in the Parliament in due course.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: You say that the threshold will be addressed. The current threshold is $200. Is it a fact that research undertaken for the department by the Bureau of Crime Statistics has indicated that the threshold will have to rise to approximately $3,000 in order to achieve the savings you are postulating?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: This is really debating the proposed bill, which has not been drafted and certainly has not been introduced into the Parliament. There will be abundant opportunity for the Legislative Council and the Legislative Assembly to debate the bill when it is introduced. I indicate informally that I do not contemplate that the threshold will go as high as the figure mentioned by Mr Hannaford.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: I refer to Budget Paper No. 2 at page 3-13, recurrent appropriations. In order to give the department its budget I note an increased appropriation from births, deaths and marriages to Treasury, from an estimate in 1994-95 of $1.9 million to an estimate of $9.2 million this year. How does the Minister justify a 500 per cent increase in this allocation and, therefore, the massive increases that will have to be charged for certificates for births, deaths and marriages?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: There would be a special dividend paid by that particular agency of $5.5 million. That arises because money had been accrued - money was sitting in the bank, money was available. It was thought appropriate for that dividend to be paid.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: There has been a special dividend declaration of $5.5 million, but the budget papers show that the increase in dividend this year will be to $9.2 million. Does that mean there will be an ordinary dividend paid, increased from $1.9 million last year to just over $4 million this year?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: It is $3.9 million or something approximating that, for the ordinary dividend. Essentially the answer is yes. The ordinary contemplated dividend would be paid, plus the special dividend of $5.5 million.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: Therefore, to achieve these dividends, can you give an assurance that the costs of certificates of births, deaths and marriages will not increase?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: No increase is currently proposed.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: Again within the same line item, in order to achieve the appropriation it is proposed to declare a special dividend this year from the Public Trustee of $35 million. Since the Public Trustee has been appointed as a trustee of the estates of the poorest in the State, how do you justify the removal of $35 million from those estates?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: Independent consultants recommended that there was a component of surplus interest which could be payable, that is, the amount specified by Mr Hannaford in his question. The advice is that the reserves are sufficient to allow that to be paid and we have acted on that advice.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: Since the Public Trustee is a trustee organisation that holds money for beneficiaries, how do you justify extracting $35 million from those trusts for payment into State revenue?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: This is not money which is the subject of a dividend owing to clients in any way, shape or form. It is money over and above that; it is money that has accrued over many years. Obviously, all money owing to clients is held on trust by the Public Trustee and will be paid to those clients. But this is money available over and above those equitable debts.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: Is it not the fact that the Public Trustee only has money that comes from trustee clients and only invests money from trustee clients? It does not receive any other income. How can it be said that all of the income of the trustee should not be allocated to the beneficiaries?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: The dividend is payable because of the difference between the rate payable to clients and the money that has actually been earned. There is a gap between the earnings and the rate actually payable to clients, so money is available to pay that dividend without any infringement of the rights of clients.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: Is the Minister saying, therefore, that the Public Trustee is earning more money from its investments than it is paying to its clients, which means it has a surplus?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: That has been so, as a matter of long history.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: On that basis, if it is earning more money out of its trustee accounts than it is paying to the clients, how can it be justified that the surplus should be paid to the Government rather than being used for the benefit of running the affairs of beneficiaries?

Page 2572

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: The rate that has been and is paid by the trustee to clients is in excess of market rates. The clients are in no way being prejudiced or disadvantaged.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: As I understand your answer, you are in receipt of moneys earned on the assets of trustee estates and the Government is proposing to extract $35 million from that income. How can the Government justify extracting those moneys rather than leaving them with the Public Trustee to use for the better administration of the Office of the Public Trustee?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: The advice we have, and the view we have taken, is that the administration of the Public Trustee is on a sound basis. There are adequate resources for the Public Trustee to be administered and no money is owing to clients. Clients are being paid what they are entitled to and there is, therefore, a surplus. That surplus ought to be used productively rather than simply sitting in a bank account.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: On the basis it should be used productively and since the fees for trustees have now been deregulated, why does the Public Trustee not use these funds to further reduce the charges imposed on trustee estates rather than pay the $35 million to the Government?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: There are problems about what is an equitable charge for the Public Trustee to levy. I would have thought the Opposition would take the view that there ought to be a level playing field when one is comparing the Public Trustee with private sector alternatives. It might be thought to be unfair competition if the Public Trustee were to charge an artificially low rate simply because of surpluses accrued as a matter of history.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: Can the Minister confirm whether this dividend can be paid by the Public Trustee to the Government without legislative changes?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: It is possible that the payment might require a legislative base. It is the subject of current advice. It is something we are considering.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: I note from the budget papers that it is proposed the Public Trustee will be corporatised. It is stated in the budget papers that this will provide an opportunity for an appropriate capital reduction to be implemented and that equity restructure payments have been included in Government income. Can the Minister tell the Committee how much Treasury plans to extract out of this equity restructure of the Public Trustee?

CHAIR: Before the Minister answers that question, and it is entirely a matter for him, I believe the question is straying from the estimates. The Public Trustee is not mentioned in these estimates. Subject to any comment from the Minister, I ask you to proceed to another question.

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: I will not comment.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: In Budget Paper No. 3 at page 169, in relation to the Supreme Court, under the line item referring to outputs it shows a significant success achieved in reducing delays in criminal trials and reducing the backlog of civil cases. However, there is nothing in the allocations in the budget papers to identify that the Court of Appeal is suffering significant backlogs of 2½ years. No allocation has been made to reduce these delays. How is that justified?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: The question of delays in the Court of Appeal is obviously a matter of some concern, but it must be said that last year an additional judge was appointed to the Court of Appeal by the previous Government without any budgetary allocation to support that appointment. Obviously that creates an ongoing budgetary problem. In one sense the Court of Appeal is overstaffed by one judge as a result of that decision. One judge was appointed from the equity division of the Supreme Court to the Court of Appeal and that judge was replaced in the equity division. However, that does not mean that there cannot be ongoing strategies adopted to try to address the problem of the backlog in the Court of Appeal. Indeed, we propose to introduce legislation that will give effect to a number of suggestions by the Court of Appeal, which will improve its procedures. These suggestions have been around for quite a long time in the annual reports of the court, but we will present a bill to the Parliament. The bill is virtually ready for presentation to the Legislative Council; it will achieve a number of efficiency measures. I must say, in my reference to the provision of an additional judge to the Court of Appeal last year, this budget includes funds to cover that additional position, which was not the case prior to this budget.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: At page 160 of Budget Paper No. 3 a line item refers to legal assistance to Supreme Court trials and sentences. What was the total amount spent on the Garforth appeal relating to the murder of Ebony Simpson? Is there a provision for the appeal to the High Court?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: The Garforth case, of course, was the tragic case of the murder of Ebony Simpson. An application for special leave to the High Court was refused. Legal aid for appeals to the Court of Criminal Appeal is only granted where it is considered there are reasonable prospects of success. Prospects of success are determined by obtaining counsel's advice. In this particular matter, Mr Garforth's appeal was conducted by Mr Martin Sides, QC, who is the senior public defender. As the matter was handled by a public defender, there was no expenditure of public funds outside the time Mr Sides spent arguing an appeal before the Court of Criminal Appeal. As you would appreciate, he is a salaried officer. As Mr Sides appeared at the original sentence of Mr Garforth, the matter occupied only half a day for argument and no preparation time was necessary as Mr Sides was fully familiar with the matter.

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Whilst the Court of Criminal Appeal dismissed Mr Garforth's appeal against the term of natural life sentence that he was given, the judgment has provided valuable guidance to prosecutors, defence lawyers and the courts about the circumstances in which a term of natural life sentence is appropriate. Indeed, it is fair to say that the Garforth judgment in the Court of Criminal Appeal is a leading exposition of when the maximum penalty is justifiable and appropriate. Following receipt of advice from Mr Sides, legal aid was extended to Mr Garforth to appeal to the High Court against the decision of the Court of Criminal Appeal. The High Court refused special leave. Thus the Court of Criminal Appeal decision becomes definitive in relation to the circumstances under which a term of natural life sentence is appropriate. I should say to Reverend Nile that the Legal Aid Commission makes these decisions about legal aid at arms-length from the Government, and I do not interfere with them. In the circumstances, the commission obviously decided to provide legal aid, although, as I have indicated, Mr Garforth was unsuccessful at every step of the process.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: So there were no expenses involved with the appeal to the High Court, again by public defenders, even though it was rejected? It was conducted by correspondence; there was no actual appearance before the court, is that right?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: I understand that Mr Sides also appeared in the High Court special leave application. So the Senior Public Defender appeared at the trial - although as I understand it there was a plea of guilty - at the Court of Criminal Appeal and then at the special leave application before the High Court, which is generally a short proceeding just seeking special leave. That was thrown out. As I understand it, there was no private legal expenditure, apart from the use of the Senior Public Defender.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: Page 163 of Budget Paper No. 3 refers to the Victims Compensation Tribunal. There were reports that Mr Garforth applied for a victims compensation payment as well. Were any payments finally made to Garforth? What is the situation in regard to prisoners applying for victims compensation? Are you anticipating any further claims, or has that door been shut completely now?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: Two claims for victims compensation were lodged by Andrew Garforth via his solicitors, Brezniak Neil-Smith and Co. Both claims related to alleged assaults on Mr Garforth in prison. In both instances it is alleged that he was assaulted by other prisoners. Both applications were listed for hearing in the week commencing 30 October 1995. However, the solicitors acting for Mr Garforth have now advised the Victims Compensation Tribunal that the claims have been withdrawn. I will be introducing legislation in this session to overhaul the victims compensation scheme. Under the reform proposal prisoners serving custodial sentences will be subject to barriers in relation to the claiming of victims compensation. But it is not intended that that provision will affect fine defaulters or prisoners on remand. I also propose to provide for the setting off of an award where the claimant for compensation in one case is the offender in another compensation application. It seems to me inappropriate in such circumstances that the tribunal is paying out compensation to an applicant at the same time as it is seeking restitution from that person in connection with another case. It is also my intention to reform the scheme to ensure that any person injured whilst engaging in criminal conduct is not eligible to apply for victims compensation for such injuries.

The Hon. A. G. CORBETT: The operating statement on page 189 of Budget Paper No. 3 refers to grants and subsidies. How much funding did the Legal Aid Commission provide as a core grant to the Environmental Defender's Office in 1994-95? How much has been allocated for 1995-96?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: I have taken a considerable interest in this matter, which has been the subject of many submissions both from the Environmental Defender's Office and other sympathetic sources. As you would be aware, this is a jointly funded project between the Commonwealth and State governments. I am informed that last year the allocation was $96,564. The amount which would be paid to the Environmental Defender's Office this year out of Legal Aid Commission funds is still the subject of active consideration. An appropriate allocation will have my sympathetic support, but it will need to come from legal aid funds, and from the community legal centres program.

The Hon. A. G. CORBETT: Would an appropriate level of funding be the same or more?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: I am inclined to the view that it should be more.

The Hon. A. G. CORBETT: Could the level of recurrent funding for the Environmental Defender's Office in some way be compared to funding for community legal centres? Will it be equivalent, more or less?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: I made the point earlier that the Legal Aid Commission is independent of government. It needs to allocate its funds at arms-length from government. But, within its budget, it has the capacity to move funds between various items of expenditure. It is certainly possible for the Environmental Defender's Office to achieve greater funding compared to community legal centres and the like.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: Page 163 of Budget Paper No. 3 refers to the Anti-Discrimination Board and to requests for legal advice, complaints lodged and complaints finalised.
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What complaints, if any, have been lodged under the new homosexual vilification section of the Anti-Discrimination Act? Are any cases pending?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: I regret that I do not have those statistics readily available to me. I would be happy to ascertain the facts and provide the honourable member with that information. I will take that question on notice.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: Are you aware of any complaints at all under that section, in general terms?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: The information I presently have, which relates to complaints received by the Anti-Discrimination Board concerning homosexual vilification, indicates a total of 19 so far. The cut-off date was 30 June this year. I will check those figures, make sure they are up to date, and provide that information to the honourable member.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: Would that figure of 19 include any media personalities, or is that confidential?

CHAIR: Reverend the Hon. F. J. Nile is straying way beyond budget estimates by asking questions like that. I ask him to come back to the budget estimates. I do not think that question is relevant.

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: There would be an element of confidentiality - perhaps a strong element - in relation to that matter. I would not want to say anything that might give rise to speculation. Obviously, I would be very cautious about disclosing details of individual cases.

The Hon. A. G. CORBETT: I refer to operating expenses on page 189 of Budget Paper No. 3. Does Treasury require the Legal Aid Commission to pay for the fit out of its new premises from its operational budget?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: The answer to that is yes, there is a requirement that the fit out of the new premises be repaid at the rate of $350,000 per annum for 10 years.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: Page 166 of Budget Paper No. 3 refers to grants and subsidies in relation to the Registry of Births, Deaths and Marriages. What provision have you made in your budget in view of your announcement that transsexuals can have their birth certificates changed? I understand there are 10,000 possibilities. Will it be based on a user-pays system, which would mean there would be no budget provision?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: The view that has been taken about that is that any expenses can be absorbed in and dealt with by existing budgetary allocations. If I may say so, I think the figure of 10,000 is inflated. That is the total number of estimated transgender people in New South Wales.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: That is right.

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: The number of post-operative people who would be eligible for and interested in new birth certificates is much lower than that. The answer to the honourable member's question is that it can be dealt within existing budgetary allocations.

The Hon. A. G. CORBETT: Page 189 of Budget Paper No. 3 refers to employee-related expenses under the operating statement. Given recent inflationary trends, has legal aid received an adjustment to take account of wage movements?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: The general answer to that question is that all budgetary allocations take account of the salary increases agreed upon in the public sector, that is, an aggregate salary increase of 7 per cent. All of the figures you see take into account that two-stage salary increase.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: Page 164 of Budget Paper No. 3 refers to compensation for the victims of crime and grants made to other organisations. What was the total grant in 1994-95 to the Homicide Victims Support Group? What provision have you made for this important group in the 1995-96 budget? It may operate under different names, but the name I am aware of is the Homicide Victims Support Group.

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: I would have to take that question on notice. I undertake to provide an answer for the honourable member.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: I refer to page 154 of Budget Paper No. 3, and I wish to ask a general question in regard to the Attorney General's Department. I note that, in contrast to other government departments which have had increases in staff, the Attorney General's Department has had a reduction in staff. In 1994-95 there were 3,141 staff and in 1995-96 there are 3,049. What areas have been cut? What effect would that have on the efficiency of the department? Where are the staff coming from, or are they spread over a number of sections?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: The basic reason for that staff reduction is the reamalgamation of the Department of Courts Administration and the Attorney General's Department. The honourable member would know that, very soon after we came into government, we put those departments back together again. Some years ago they were split on the theoretical basis that policy ought to be distinguished from implementation. That was a general philosophy prevailing under the previous Government. There was a splitting of the Department of Courts Administration from the Attorney General's Department. When we put the departments back together again there were savings, particularly in corporate services, which has enabled staff reductions and other financial benefits. Without wanting to be political about it, it justifies
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and shows the merits of that reamalgamation of the Attorney General's Department and the Department of Courts Administration.

The Hon. A. G. CORBETT: Page 191 of Budget Paper No. 3 refers to legal aid and legal services for children. What measures are being taken or are planned to be implemented to ensure that children do not have to face accused persons in court?

CHAIR: Before the Minister even attempts to answer that question, that is a policy question and not a budget estimates issue.

The Hon. A. G. CORBETT: May I rephrase my question?

CHAIR: If you want to know how much is being spent I suggest you rephrase your question.

The Hon. A. G. CORBETT: What amount of money has been spent, or is planned to be spent, to ensure that children do not have to face accused persons in court?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: Obvious measures are being taken to protect children in court cases, particularly cases involving child sexual assault and the like. Those include using video evidence, having a child cross-examined over a video link and other barriers in the courts, and so on. Obviously that is a matter of concern. I am sure that all members would think that is an appropriate course to take to protect the child. There are also questions as to eliminating cross-examination of children at committal hearings, but as to the precise breakdown of the amount we are expending to protect children in that way, I would need to take that on notice. I am sure we could provide a breakdown, but the member may be assured that that is a matter of importance, and that resources will be provided to give effect to those policies.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: I refer the Attorney to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 157, subprogram 20.1.1, line item grants to organisations. I note that in 1994-95 $492,000 was allocated in the budget, but only $8,000 was spent. Is there any simple explanation for that? In the 1995-96 budget you have allocated $516,000. If the grants were not paid what organisations or groups missed out? Were they Aboriginal groups or others?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: The matter to which attention has been drawn flows from the allocation to the juvenile crime prevention program, and it appears that during the financial year that program did not -

CHAIR: For the purposes of completing that answer would you prefer to come back to that question next time around?

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: It may be that it involves only one short sentence.

CHAIR: Is the answer of considerable length?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: I could give a more satisfactory answer if we come back to it.

The Hon. J. R. JOHNSON: I refer the Attorney General to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 160, subprogram 20.1.2, the line item relating to Public Defenders, Treasury program. Does the increase in the allocation for employee-related expenses mean that a full complement of public defenders will be available to assist those in need of their services?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: For the first time in three years public defenders will now be operating at their full establishment level of 18. A review of the public defenders' support staff requirements and their establishment was conducted at the end of 1994. As a result, the establishment of public defenders is now as follows: one senior public defender, one deputy senior public defender, and 16 public defenders. Since coming to office I have appointed three public defenders, and I am pleased to say that two of them are women. This doubled the number of female public defenders, and will help to redress an imbalance that was ignored for too long. As a result also of the establishment review, a new position of clerk to chambers has been created. Cheryl Clarke took up duties in this position on 3 July. It is envisaged that her role in liaising between public defenders, the Legal Aid Commission and private solicitors will allow maximum use of the public defenders and result in improved coordination for briefing public defenders, creating communication between the commission and public defenders, and more effective use of legal resources in case disposition.

I should also mention that the new Public Defenders Act, passed earlier this year and introduced by this Government, will now allow the appointment as a public defender of persons on the roll of solicitors as well as those on the roll of barristers. This will allow a wider field for selection as public defenders and should ensure that the high standard of representation currently available through public defenders is maintained. The public defenders legislation also has other uses. It can lead to a more flexible and diverse role for the public defenders. In particular it will allow cross-fertilisation between prosecutors and defenders. In other words, it will enable defenders to spend a period prosecuting, if that is suitable and agreed. It will allow them to be used to assist government inquiries and the like. It is a much-needed legislative reform and it is welcomed by the Senior Public Defender.

In fairness, I should say that we had the support of the Opposition for this legislation, which meant that we were able to confirm Mr Martin Sides, QC, as Senior Public Defender. For quite a number of years he had been acting in a rather unsatisfactory situation since the departure of Mr Peter Hidden, now Justice Hidden, for the public bar. All in all we have been able to stabilise and improve the position of public defenders. A couple
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of weeks ago I addressed their conference and assured them that the Government was very supportive of the idea of salaried public defenders performing the vital role of defending people accused of criminal offences. The judgment of the Court of Criminal Appeal in the Milat case is also an affirmation of the importance and integrity of public defenders, because the court reaffirmed that it was an adequate implementation of the principle that a person was entitled to a fair trial, and for the State to provide a public defender. In other words, the High Court doctrine in the Dietrich case, which said that a person was entitled to legal representation in order to get a fair trial, was given effect to in the Milat case by saying that public defenders were an appropriate and suitable means of providing that legal defence by the State.

The Hon. J. R. JOHNSON: I refer the Attorney to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 178, subprogram 20.2.4, District Court, and page 180, subprogram 20.2.5, Compensation Court. Are the financial arrangements for John Maddison Tower proceeding as indicated in the formula by the former Government? Is the project, court accommodation strategy, also proceeding as planned?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: No. I regret that the promises made by the former Government in relation to the John Maddison Tower have proved to be false and empty. Various former justice Ministers, including Terry Griffiths and Wayne Merton, and even the former Premier, John Fahey, lauded the John Maddison Tower deal, promising great savings - savings of $3 million a year according to Mr Fahey - that could grow to $5.5 million a year according to Mr Merton. Now, just over two years later, following the abolition of the Department of Courts Administration, the Attorney General's Department finds there are to be no savings at all. And that is only the beginning of the whole sorry mess. My department has advised me that the plan is not saving money, but costing money - money that was never budgeted for: an additional $2.7 million a year. But the most bizarre feature of this very resistible deal is the part that kills off the building.

The contract for this state-of-the-art court complex provides that the whole shebang has to be demolished in 40 years when the lease expires; not when someone else offers the Government an offer it cannot refuse, and especially not when the government of the day decides that the building has fulfilled its usefulness and that it has enough money to build a brand new court complex in the heart of Sydney. The head lease for the John Maddison Tower declares, "The lessee must deliver up the land at the expiration of the lease . . . having demolished and cleared the building from the land, leaving a clean and level site." From the Government which brought you the sentence indication program comes the amazing, magical Fahey Government's fantastic disappearing courtroom drama - the courtroom equivalent of Eastern Creek. It is a titanic of a deal.

In August 1992 Mr Griffiths said, "This building represents the way in which government facilities will be constructed in the future . . . it is not an asset sale and does not cost us a cent." It was not exactly a great asset gain either, and it will cost us much more than a cent. I assume the former justice Minister's comments were naive, because surely he did not mean that all future government deals would end up before the Auditor-General, as this one is about to. This Government, the inheritor of coalition errors galore, has now been forced to order a review of the deal by the Attorney General's Department in conjunction with Public Works and Services. The Auditor-General is planning his own review, hot on the heels of the first, which is expected to be completed in about a month.

The contracts for the project were signed by the former Attorney General, Mr Hannaford, on 30 June 1993. The former Premier approved the project in March 1993. The John Maddison Tower is built on land owned by the Attorney General's Department. The building is leased from the lessors, Downing Tower A Proprietary Limited and Downing Tower B Proprietary Limited, for an initial term of 25 years, after which the department can either vacate the building or negotiate a further term of 15 years. Lease payments began on 1 July 1995 at a rate of $4.33 million per annum. These payments are subject to increase by the highest consumer price index for the relevant quarter and are payable quarterly. The lease also provides that the department is responsible for the building's maintenance at an estimated cost of $600,000 per year.

My department advises that, while the financial estimates for the project declared that there would be rental savings of about $1 million a year, the truth is that it will actually cost the department an additional approximately $2.7 million a year. The project was approved by then Premier Fahey on the expectation that the former Department of Courts Administration would absorb the rental costs of the project into its existing budget. But that is not all. The former Government's plans to relocate courts to the complex has also failed to come off as planned. It was originally planned that the Land and Environment Court would join the District Court in this brave new complex. However, there was a lack of proper consultation with the planned users of the building, and after the contract was signed it was discovered that this was not practicable.

To incorporate the Land and Environment Court the plans for the building would have had to be altered at a cost of $2.4 million. The former Government had also apparently forgotten to make any plans for the vacated District Court premises in Hospital Road and King Street. The Department has now developed an accommodation strategy for the vacated court buildings and has submitted a proposal to Treasury for the refurbishment of Windeyer Chambers to house the Land and Environment Court at a cost of $3 million and
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incorporated the additional costs for the JMT into the department's financial reform package. The department expects that its plans to move the Compensation Court into the JMT in January will result in savings of $1.6 million.

The Hon. J. R. JOHNSON: I refer the Attorney to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, subprogram 20.1.3, the line for the Victims Compensation Tribunal, at page 163. What action is being taken to focus on the rehabilitation of victims of violent crime, including the provision of appropriate counselling services?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: Included in the main purposes of the legislative amendments presently being drafted for the Government's consideration are proposals to: introduce a statutory charter of rights for victims of crime; establish a victims of crime bureau which will provide support and referral services to victims of crime and coordinate the delivery of victims support and counselling services by government and community agencies; and reform the victims compensation scheme to focus on the rehabilitation of victims of violent crime in order that the genuine needs of victims are met at a reasonable cost to the community. The proposed victims of crime bureau, which would be staffed by social workers and administrative staff, would provide information, support and referral for victims of crime; coordinate the delivery of victims' support and counselling services; and oversee the implementation of the charter of rights, including handling complaints about alleged breaches of charter obligations.

The bureau will initially be required to assess existing victim support services and identify any areas where there appears to be unnecessary duplication or underservicing. It is envisaged that a service delivery database will be developed. The bureau will ensure that victims who wish to prepare victim impact statements have appropriate means to do so. As well, it will monitor the use and effectiveness of such statements. The bureau will also advise victims of their rights to be informed of an offender's impending release from custody and will assist victims to arrange to have their details recorded in the victims register maintained by the Department of Corrective Services.

Under the proposed legislation, all victims of crime will automatically be entitled to two hours of independent counselling, which may be used for preparation of an assessment report for any application for continued counselling or for inclusion within an application for compensation. It is envisaged that applicants may select a counsellor of their choosing from a list of accredited service providers maintained by the victims of crime bureau. On the basis of the assessment report, further counselling - up to a maximum of 20 hours - may be approved by the bureau. An applicant may submit for additional counselling beyond 20 hours. It is anticipated that the tribunal will seek the assistance of the bureau in having such claims professionally assessed.

This is all in stark contrast to the performance of the previous Government in relation to victims, whereby the Crimes Act was amended some considerable time ago to facilitate, apparently, victim impact statements being introduced into the sentencing process, but no resources were ever provided to assist with that process, and the section was never proclaimed. Why the legislation was amended, then put on the shelf, left in limbo, never to be actually introduced, is somewhat mysterious, but we have budgeted for and taken positive, tangible steps to counsel and assist the victims of crime, whilst retaining appropriate legal principles in our criminal justice system; not distorting the criminal justice process, but taking account of the needs or requirements of victims in that process.

The Hon. J. R. JOHNSON: I refer to the Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research, which appears at subprogram 20.1.1 on page 157 of Budget Paper No. 3. Why is it necessary to conduct annual crime and safety surveys? What is the cost of these surveys? Why does your department not rely on the crime statistics collected by the police?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: The crime and safety surveys conducted by the Australian Bureau of Statistics on behalf of the Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research are household crime victim surveys. A random sample of households is selected, in this case the same sample as for the ABS labour force survey, and members of the household, those aged 15 years and over, are requested to complete a questionnaire and return it to the ABS by mail. The questions ask about the respondents' experiences as victims of crime in the previous 12 months. The survey is sponsored by the Attorney General's Department and the New South Wales Police Service and costs $150,000 each year. The two departments each pay 50 per cent of the cost of the survey. The crimes covered by the survey are break and enter; attempted break and enter; motor vehicle theft; robbery; assault; and sexual assault. One nominated member of the household is asked about household crime, that is, break and enter, and motor vehicle theft. Each member of the household aged 15 years and over is asked about personal crime, that is robbery and assault, and each female member of the household aged 18 years or over is asked about sexual assault.

The information gathered allows the bureau to assess trends in recorded crime over time. This is not possible at present in relation to statistics obtained by the police. In April 1994 the Police Service implemented their new computerised operational police system, otherwise known as COPS. Unfortunately, criminal offence data recorded under the system previously used by the police is not compatible with COPS and it is not possible, therefore, to assess trends in crime recorded by the police over time periods which include both pre-COPS and COPS data. In these circumstances the crime and safety survey provides the only available measure of trends in crime. The
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crime and safety surveys have other advantages as well. They provide totally independent, objective and reliable information which is not vulnerable to variations in public willingness to report offences to police nor to changes in police procedures for recording offences reported to them. That is not to say that police statistics are not of value for the bureau's purposes. They often provide insight into the interpretation of recorded crime statistics and should, accordingly, be viewed as complementary to the information obtained by the crime and safety surveys.

The Hon. B. H. VAUGHAN: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 182, subprogram 20.2.6. What is the extent of outstanding fines and penalties imposed by the Local Court?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: The Government has inherited a major debt in the form of outstanding unpaid fines, court fees and victims compensation levies throughout New South Wales. As at 30 June 1995, there was $23,632,535 owing to the State in the form of unpaid fines, fees and levies. During the financial year to 30 June 1995, clerks of the Local Court issued 180,689 warrants for unpaid fines with a total value of $43,856,753. In that year, the clerks referred 48,573 penalties to the Roads and Traffic Authority to enforce by threat of licence or registration cancellation. In this way, $3,264,559 was collected. The Government has identified fine default as a problem area, and it did so even while in opposition. Now we are in government we are doing something about it, in contrast to the former Government's attitude that has already cost the State many millions of dollars.

Imprisonment of fine defaulters is another area of concern, as it is no solution to the problem, and simply ends up costing taxpayers more money. An interdepartmental working party has been set up to examine the workings of the fine default system and develop new procedures which will increase revenue and reduce the excessive delays currently being experienced in the collection of fines. One of the difficulties about fine default collection is the time lapse between the imposition of the fine and the substantial attempt to enforce it. That has psychological and other difficulties in relation to the offender. It is more difficult to extract that fine years after the event than it would be if the process were swifter and more efficient. But there are all kinds of problems in the enforcement of fines. We want to seek to efficiently enforce fines without putting people in prison for fine default. It is that process we have put in train in order to set up a system that will achieve that goal.

The Hon. S. B. MUTCH: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 178. The estimated revenue to be derived from District Court fees in 1995-96 has increased by approximately 40 per cent to $4.123 million. As I believe the number of cases is not expected to increase, in what area will there be a significant increase in filing fees this year? How do you justify such increases, given that with new technology they should probably decrease?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: The answer is essentially twofold: first, the proposed imposition of filing fees in relation to the motor accidents scheme that I addressed earlier this morning; and, second, the expected increase in litigation. But essentially it is the former, the introduction of motor accident filing fees, that will lead to the increases in revenue.

The Hon. S. B. MUTCH: I refer to page 178 of Budget Paper No. 3. Minor user charges have decreased dramatically, by nearly 1,000 per cent. What new charges are you planning, and how do you justify this significant increase? Minor user charges seem extraordinarily high.

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: I am advised that the answer to the question essentially lies in accounting differences. The increase in revenue is due to a change in accounting treatment for fees received from other organisations for services provided. Apparently these fees were formerly credited to expenditure, so it is really an accounting charge.

The Hon. S. B. MUTCH: I refer to page 155, and to the grants and subsidies line item. Grants and subsidies will decrease by $1.5 million. What organisations will have their grants or subsidies reduced or eliminated?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: The principal difference is that in last year's budget Crimes Act compensation payments were made to Messrs Pohl, Lindsay and Rendell. Obviously, those payments do not need to be made again, and we hope that other like payments do not need to be made.

The Hon. S. B. MUTCH: No organisations will have their grants or subsidies affected?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: Not on my understanding, no.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: I return to a question asked by the Hon. A. G. Corbett in relation to the Legal Aid Commission fit out. As I understand your answer, you are proposing that $350,000 for the next 10 years will have to be repaid by legal aid for the fit out. Since fit out is a capital item and since Treasury normally makes a capital allocation to agencies of government, on what basis do you justify asking a non-profit organisation such as the Legal Aid Commission to repay $350,000 a year for capital, thereby reducing the amount otherwise available for legal aid?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: This was part of the arrangement that resulted in the move of the Legal Aid Commission to more acceptable premises. But the substantial answer, apart from questions of form and practice, is that the Legal Aid Commission will make from that move - which obviously required the fit out - rental savings of significantly more than the amount which it is required to remit to Treasury per annum. It will make rental savings in the order of $500,000 per annum. In other words, there is a net benefit to the
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Legal Aid Commission. May I give more details about this move of premises and the fit out of the Legal Aid Commission, since members are obviously interested in it. On 13 October the commission moved to new head office premises at 323 Castlereagh Street. The move will save $500,000 per annum in rental compared with the previous accommodation at Daking House.

A 10-year lease has been signed, and this will allow the Commission's accommodation costs to be contained over that period. The cost of the fit out was $3.5 million, funded mostly by means of a Treasury advance. This cost should be viewed in the context of the $500,000 rental savings which will be achieved over the 10-year period of the lease. The commission is required to pay the $3.5 million advance at the rate of $350,000 per annum. The repayment of such advances is not usually required of government agencies funded by the Consolidated Fund, but is part of the arrangement in this case. The extent of the fit out has been the minimum necessary to provide an efficient work place where the commission can deliver services to its clients and which fully meets building regulations and occupational health and safety requirements. The fit out was carefully monitored to ensure that it was completed within the budget. A senior officer was personally responsible for the management of the budget.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: I note from the Minister's answer that this type of payment is not usual. The Legal Aid Commission achieved a $500,000 a year productivity saving by this move. In view of the significant demands on legal aid, how do you, the Government and Treasury justify extracting from legal aid's budget $350,000 a year when that would normally not be required of any other government agency?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: The simple fact is that the Legal Aid Commission, its budget and its capacity therefore to fund legal aid, been substantially advantaged by the processes I have described. The rental savings obviously outstrip substantially the repayment program in relation to the fit out. In any event, the legal aid budget has been enhanced this year. We have improved the situation compared to what the previous Government was prepared to pay the Legal Aid Commission. The total amount of the new funding which the State Government provided to the commission was $1.3 million, and there is additional Commonwealth funding. There can be no legitimate complaint about the legal aid budget and the position of the Legal Aid Commission; it has been advanced. Its position has been substantially benefited by this budget.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: Correct me if I am wrong. You said there will be a saving of $500,000, but the Legal Aid Commission now has to pay $350,000 to Treasury, which is not required of any other agency. Yet you take the view that in the case of the Legal Aid Commission that is justified and you will not seek to have Treasury's decision reversed.

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: I am not affirming that no other agency is in a like position; I am not in a position to say that. What I am saying is that the package substantially advantages the Legal Aid Commission. The arrangement reached with Treasury puts the Legal Aid Commission in a much better position than it otherwise would have been. Not only has it got better premises but it has got more money to expend on legal aid, both through the rental savings that I have specified and through the budgetary enhancement that I have identified. There is no basis for complaint about the treatment of the Legal Aid Commission in this budget.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: Can the Minister reply at a subsequent time in writing to the Committee to confirm whether or not the Legal Aid Commission is in an exceptional position in having to repay this grant?

CHAIR: It is up to the Minister whether he wishes to take that question on notice.

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: I will take it on notice, because obviously it involves an analysis of agencies well beyond my portfolio.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: I return to the question you started to answer in regard to page 157 of Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, the line item referring to grants to organisations. The 1994-95 estimate was $492,000 and the actual expenditure was only $8,000. The 1995-96 estimate is $516,000. Can you explain the low expenditure of only $8,000 in 1994-95? Did any organisations that should have received grants or assistance miss out on such grants or assistance?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: No. It is basically because the program had just started. It had not got its grants programs up and running sufficiently in time. It will now do so. That is the reason for the stark underspending. It was a new body and it did not proceed as quickly as apparently was anticipated by the previous Government.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: It relates to juvenile crime prevention?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: The juvenile crime prevention area, that is right. My understanding is that this year the grants program will be fully utilised and that the appropriate amount of money - which you will see is an increase on that budgeted for in the previous budget - will be used, and will be used in a positive way.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: On page 161 of Budget Paper No. 3 the building industry task force is referred to. The budget estimate for 1994-95 was over $4 million and the actual expenditure was $4 million. The 1995-96 budget estimate is over $2 million. I understood the task force was being wound down or closed down. Why is there a budget allocation, and what percentage of that amount is paid to lawyers assisting the task force?

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The Hon. J. W. SHAW: It is true that the task force has been wound down, but it has been a gradual process, and ongoing expenditure has been required in order to deal with prosecutions and investigations which were under way. Task force employees have been working with the Director of Public Prosecutions and the police to continue those matters. I am sure the honourable member would agree it would have been inappropriate to suddenly cut off prosecutions and the like. That is the reason for the ongoing expenditure. As to a breakup between legal and other expenditure, I would need to take that on notice.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: It is basically continuing the cases that were under way, and no new cases will be coming through the task force?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: That is so. Any new allegations of criminality in the industry will be allocated to police and the DPP in the ordinary course of the criminal justice system.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: I refer to page 157, subprogram 20.1.1, Justice Policy and Planning, and the line item referring to activities: Aboriginal Justice Advisory Committee. Reference is made to a staff of one in 1994-95 and one in 1995-96. In view of the serious nature of the high rate of Aboriginal people in prisons, is that figure adequate, or is it covered in some other way, such as through the Aboriginal Legal Aid Service?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: The executive officer of that committee is a very conscientious officer and he is supported by backup from the legislation and policy division, so he has got resources. That position is in a satisfactory state. It is obviously important to monitor the recommendations of the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody. That is an ongoing program, but we will ensure that that officer is adequately resourced for his task.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: I refer to page 161 of Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, subprogram 20.1.2, Legal Services, and to the line item referring to operating expenses. Can you advise the allocation for the Aboriginal Legal Aid Service for 1995-96? Is there a breakdown for it? I cannot see it in the budget papers.

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: I am informed that the Aboriginal legal aid budget is essentially Commonwealth funded, so you will not find an allocation for Aboriginal legal aid here. We propose to establish and fund an Aboriginal women's legal aid service - and that is provided for in the budget - because of the perhaps unfortunate reality that Aboriginal women have argued, and I think justly, that they have not been getting sufficient representation out of the Commonwealth-funded Aboriginal legal aid budget.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: What is the allocation for Aboriginal women's legal aid?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: I will try to ascertain that for you in a moment, but can I also add that under the new public defenders legislation that went through Parliament recently, public defenders will be available to provide court representation for Aboriginal defendants. That is an important innovation. We have allocated $100,000 this year to begin the process for Aboriginal women's legal aid.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: On page 163, in the line item referring to the Anti-Discrimination Board, have you made any allocation of funds to meet the legal costs of people who are found not guilty by the tribunal and the complaint has been dismissed? Is there any provision in the budget to assist these people, even if a means test were applied?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: I think the question might refer more to the Equal Opportunity Tribunal. You will appreciate that these matters go to the Anti-Discrimination Board and a process of advice and conciliation is attempted. There probably are not great legal costs incurred at that stage, although I suppose there may be costs for advice and so on. It is really once you get to the EOT that you get into more formal legal processes and incur legal costs. Perhaps you are asking about the possibility of paying for the legal costs of applicants who are successful?

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: I understand there have not been any. That is why I asked whether provision had been made in the budget.

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: We will certainly look into it, but if there is no substantial track record of people not being paid their legal costs before the tribunal, it does not seem to be a substantial problem. I will take it into consideration, but I think the short answer to your question is that there is no budgetary allocation for that matter.

The Hon. A. G. CORBETT: On page 163 of Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, the line item referring to outputs, community justice centres, shows that a high percentage of mediation sessions have resulted in agreement. Can the Minister inform the Committee what accounts for this high rate of success?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: The honourable member is right in pointing to the success of mediation in relation to community justice centres. It is true that CJCs are playing an increasingly important role in the provision of mediation services throughout the wider community. I think that explains the matter which the honourable member raised. There has been a significant increase in the usage of community justice centres for a number of matters. Workplace disputes, disputes involving property damage, disputed ownership and debts, and goods and services all show a marked increase, indicating that CJCs seem to be providing a useful option for the resolution of matters which would
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otherwise go to adjudication. Final figures for the last financial year will be available shortly, but overall the interest in and use of the services provided by the centres continue to be strong. Indeed, there appears to be a trend emerging that more complicated family and business disputes are being resolved by CJCs.

As well as these increases in services already provided, CJCs were involved in a number of new programs. A close partnership with the Department of School Education commenced an innovative program of peer mediation in high schools in three pilot areas. A pre-release mediation program for inmates of correctional institutions and their families was developed in conjunction with the Department of Corrective Services. Through this scheme, families are assisted to develop realistic strategies for resuming life together and avoiding future conflict. Inclusion of CJCs in the model rules for incorporated associations has led to a consistent demand for service to community organisations.

[Time expired.]

The Hon. Dr MEREDITH BURGMANN: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, subprogram 20.1.1 and the line item referring to the legislation and policy division. Given the concerns that have been expressed about the Children (Parental Responsibility) Act, and in particular the disproportionate cost of its operation, do you intend to repeal it?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: The expressed intention of the former Government when it introduced the Children (Parental Responsibility) Bill was to address the incidence of juvenile crime and the perceived failure of parents and guardians to take responsibility for their children. The Act was assented to on 12 December 1994. Section 16 of the Act requires that as soon as possible after the period of one year following the date of assent to the Act, I, as Attorney General, should conduct a review of the Act to ascertain whether the policy objectives of the Act remain valid and whether the terms of the Act remain appropriate for securing those objectives. Most controversy concerning the Act would seem to centre on part 3. Under that part, police officers are given power to remove children from situations that may expose them to some risk and to take them home to their parents or to a prescribed place.

At the time the Act was debated it was recognised that there were a number of misgivings in relation to some provisions of the legislation. In particular, the potential for the powers granted to police officers to be misused and the potential for discrimination against disadvantaged families and young Aboriginal people in country towns led to expressions of concern. In response to those concerns, the decision was made to trial the operation of part 3 in the Orange and Gosford areas only. That trial commenced just before the last election on 13 March this year. While I have reached no conclusion as to the appropriateness of continuing the Act, there has been adverse publicity relating to its cost benefit, and I am certainly concerned about its efficacy.

Nevertheless I have recently approved the establishment of a committee which will be responsible for overseeing the evaluation of the legislation, and I will await its report before deciding what course to take. I might mention that the committee comprises representatives of both government and non-government agencies to ensure that the review has wide input. The committee is chaired by Mr Michael Hogan, and it is a broadly based and expert committee. I am sure that its advice will be both cogent and useful to the Government in deciding the future course of the Children (Parental Responsibility) Act.

The Hon. B. H. VAUGHAN: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 160, subprogram 20.1.2, outputs, Debt Recovery Office. How much debt was recovered by the Debt Recovery Office in the 1994-95 financial year. How does the amount recovered compare with projections for this financial year, bearing in mind that you need to know how many matters were on hand?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: A total of $1,522,388 was recovered in 1994-95. Of this amount, $666,580 represented Victims Compensation Tribunal matters and $1,268,467 were penalties and general matters. It is projected that the total amount to be recovered in 1995-96 will be $2,600,000 - up 70 per cent on last year - made up of $1,400,000 for victims compensation orders and $1,200,000 for penalty and general matters. There were 9,384 matters on hand as at 1 July 1995. The projection for the end of 1995-96 is 2,894 matters, despite the planned transfer of 7,000 matters from the Victims Compensation Tribunal. This represents a massive reduction in the number of matters on hand and is in line with the Government's commitment to greater efficiency.

[Short adjournment]

The Hon. Dr MEREDITH BURGMANN: I refer to subprograms 20.2.1 to 20.2.6. What has been done to reform jury management procedures, and will those measures result in cost savings?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: Two reports have recently been prepared with recommendations relating to jury service, the first by the Australian Institute of Judicial Administration and the second by a jury task force established at the request of the chief justice. The jury task force continues to operate as a standing committee with an ongoing role to monitor and review the operations of the jury system. The recommendations contained in these reports have now been considered and the majority of them have been accepted and have been, or will be, implemented. Many of these will improve conditions for jurors.

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In 1992 a new jury computer program was introduced. This enabled the Sheriff's office to collect more effective statistics which have been used to highlight the need to reduce the number of people called for jury duty. The need to reduce the number of people summoned and the number brought to court is being addressed in a number of ways. This efficiency drive is expected to save money and to help to pay for the first major increase in jurors fees in a number of years, which occurred in February this year when daily jury fees were increased from $46 to $66. I expect to introduce the cost saving reforms into the Parliament as soon as is practicable.

Appropriate amendments to the Jury Act 1977 which are designed to ensure that the sheriff is able to manage the jury system tightly and to match the number of jurors called to the number actually needed are currently under consideration. The specific issues that I am closely examining include clarifying the role of the sheriff as having sole responsibility for jury management; predetermining the eligibility of all persons to serve on a jury as soon as they are included on the jury role, rather than waiting until they are called; facilitating much greater liaison between the sheriff, court administrators and trial judges in coordinating jury management with listing procedures and case management schemes; giving judicial officers a discretion to discharge a jury when the court is satisfied the jurors are unlikely to agree on a verdict, rather than requiring discharge after six hours, as is the case now; and allowing the parties to a case to agree that the trial judge should determine issues of fact when a jury cannot agree, rather than resort to a retrial.

The jury task force has requested the cooperation of the Director of Public Prosecutions, the Managing Director of the Legal Aid Commission and the presidents of the Law Society and the Bar Association to ensure that their organisations do all that they can to ensure that the minimum number of people is called for jury duty. Close liaison with court staff has enabled the sheriff to assess more accurately the number of jurors actually required. A systematic review is made of the reasons that panels of jurors have been brought in but not used. This information is brought to the attention of the courts and other organisations mentioned to enable them to identify problems and to develop solutions. The initiatives introduced to date have had encouraging results, with an estimated 6,500 fewer prospective jurors having to attend court in 1995 than would otherwise have been required. With the control measures now in place, especially if supported by the proposed legislation, the number of persons required to attend for jury duty can be further reduced.

The Hon. B. H. VAUGHAN: There will always be a number of appeals against the Victims Compensation Tribunal. My reference is subprogram 20.1.3 on page 163. What is the cost to the department of such appeals?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: There were 1,317 appeals lodged against the decisions of the Victims Compensation Tribunal during 1994-95. This represents a massive 112 per cent increase on the number lodged in 1993-94, when there were only 621 such appeals. There were 126 appeals against the tribunal's refusal to grant leave to apply for compensation outside the two year statutory period. That compares with 54 such appeals in 1993-94. There have been some remarkable cases in which the court has awarded substantial compensation to people as long as 17 years after the alleged crime and after the alleged offender is dead and - may I say perhaps unnecessarily - unable to provide any evidence.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: Reverend the Hon. F. J. Nile asked you a question about legal aid salaries and the component for increases in salaries as a result of wage adjustments. If I understood your answer correctly, you said that within this budget allowance has been made for the increases, and I think you referred to the 7 per cent increase over the year. In view of the fact that the Treasury normally makes supplementary budget allocations to departments to meet wage rises, why does legal aid not have supplementary funding for that? Why are wage rises borne within the allocated budget?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: When I referred to 7 per cent I was referring to the aggregate salary increase that has been agreed between the Government and the relevant public sector unions. The budget obviously only allocates the components of that increase, which is in stages, relevant to the financial year. I am not necessarily saying that there is a 7 per cent component but whatever the relevant salary increase is. The view that has been taken throughout the allocations is that this is a known and projected increase, not an unexpected salary increase, because it is already determined and will apply in the future. It is for that reason that the budget contemplates it and provides for it without the necessity for special supplementation or additional Treasury grants during the period of the budget.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: In view of the slight increase in the legal aid budget, and taking into account the factors that you just raised, am I correct in assuming that there is no real increase in the legal aid budget this year?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: There is an increase in the legal aid budget this year, partly attributable to increased Commonwealth funding and partly attributable to an increased real allocation by the State Government. Even taking into account salary increases, there is an additional allocation for legal aid in this budget.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: Can the Minister indicate the real increase?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: That would require a calculation looking at inflationary effects and so on, and I am not in a position to do that at the moment.

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The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: Can the Minister take that on board and provide an answer in the future?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: Yes.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, program 20.2. There is an increase in funding to allow for an expansion of sitting hours and a night court. Can the Minister indicate how that funding will be used?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: The practical ways in which this will be introduced are still a matter of examination, although the Parramatta Local Court has already expanded registry hours. That is simply an example of the sort of phenomenon that will occur. So the process must be worked out but the budgetary allocation is there to allow for this sort of innovation, which I am sure all would agree will be welcomed by the community because it will enable people to go to the courts out of working hours. It also enables greater flexibility in the use of the courts and is an appropriate measure. So we have the budgetary allocation. We will implement it over the next few months and I am sure that the results will be seen to be reasonable.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: In relation to program 20.2, District Court, I understand that Chief Judge Blanch proposed to abolish the midyear vacations and put a submission seeking additional funding to allow the abolition of midyear vacations. I note that there is no budget allocation for that to occur. Does that mean that the proposal will not proceed this year.

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: It does not mean that. The Leader of the Opposition is correct in saying that the budget does not make an allocation for it. The matter is still under consideration and funds may be made available for it. I received a supplementary submission from the chief judge on the weekend. I am discussing the matter with him and my department is discussing it with Treasury. It remains a live issue and it may be that we can make additional funds or resources available for the District Court.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: Within the budget papers significant emphasis is put on the reduction of case backlogs and delays because of the acting judge program. Again, there is no allocation for an acting judge program. What position has been taken by the Government in relation to that?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: It is true that the funding for various acting judges was finite and the time specified in relation to those allocations has now expired. That does not mean that there is no prospect of appointing acting judges in various jurisdictions. For example, the very strategic plan to which the Leader of the Opposition referred in the previous question in relation to the District Court contemplated as perhaps its main thrust or as one of its components the idea of acting judges as a cost-effective way to reduce court lists. That is the very matter that remains under active consideration by the Government. I should note also that there remains one acting judge of the Supreme Court who is supported by Commonwealth funding. Whether that continues depends on negotiations with the Commonwealth, although I am sure the Leader of the Opposition would agree it is a formidable case for the Commonwealth to subsidise one or more judges of the Supreme Court on the basis that a reasonable percentage of the work that that court performs concerns Commonwealth legislation. There are also acting judges in the Compensation Court and it is proposed that will continue.

The Hon. S. B. MUTCH: Will the Attorney take a question on notice concerning the Crown Solicitor's office and the purchase of new computer equipment to make that organisation viable? The Gill-Byer report identified the purchase of computer equipment as being essential to the operations of the Crown Solicitor's office. Could the Attorney explain why no funds are available for that equipment to be purchased?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: I will take the question on notice and will be happy to supply an answer. It is a perfectly reasonable request. I understand that the Crown Solicitor will be in a position to borrow money - it now being essentially a commercial entity, a commercial law firm - to implement an information technology plan. We can be confident in the near future that the Crown Solicitor will be properly serviced by computer technology. I will provide further details to the honourable member in due course.

The Hon. S. B. MUTCH: Page 188 of Budget Paper No. 3, program 21.1, Judicial Commission of New South Wales, refers in a line item to acquisition of property, plant and equipment. Will that appropriation enable the Judicial Commission to supply the remainder of magistrates with computers to put them on line with the sentencing information system? A number of magistrates have yet to receive this service. Can the Attorney give an undertaking that these will be provided to those magistrates?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: It would be putting the matter too highly for me to give an undertaking, but it is certainly the intention to have magistrates on line with sentencing information during this financial year.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: Since magistrates deal with the vast majority of criminal cases, and as some do not have access to the sentencing indication system, how can we be satisfied that they will impose appropriate sentences when they do not have access to these computers?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: I am sympathetic to the point Mr Hannaford makes, though it must be said that for many hundreds of years courts sentenced people without the benefit of computers. I do not think the picture can be painted too dramatically. I am the first to agree that computer
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data available to the sentencing judge or magistrate is a valuable technique in the sentencing process. That is why I indicated that our aim is to have it made available. At the same time, it must be said that when a magistrate does not have an appropriate computer, he or she will be able to telephone or otherwise communicate to find out statistical data from the Judicial Commission regarding sentencing.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: Page 163 refers in a line item to outputs. Reference is made to community justice centres and the figures represent the anticipated number of files opened and number of mediation sessions, et cetera. For all the other line items listed on that page, such as the Victims Compensation Tribunal and the Anti-Discrimination Board, there are no figures for 1995-96 but rather the notation "no", which I understand means not available. Is that right?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: Yes.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: If those figures are not available, how can you estimate your potential budget? I appreciate that they have to be estimates because you do not know how many people will apply, but why have you not included rounded figures of what you anticipate will be the demand?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: Although one can estimate, or perhaps guesstimate, figures for tribunals such as the Anti-Discrimination Board and the Victims Compensation Tribunal, the view was taken that these figures were so unreliable and, in a sense, so inherently unpredictable that they were inappropriate for budgetary papers. Community justice centres have been a more predictable and evolutionary development in the provision of legal services. Perhaps it is a difficult distinction to draw, but the view was that those figures were useful and sufficiently reliable to be included in the budget papers. I accept it is a fairly arbitrary line to draw, whether the figure is sufficiently statistically valid to be included. I am informed that this is the first time statistics of this kind have been included in the budget papers. No doubt that process will evolve and we hope to give the public and members of Parliament more information in future budgets.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: At page 160 the line item that refers to the number of time to pay arrangements shows a dramatic increase from 297 in 1994-95 to 7,327 in 1995-96; the budget has increased from $2.3 million to $42.6 million. What is the explanation for that? Does that come from some other area in your department?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: The explanation essentially is that about 7,000 matters that were before the Victims Compensation Tribunal have been shifted to the Debt Recovery Office. That is because the view is that it is a more efficient way to manage those time payments and that recovery process. It is really a shifting of one item to another, rather than any massive change in principle.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: Does that mean the department and not the Victims Compensation Tribunal will be chasing up outstanding debts?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: That is correct.

The Hon. B. H. VAUGHAN: I invite your attention to Budget Paper No. 3 at page 163, the subprogram, Human Rights Services, and particularly to the line item referring to outputs, which includes community justice centres. Given the important role of community justice centres, will this year's allocation of funding allow for expansion of community justice centres not just in the metropolitan area but also in rural areas?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: During the last financial year community justice centres selected and trained panels of mediators in three country areas, namely, Bourke, Moree and Wagga Wagga, in order to provide appropriately trained convenors for the community youth conferencing scheme. Having trained those people, there is now an opportunity to expand their role to include general disputes in their area. To date the only direct additional cost is extra fees for the mediators. For these remote areas the cost of supporting and supervising the mediator panel may be able to be absorbed from within the existing budget. Of course, there is a continuing demand for CJC services from many other rural areas and growth areas such as the central coast.

I understand that in recent months requests have been received from a number of regional centres seeking access to the services provided by CJCs. This raises issues of the most appropriate distribution of CJC services and the form in which those services can be delivered in a cost-effective way. These issues will need to be addressed and my department is presently considering them. No doubt there is an important role for community justice centres in regional and country areas, provided they can be structured and coordinated within economic constraints.

The Hon. Dr MEREDITH BURGMANN: I refer you to program 20.1, Legal Services, Policy and Planning and the line item for the department's community relations division. What will the Attorney do to ensure a procedure is established for reviewing convictions as a result of admissions made in the course of the Royal Commission into the New South Wales Police Service?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: In proceedings before the Royal Commission into the New South Wales Police Service admissions made by serving or former police officers about the conduct of particular prosecutions or practices generally have given rise to concern about convictions that may have been secured as a result of the evidence of those officers. I have put in place a procedure to examine those cases in which such a concern arises and to ensure that they are dealt with appropriately. An arrangement has already been made that the
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commissioner will refer to me any matters that cause him disquiet in relation to a conviction. The Crimes Act 1900 contains provisions in part 13A that will enable such matters to be appropriately reviewed. The process will be coordinated through the community relations division.

The procedure envisaged is as follows. Officers of the community relations division - CRD - will refer to senior Crown law officers, that is, the Crown Solicitor and the Crown Advocate, any matters referred to me by the commissioner. That will take place on the day applications are received, in the same way that applications for section 474 inquiries are presently processed. Where appropriate, the assistance of junior counsel will also be sought. If any individual petitioner approaches me for a review of conviction, rather than apply to the court for an inquiry under section 474E, the matter will be treated as a petition under section 474C and similarly will be referred to Crown law officers for advice as to the merits of the application. At the same time the applicant - or, in the case of matters referred to by the royal commission, the person affected - will be put in contact with the Legal Aid Commission. If an application is made to the court it will need to be dealt with pursuant to section 474E, in the same way as applications are handled at the present time.

It may be anticipated, though, that the court will nominate an appropriate justice to deal with matters expeditiously, rather than allocate matters to judicial officers. This has happened in the past, as was the case with the commissioning of former Justice Slattery under the former section 475 to review the Kalajzich conviction. I will also be considering the need for urgent amendments to the legislation to enable the scope of such inquiries to be better focused or more narrowly confined to the real issues rather than the broad, indeed untrammelled, review of the criminal case that the section currently contemplates. In appropriate cases a recommendation will be made for the matter to be referred to the Court of Criminal Appeal. Those cases will be when the material causes some unease or disquiet in allowing the conviction to stand.

The test is expounded in R. v Rendell (1987) 32A A Crim R 243 and Varley v Attorney General (NSW) 1987 8 NSW LR 30. In some cases the matters referred from the commissioner may be sufficient to generate the requisite disquiet. In others the weight that may have been given to the tainted evidence will need to be taken into account, particularly when it was not the only evidence which contributed to the conviction. In other words you need, to use the fashionable word, to disaggregate the tainted evidence from the residue of the case and ask whether, but for the tainted evidence, the conviction might have been secured. Where appropriate, further information will be sought from the Director of Public Prosecutions or the Police Service, and the assistance of the Director of Public Prosecutions and the commissioner in such matters is being sought.

At present, a number of applications have been received by the department, and these are being assessed in accordance with this procedure. It would be premature to discuss any individual case until a firm view is formed on whether advice can be provided that these cases should proceed to formal reviews. Within the department's usual allocation is an amount to fund such inquiries. That amount is protected as any savings in that line item are not available for general expenditure, and any overexpenditure is met from Treasury supplementation. At this very early stage it is impossible to predict the financial impact of these cases.

The Hon. Dr MEREDITH BURGMANN: I refer to page 172 of Budget Paper No. 3 subprogram 20.2.2, the funding of the Industrial Court. What initiatives have the Industrial Court and its registry undertaken to improve their efficiency?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: The Industrial Court registry is also the registry for the Chief Industrial Magistrate's court. The court registry provides support to the judiciary and magistracy. It accepts court documents for filing, performs listing functions, gives procedural advice based on the court rules and performs post-judgment activities such as the recording of orders and the distribution and enforcement of judgments. The court registry also performs administrative tasks relating to corporate services such as judicial accommodation, travel, staffing and other requirements, building maintenance, staff administration, computer system administration and collection of management information.

Apart from the everyday services, the court registry provides an extended service to its customers and other stakeholders by making its services available outside normal operating hours upon request, and by the staff of the registry maintaining a flexible and cooperative approach to service delivery. Both the judges of the Industrial Court and the Chief Industrial Magistrate hear matters in country locations, and the court registry provides administrative assistance for those regional sittings. In relation to the Chief Industrial Magistrate, the registry provides a staff member to accompany the magistrate on country trips.

The court registry has recently implemented a system of enforcement of orders in the Chief Industrial Magistrate's court pursuant to the Justices (Fine Default) Amendment Act 1994. This means that when enforcing orders made against individuals, a more extensive range of options will be available, including community service orders, periodic detention, imprisonment or recovery through sale of goods. It is expected that the new enforcement regime will increase compliance with court orders. The Chief Industrial Magistrate's jurisdiction is working effectively. I was glad that we were able to prevail on the previous Government to maintain the Chief Industrial Magistrate as an
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officer under the Industrial Relations Act when the previous Government had proposed to abolish the position and simply relegate these matters to the general run of cases in the local courts. The CIM's jurisdiction is well worth defending.

I have some answers, arising mostly from the questions from Reverend the Hon. F. J. Nile. I can give some more information about three questions. The honourable member asked a question concerning the grant of $20,000 to the Homicide Victims Support Group for the establishment of a victims' recovery centre. I am informed that in 1994 the former Premier approved a grant of $20,000 to the Homicide Victims Support Group for the establishment of the victims recovery centre and to support the operation of the centre for its first year. The funding for that grant was provided by the Premier's Department. Subsequently the Director-General of the Attorney General's Department was asked to undertake an evaluation of the program. An evaluation proposal has been negotiated between the department and the Homicide Victims Support Group.

The initial evaluation report is due to be completed after the centre's first six months of operation. That is the Ebony House Centre, which became operational in 1995. That report is still some months away, with a further report to be provided towards the end of the first year of operation. The question of future government funding for the centre will be addressed in the light of the evaluation of the project being undertaken by my department. The Attorney General's Department is not provided with funds for the making of community grants except in the area of juvenile crime prevention, which I detailed in an earlier answer.

In relation to complaints to the Anti-Discrimination Board about homosexual vilification, I am told that there have been 34 such complaints to date. In 1993-94 there were 11, in 1994-95 there were 19, and since 1 July 1995 there have been four such complaints. That is a total of 34. The honourable member also asked about funding for the building industry task force. I am informed that the amount allocated for the BITF from 1 July 1995 to 31 December 1995, a period of six months, was $2.3 million. The amount allocated to lawyers on a salary basis is $292,000. That does not include unused annual leave entitlements, which can only be calculated when the BITF is finally wound up.

CHAIR: I point out to Reverend the Hon. F. J. Nile and the Hon. A. G. Corbett that those answers will replace requests that information be provided on notice.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: I refer to staffing, as set out on page 217 of Budget Paper No. 3. In view of the considerable emphasis that has been placed in the budget papers on ensuring compliance with industrial laws, will the Minister justify why the line item relating to industrial compliance shows the average staffing of that unit has been reduced from 98 to 87, a reduction of nearly 10 per cent in staff?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: It needs to be recognised that the effective full-time staffing numbers are averages and the figures need to be considered in that context. They may not necessarily be related precisely to numbers of staff at any particular time because vacancies may not be filled for certain periods and additional staff may be employed during other periods. The staffing numbers recorded within the private sector industrial relations program include staffing details for the manager of compliance, manager of operations and their support staff, the legal prosecutions branch, industrial licensing and the industrial inspectors and clerical staff employed in local offices throughout the State.

During 1994-95 additional staff were engaged from within the department to supply additional resources for the implementation of a backlog reduction strategy, which included the establishment of a task force. Temporary staff were also used to replace staff on the task force. The task force completed its operations in June 1995. Decreases in EFT, identified in the budget papers, are partly due to the completion of a backlog reduction strategy and cessation of the task force activities. In addition, in 1994-95 the staffing numbers included corporate services staff under the former Department of Industrial Relations, Employment, Training and Further Education. The staffing numbers for 1995-96 for the new Department of Industrial Relations have been reduced by a number of corporate services positions as this function is now mostly provided by the new Department of Training and Education Co-ordination.

The legal prosecutions branch aims to conciliate and negotiate the settlement of complaints regarding breaches of awards and legislation and to prosecute breaches of legislation and awards. An industry licensing branch administers the licensing and regulation of shop trading hours, private employment agents and entertainment industry agents. Industrial inspectors investigate complaints of breaches of industrial legislation and awards, promote voluntary compliance with legislation and awards through dissemination of information and respond to local inquiries. The industrial inspectors are employed in local offices throughout the State.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: Will the Minister give an assurance, therefore, arising from that answer, that the number of inspectors in the field will, in fact, not be reduced and will be maintained?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: There is no plan to decrease the number of inspectors who are in the field doing that important work.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: In regard to the line item relating to industrial information, in view of the importance of providing information to the public about its rights and entitlements, particularly with the emphasis that is placed on enterprise agreements in the budget papers, how do you justify the reduction of staff in that area?

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The Hon. J. W. SHAW: Again, we are dealing with average staffing numbers, not with absolute or actual numbers. The question focuses on information provided by the award advisory service, which obviously aims to inform the public about industrial awards, agreements and the like. We aim to continue that service in a more efficient way. Whilst the staffing levels of that service have fluctuated over the years, so has its efficiency. There is no necessary correlation between the number of people working in the award advisory service and efficiency in the delivery of that service. We are actively pursuing a number of options to improve the quality and scope of the service to meet customers' needs. Those options include expanding the hours of operation; upgrading telephone facilities to include interactive voice-recording messaging; surveying customers and evaluating their needs; and undertaking a benchmarking study with other similar providers in the public and private sectors for best practice models. We have no plans to reduce the role of the award information service; rather, we want to enhance it and make it more efficient.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: In view of the Minister's answers to the last two questions, and because of the need to establish a task force to deal with the backlog of complaints, how does the Minister justify the priority which has been given in the budget papers to increasing by nine the number of staff to give him policy advice, rather than increasing the number of staff to be used in the compliance area?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: One of the reasons for the statistical change in the number of employees in the compliance area is that an extra team of officers - that is, five employees - was engaged on a temporary basis in August 1994. Funding for that team was provided by the reallocation of increased revenues in 1994-95. That temporary position is subject to review. As I said earlier, the backlog reduction strategy task force has completed its work. It was a temporary measure put in place by the former Government. You have to look at staffing changes in light of the fact that that task force was intended to have, and did have, a finite life. It has now completed its work. In relation to the allocation of staff for policy, we will need an adequate level of staffing for some quite pioneering efforts in the policy area.

The honourable member would know that we have given priority, for example, to the women's equity bureau and the need to develop strategies and plans in relation to increased equity in the work force, wages and conditions as a result of that bureau. We have enhanced that bureau in terms of its resources and staffing. Obviously, we will also need additional staff to enable the smooth and efficient implementation of the industrial relations Act which we hope the Parliament will pass later this year. Industrial relations policy services staff are involved in a number of key tasks for the department: research and analysis for current and developing issues in industrial relations; provision of policy advice to the Minister and senior departmental officers; representation of the views of the Government before industrial tribunals, interdepartmental bodies and other relevant bodies; submissions to inquiries into industrial relations legislation; and associated matters. This Government intends to be very active in all these industrial relations policy areas. We obviously need adequate staff resources in order to give effect to those policies.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: How many people will be employed in the women' equity bureau? What is the budget allocation for that?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: The honourable member may have seen an advertisement last weekend for the head of that bureau. When that position is filled on a merit basis, obviously the head of the bureau will have a substantial input into the precise structure and staffing levels of the bureau. So it is a matter currently under review and dependent upon the filling of that position. The approximate staffing level is 10.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: Again in relation to operating expenses, will the Minister confirm that 28 vocational guidance centres are operating within his department?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: I cannot confirm that. That service has gone to the portfolio of the Minister for Education and Training.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: So it is out of the Minister's portfolio?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: It is out of my bailiwick.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: I refer to page 219 of Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1. In view of the significant role that the Minister has outlined of the industrial registry, particularly in assisting in the early resolution of industrial disputes, how is the Minister able to justify a 10 per cent reduction in the number of staff for the registry?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: As the honourable member would know, the legislative proposal is to amalgamate or reincorporate the Industrial Court and the commission. It is envisaged that there will be both cost and staff savings in that amalgamation process. There is an element of duplication in the current separation of the industrial registry and the registry servicing the court. We believe that there will be savings in that regard. There is also a saving in relation to corporate services, with corporate services for this department being essentially undertaken by the Department of Training and Education Co-ordination under a contractual arrangement.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: In view of the fact that the administration of public employment obligations has been transferred from
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the Minister's department to the Premier's Department, will the Minister explain why he has retained his public sector appeal role and why 14 staff have been allocated for that role?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: I note that a reduction of one member of staff is contemplated, but those staff service the Government and Related Employees Appeal Tribunal and the Transport Appeal Board. So the administrative back-up for those two tribunals, as it were, GREAT and TAB, remain in my portfolio. The reduction of staffing figures by one reflects that change and the way in which corporate services are dealt with, a matter to which I referred earlier.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: Page 215 of Budget Paper No. 3 refers to grants and subsidies under the operating statement. In 1994-95 actual grants were $1,164,000. In 1995-96 those grants have been reduced to $183,000. How have these savings been achieved? Have some organisations been taken off the list? Are any of those grants or subsidies going to trade unions?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: I will answer the last part of the honourable member's question first. Whether grants are given to trade unions or employer bodies during the financial year will depend upon the merits of the application and the appropriateness of the grant being made. I think it would be quite within contemplation that both employer bodies and trade unions could mount a solid case for some grant or subsidy to be given. If they can, I assure the honourable member that the matter will be dealt with objectively and in accordance with due process. I turn to the more precise technical point that the honourable member initially raised. As he has pointed out, there was an overexpenditure in relation to grants and subsidies as specified in the budget papers. We have actually estimated a much more modest sum for grants and subsidies compared to that either budgeted for or actually expended by the previous Government.

I am informed that the overexpenditure in grants and subsidies relates to the work and family strategy project, for which the department received supplementary funding from Treasury of $0.231 million and internal funding for the enterprise agreements project of $0.060 million. The accounting treatment of the work and family strategy project results in an internal payment to the department of $0.149 million, which is offset by a corresponding revenue amount, the net effect being a payment of $0.231 million. The grants and subsidies payments include a payment to the Coal Industry Tribunal for the State's share of the operating costs of the tribunal, that is, $0.617 million. The estimate for 1994-95 was $0.630 million. As the honourable member would know, we have taken steps to abolish the Coal Industry Tribunal. That is set up under joint Federal-State legislation. That has been abolished, so there will be savings in that area. That, in part, accounts for the more modest budgetary estimate in relation to grants and subsidies for this year.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: Page 217 of Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, refers to the Coal Industry Tribunal as a separate line item. There is no figure against it for 1995-96. You are saying that that has actually been transferred into the grants and subsidies?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: No. It is really more that the Coal Industry Tribunal has been abolished. Joint Commonwealth-State funding does not need to go on; it has been absorbed into the Federal Industrial Relations Commission. We are no longer responsible for any expenditure in that regard.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: Does that mean that all claims have been finalised, or that they are being finalised elsewhere?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: My understanding is that the Commonwealth legislation meant that all claims would have been transferred to the Federal jurisdiction.

The Hon. A. G. CORBETT: Under activities on page 217 of Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, there is reference to workplace reform. Is it correct to assume that increased productivity would be one goal of workplace reform?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: Absolutely. We want to step up the workplace reform program and get, in an equitable way, productivity gains. But we stress that where we have productivity advancement, where government assists enterprises, whether small or large, to make productivity gains, we want to do so in a consultative way so that employees are well treated and their basic industrial rights are protected. That is central to the industrial relations strategy of this Government. Workplace reform is broad in scope. Indeed, the library of the Department of Industrial Relations has been included as part of the department's work in this area because it provides information relating to workplace reform in a wide range of organisations.

The library also has a workplace information centre which provides a variety of reference services on topics related to industrial relations and workplace reform to external clients on a fee-for-service basis. Enterprise bargaining is a means by which organisations may choose to implement workplace reform. Staffing levels in this area have been maintained. Staff in the enterprise agreements advisory service encourage organisations wishing to undertake enterprise bargaining to adopt a best practice approach and to consider a broad range of workplace reform measures in their negotiations. However, I am sure the honourable member will appreciate that, when we are successful in revamping the legislative framework for industrial relations in New South Wales, we might have to provide a re-education program for those staff concerned to advise on enterprise bargains as we will have a somewhat different model of enterprise bargaining from the one implemented under the 1991 legislation. But the short answer to your
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question is that we have to put some more resources into an effective unit to encourage workplace reform and productivity improvement with equity to the employees.

The Hon. A. G. CORBETT: I ask a supplementary question. Given that work-based child care has obvious benefits for productivity and the wellbeing of workers, has the Government allocated any money in its operating expenses to promote this activity?

CHAIR: I think the Hon. A. G. Corbett is drawing a longbow in relation to the budget estimates before him. It is a matter for the Minister but I would say that the question is outside the bounds of the Estimates Committee for Industrial Relations and, in particular, the line item to which he is referring.

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: With respect, Madam Chair, your ruling is essentially correct: the question goes beyond the industrial relations portfolio. But I can indicate a general sympathy for the point the member makes. As one of its major concerns, the women's equity bureau will have development of policies in relation to work and family, and how flexible working arrangements can facilitate a better family life. It is something in which we take an interest in relation to policy development, but in terms of actual delivery of child care at the workplace or otherwise, that really falls outside the relatively specialised scope of the Department of Industrial Relations.

The Hon. A. G. CORBETT: I was looking at it in terms of the job description and the 12 people engaged in workplace reform.

CHAIR: The Minister has answered the question.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: Following up that general question and the earlier one by the Leader of the Opposition, I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, line item industrial compliance, page 217, which I assume covers the role of inspectors. How many inspectors are engaged, particularly in areas where there have been quite a number of complaints about the exploitation of women, in particular Asian women in piecework in the clothing industry? Would a number of inspectors be allocated to that area? Does that have a priority in your budget?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: The member focuses on a matter of obvious concern, the exploitation, particularly of migrant women, in the clothing and other industries, the use of piecework and exploitative labour. Obviously as the member says and acknowledges, it is part of the task of inspectors to do what they can to police the award standards and other industrial standards to protect people from exploitation of that kind. I will ensure, by recommendation, that that is regarded as a priority area for the department and for the inspectorate. No inefficiencies of numbers of inspectors will be allowed to impede upon that important task. Specifically in answer to the honourable member's question, a project was undertaken which employed two project officers, focusing particularly on the Vietnamese clothing industry. It was regarded as a project that had little positive outcome.

In fact, only three prosecutions were made for infringement of the Industrial Relations Act, resulting in fines in the order of $800, so it was not a particularly impressive or successful program. I am not saying that to make some sort of political point, but we must have better strategies than that. It is easier to state the problem than to apply a solution. Because a lot of these operations are underground, cash-money operations they are hard to track down. I would be the first to acknowledge how difficult it is, but I will be doing everything within my power to ensure that the industrial laws are complied with. A compliance group, formed by the Director-General of the Department of Industrial Relations, has been set up to consider and act on various reports prepared by the strategy group, and the hidden cost of fashion report of the Textile Clothing and Footwear Union of Australia.

One of the objectives of the compliance group is to draft an industry code of responsible practice. An important aspect of the strategy of the Government is to provide trade unions with reasonable rights of access to employers' premises so that wage records and related documents can be inspected, and workplace safety standards assessed. Responsible employers do not object to that sort of union access to look at wages records. It is an important source of superintendence of fair standards, quite apart from the resources that the Government can provide. I hope that the honourable member will give favourable consideration to that enhanced right of entry when he sees the industrial relations bill before the House.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: I refer the Attorney to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, subprogram 24.1.2, line item sale of transcripts, page 219. You anticipate a source of income of $260,000. What is the price per page? I am aware of the user-pays principle, but does it become obstructive to the efficient working of that area?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: My understanding is that the transcript cost in the industrial relations area is levied on the same basis as transcripts in the other courts and tribunals through the Attorney General's Department, so that there is parity. As you correctly say, it is a user-charge type revenue. It is levied for Industrial Relations Commission transcripts, copies of registered enterprise agreements and copies of registered industrial organisations rules. The revenue will obviously be subject to any changes that the legislation might effect in litigation within the industrial relations jurisdiction. I have been concerned about the cost of transcript for some time and I can indicate to the honourable member that the Attorney General's
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Department is undertaking a general review of those sorts of charges to make sure that they are equitable and reasonable. We will ensure that we include charges in relation to industrial transcripts in that more general review being conducted by the Attorney General's Department.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: Do you know the actual price per page?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: No, but we could ascertain it.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: There must be some figure that the department works on?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: Certainly.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: I am trying to ascertain whether there is a profit, say if a page cost 10¢ and you sell it for 50¢?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: You can be assured that the price would not yield a profit; it would be under the cost of production. It is an expensive process. It is labour intensive. Court reporters in the courts and tribunals usually take down material by shorthand, although before the conciliation commission, which is located at Xerox House, it is tape-recorded, which is probably more efficient in terms of cost, but takes longer to get out the transcript because they have to be produced by audio typists from the tape. On the other hand shorthand reporters in the courts produce the transcript very quickly. When they have finished their shift they go back and it is typed up that very day. It is normally available first thing the next day. So there are cost benefits in the two competing positions.

I can now give the general reporting service branch fees within the Attorney General's Department for transcript, bearing in mind that this is applicable to proceedings before the deputy presidents and judges of the Industrial Relations Commission, 50 Phillip Street; it would not be the same cost per page in relation to the Xerox House position that I have told you about - the tape-recorded option. I am informed that the cost per page for transcripts in New South Wales is $7.80. That is the cost that the client or the customer is charged. It is cheaper than the cost in Victoria, which is $10.20 a page, and cheaper than the Commonwealth system, Auscript, which is $9.59 a page. My information is that the actual cost or production of that page is significantly greater than the fee charged.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: I ask a supplementary question. One of my concerns is enterprise agreements. Some confusion may have arisen as to what decisions have been made and how they affect individual workers; workers may want copies of the document. Will you take that into consideration?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: That can be taken into consideration in the general review of costs and charges within the Attorney General's Department. I appreciate the point you make. Many years ago people who wanted judgments of the then Industrial Commission paid an amount to the judge's associate. There are a number of examples of groups of workers having to put in to pay for their judgments, particularly as some of them were very lengthy. Again, the cost was on a per-page basis. Thankfully, that system has gone and judgments are now provided readily.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 217, the line item relating to employee-related expenses of $8 million. You have hinted at this in your comments already, but in view of the new industrial relations legislation that you are seeking community response to, would you have to have an amended budget item for your department, have you tried to anticipate any extra costs, or would they all be absorbed in the normal running of the department? Are there any extra costs anticipated through the new industrial relations legislation?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: Although one cannot be absolutely certain about this, our expectation is that the costs of implementation of any new legislation can be dealt with within this budgetary allocation. As with any new scheme you would expect a cost impact immediately to deal with teething problems and the need for information to the public and the industrial relations stakeholders. But we believe that will even out with time. We anticipate that the operating expenses can be dealt with within existing budgetary allocations. Our budgetary allocation is somewhat under the amount spent by the former Government.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: That is what I was noticing.

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: We believe those efficiency savings can be met. To be frank, the savings are partly made from savings in corporate services because they are now covered by that other department in Mr Aquilina's portfolio under contract.

The Hon. J. R. JOHNSON: I note that in Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 217, program 24.1, line item, policy advice, the average staffing indicates an increase in staff numbers. Can you advise the Committee of how the public will benefit from the increase in policy advice staffing?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: The policy group and the women's equity bureau are the principal instruments for developing strategies and implementation plans and ensuring that key stakeholders understand and implement the workplace reforms and other initiatives intended in the new Industrial Relations Act. An adequate level of staffing is required in these areas, and I do not intend to have them under-resourced or left without adequate support, as we take the view they were left by the previous Government. It is the priority of this Government to develop and implement new industrial relations for the State. It is clearly of benefit to the public to ensure that appropriate levels of policy staff assist in this process.

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The coalition version, the now Opposition version, of transforming the workplaces of New South Wales simply led to the negotiation of enterprise agreements, with little regard for productivity improvements or workplace cultural change, and did little for increasing our international competitiveness. This Government wants to assist workplaces to consider innovative measures to bring about long-lasting workplace reform that will lead to increased internal and international competitiveness, improved employment levels and improved profitability while not sacrificing fairness at work, and management participation and cooperation in the workplace. I want to develop a small but highly skilled section within the department to provide sophisticated advice to industry and unions on productivity bargaining and workplace reform generally. I want to foster effective innovation in industrial relations to promote and assist enterprise bargaining, as well as more flexible arrangements within the award system.

Industrial relations policy services staff are also available for other key functions such as research and analysis of current and developing issues in industrial relations; provision of policy advice to the Minister and senior departmental officers; representation of the views of the Government before industrial tribunals, interdepartmental bodies and other relevant bodies; and submissions to inquiries into industrial relations legislation; and associated matters. The women's equity bureau will play an expanded role to facilitate the Government's goal of improving women's employment equity. The bureau will provide policy advice on women's industrial relations and employment issues within the new legislative framework, provide a key educative and consultative role in informing and encouraging equitable pay and working conditions, and provide representation on equity issues to State and Federal tribunals and other forums.

The Hon. B. H. VAUGHAN: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 217, subprogram 24.1.1, Private Sector Industrial Relations, and to the line item relating to operating expenses. I assume that subprogram provides details of initiatives that the Minster and his department have implemented to provide employers and employees with ready access to current industrial relations and awards. What are those initiatives that are referred to?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: While a number of measures were introduced to the Award Inquiry Service Centre aimed at improving delivery of customer service, including lowering telephone queue waiting times, this Government realises that those measures were not enough. The Department of Industrial Relations is actively pursuing a number of options to improve the quality and scope of the service to meet the needs of the customers. These options include expanding hours of operation, upgrading telephone facilities to include interactive voice messaging, surveying customers needs and undertaking a benchmarking study with other similar providers in the public and private sectors for best practice models. Last fiscal year the Award Inquiries Service Centre received 310,668 telephone inquiries, 56,300 used the 0055 recorded service, and 8,372 people wrote to the department seeking information.

In addition, the award subscription service provides subscribers with a hard copy of the award and any variations to the award made by the Industrial Relations Commission. This allows subscribers to remain up to date on relevant award conditions as variations are made. Although the award subscription service has been successful, with approximately 2,400 individual subscribers subscribing to 3,218 subscriptions, the Department of Industrial Relations will promote the service more actively in 1995-96 as it is a valuable means of providing employers with current information, and this in turn should encourage compliance. Award information and publications are available from most local offices. The Department of Industrial Relations has implemented a computerised database of State awards which is accessed in all offices. This is of substantial benefit to customers in country areas.

It is obvious that the awards constitute a legally enforceable specification of wages and conditions. It is obvious that citizens, that is, employers and employees, are entitled to have access to copies of that document, just as they are entitled to have access to copies of regulations or statutes made by the Parliament or by the Executive Government. Unless the documents are readily available it is hard to expect people to comply with them. Accordingly, the provision of that information and those documents is an important part of the dispensation of industrial justice, and we ought to do everything we can to make sure those awards are made available in an efficient and timely way. Unless the awards are available we will see private subscription services springing up, and entrepreneurs and individual employer bodies putting out their own loose-leaf copies of awards. In a sense, that is fair enough, but I think that the Government needs to be able to provide these awards to the citizens in an appropriate manner. If that is so, use of private methods of providing awards should be minimised.

The Hon. Dr MEREDITH BURGMANN: I refer to page 217 of Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, subprogram 24.1.1. Under the subprogram Private Sector Industrial Relations, a reduction is shown in average effective full-time staffing from 188 in 1994-95 to only 180 in 1995-96. How does the Minister explain that reduction in staffing?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: In essence, there are no operational staffing reductions included in the 1995-96 budget for industrial relations. The reductions contained within the budget papers do not fully explain what has occurred as a result of the
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separation of the Department of Industrial Relations and the Department of Training and Education Co-ordination. These figures relate first to the outsourcing of corporate service functions to DTEC following the disbandment of the former Department of Industrial Relations, Employment Training and Further Education. Under this arrangement the Department of Industrial Relations has divested itself of corporate services staff and relies on this service to be provided by DTEC on a fee-for-service basis. As a result of this arrangement the budgeted effective full-time staffing number is shown as a reduction on the previous year. In addition, during 1994-95 temporary employees were engaged by the former Government to address substantial areas in the investigation of complaints. As the EFT number is an average figure, those temporary staff also had an inflationary effect on the staff levels recorded for 1994-95.

The Hon. J. R. JOHNSON: I turn to page 218, Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, subprogram Private Sector Industrial Relations. Budgeted total current payments are $11.229 million, yet actual payments are recorded as $12.218 million. Will the Minister explain that budget overrun of about 8.3 per cent?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: There has been no overrun of expenditure within the Department of Industrial Relations in the 1994-95 financial year. If there had been we would be quite unembarrassed about saying so, because after all the present Opposition had control of expenditure for almost three-quarters of the financial year. But in our usual fair-minded, reasonable way, we do not assert that there has been a budget overrun. As the Hon. J. R. Johnson has pointed out, the budget papers indicate that expenditure exceeds the amount allocated in the budget. The answer, I am pleased to say, is simple, at least for those of us fully familiar with modern accounting techniques. The additional expenditure was met from a combination of savings and increased revenue within the department and through proper supplementation from the Treasury.

These additional funds were necessary to meet the cost of essential programs which included the following examples of overexpenditure in high priority areas: first, $179,000 reallocation of savings to increase the capacity for processing enterprise agreements; $354,000 reallocation of savings into the industrial relations operations area to provide for a number of projects, including additional funds for the backlog reduction task force; additional resources for awards inquiries, training for inspectors, and the clothing industry task force; $216,000 additional resources for the policy areas to provide advice on the Coal Industry Tribunal dissolution and the relationship of Federal and State unfair dismissal legislation; and $52,000 miscellaneous centrally managed items. There is also a grant of $231,000 by Treasury for the work and family strategy, which also contributed to additional expenditure against the budget.

The Hon. B. H. VAUGHAN: I refer to the Consolidated Fund Capital Appropriation appearing on page 216, Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1. The estimate was $1.141 million, and actual expenditure was $417,000. Why was that significant allocation underspent?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: The reasons relate to the changes that occurred as a result of the disaggregation of the former Department of Industrial Relations, Employment, Training and Further Education.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: You mean the break-up?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: Yes, break-up would be putting it more simply, but these days we have to use the language of disaggregation, so I am told. In essence, the estimate of $1.141 million included an amount of $0.695 million, which was the share of the Department of Industrial Relations of corporate services capital works of the former DIRETFE. As corporate services are now undertaken on behalf of the Department of Industrial Relations by the Department of Training and Education Co-ordination, expenditure in relation to the allocation is recorded against the capital works of that department. Having allowed for corporate services capital work being charged against DTEC, expenditure in relation to the Department of Industrial Relations was underspent by an amount of $29,000.

The Hon. Dr MEREDITH BURGMANN: On page 217, Budget Paper No. 3, subprogram 24.1.1, an estimate of $104,000 is shown for minor user charges in 1994-95, compared to actual revenue received that year of $243,000. Will the Minister advise why there is such a significant variation between actual expenditure and budgeted expenditure?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: Minor user charges within the private sector industrial relations budget include income from the sale of historical award information, the 0055 telephone service, income from library activities and a number of other miscellaneous items. I have already mentioned the DIR library, a fine institution. I repeat that it is able to attract revenue by some user-pays activity providing information to industry and other interested inquirers. It is one of the items we are particularly proud of. There was some suggestion initially that it would go to DTEC. That was successfully resisted as part of the negotiations concerning the break up of those two departments. During the 1994-95 year the department did raise additional revenue of $15,000 through the introduction of some fees in the enterprise agreements advisory unit. In addition, a better than anticipated performance was achieved across all groups responsible for user charges. However, the principle reason for the increase in user charge revenue was due to the disaggregation of the Department of Industrial Relations, Employment, Training and Further Education.

Page 2593

As part of the accounting arrangements associated with this process, an amount of $70,000 of corporate services revenue was apportioned to user charges within private sector industrial relations. The Government seems to have been successful in my two areas. In terms of the Attorney General's portfolio we made cost savings by amalgamation or reamalgamation of the department. In terms of the break-up in the industrial relations area, we also made efficiency gains in allocation of sources to DTEC from industrial relations. We would argue that both of those rearrangements within the Government have been successful financially and in efficiency terms. I am confident that there may be some debate about the separation of DTEC, but most informed observers within the present Opposition would agree with the reamalgamation of the Attorney General's Department and the Department of Courts Administration. As can be seen from the budget papers it is anticipated that revenue for the 1995-96 year will fall to an amount of $152,000. This estimate takes into account the fact that the apportionment from the former Department of Industrial Relations, Employment, Training and Further Education only occurred during 1994-95 as a direct result of the disaggregation of that department.

The Hon. Dr MEREDITH BURGMANN: Do academic researchers using the Department of Industrial Relations library have to pay?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: I am hesitant to give a definitive answer on that. My sympathy would be with the academic researcher who wants access, but I think I ought to take that question on notice and give a proper answer as to the criteria that are applied to whether the service is charged for. I take it the honourable member has not sought to use the library herself.

The Hon. J. R. JOHNSON: I refer to subprogram 24.1.1, Private Sector Industrial Relations, on page 217 of Budget Paper No. 3. The line item relating to user charges revenue,

publication sales, shows an estimate in 1994-95 of $171,000, compared to actual revenue of $337,000. Will the Minister advise the reason for such a significant variation between the estimate and the actual revenue?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: Revenue in this line item is generated by the sale of awards, publications and industrial arbitration reports. During the year the department implemented the award subscription service. This service provides customers of the department with hard copies of awards and variations to awards as they are determined by the Industrial Relations Commission. Response to this subscription service has been very good. In fact, it has exceeded the estimates placed upon it in the 1994-95 budget. The budget figures for 1995-96 estimate a slight decrease to $310,000, compared to the actual expenditure of $337,000 that was achieved in 1994-95. This decline is anticipated as there is expected to be a reduction in the demand for individual awards and publications because of the success of the award subscription service.

One of my particular projects - and I am sure the director-general will be listening to this - is to get the industrial arbitration reports up to date. For the last 15 years they have been disgracefully behind schedule. That has been so under governments of all political colours. Because the industrial relations field moves so swiftly, and because there is a pressing need for the industrial arbitration reports to be up to date, those reports are well nigh useless for any contemporary study of what is going on in the commission. Consequently, one has seen the proliferation of private services: the Law Book Company's Industrial Reports, the publication by CCH Australia of the Australian Industrial Law Review and other such informal services, whereas what we need is an official and decent set of law reports to deal with industrial relations. I hope to get them out in an up-to-date way in the near future.

The Committee proceeded to deliberate on the recommendation of the vote.


Page 2594






The Hon. Dorothy Isaksen The Hon. J. F. Ryan
The Hon. Elisabeth Kirkby The Hon. Helen Sham-Ho
The Hon. A. B. Manson The Hon. Ann Symonds
Reverend the Hon. F. J. Nile



The Hon. R. D. Dyer, Minister for Community Services, Minister for Aged Services, and Minister for Disability Services

Department of Community Services
Mr D. Semple, Director-General
Mr R. Gilmour, Director, Corporate Services

Home Care Service
Ms M. Hammerton, General Manager

Community Services Commission
Mr R. West, Commissioner

Ageing and Disability Department
Ms J. Woodruff, Director-General
Mr G. Loder, Acting Finance Manager

Guardianship Board
Ms Marion Brown, Deputy President

Department of Juvenile Justice
Mr K. Buttrum, Acting Director-General
Mr R. Salzmann, Deputy Director-General
Page 2595

CHAIR: I declare open the Estimates Committee for Community Services, Aged Services, and Disability Services. At this meeting the Committee will examine the proposed expenditure from the Consolidated Fund in the portfolio area of Community Services, Aged Services and Disability Services.

Motion by the Hon. Elisabeth Kirkby agreed to:

That, in accordance with the Resolution of the Legislative Council of 11 October 1994, the Committee authorises the sound and television broadcasting, as appropriate, of its public proceedings, unless otherwise ordered.

CHAIR: I have received advice of alternative members to serve on this Committee: Reverend the Hon. F. J. Nile representing the Hon. Elaine Nile, and the Hon. J. F. Ryan representing the Hon. R. B. Rowland Smith.

The Hon. R. D. DYER: Before the proceedings commence, I indicate that the Hon. J. F. Ryan has submitted a number of questions on notice, some of which can be partly responded to now. I am in the hands of the Committee as to whether that should happen now or at a later stage, but they can partly be answered here and now.

The Hon. J. F. RYAN: I am happy to deal with those matters later but some of them may arise in answers to other questions. They were meant to be items of detail which related more to the interpretation of the budget papers than anything else. I understand that the Minister is happy to take many of the questions on notice, so I am happy to deal with them later. They were not matters of high priority.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, page 225, line item financial assistance for welfare. I notice that there is a big reduction in the 1994-95 figure for financial assistance for welfare. Why is there such a big reduction? Does the Minister think that the amount allocated is adequate? Who are the clients for these welfare services? What services are included under this heading?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: I am advised that the estimated expenditure for 1994-95 was $495,000 plus an increased demand amounting to $170,000, leading to actual expenditure of $665,000 in 1995-96. However, there is then a minus adjustment of $170,000 to restore the 1994-95 estimate base, leading to an estimate in the current financial year of $495,000. The overall base in child protection has gone up substantially this financial year. In 1994-95 the total expenditure was $50.956 million and the estimated expenditure in 1995-96 is $54.330 million.

The Hon. J. F. RYAN: I am not sure whether that answers the question of what that program does for welfare. Given that there was a blow-out in the figure last year, why will it not at least do the same this year?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: I indicated in my answer that the estimated expenditure last financial year and this financial year is on track; it is the same as it was last year. An adjustment was made to reflect increased expenditure last year. I ask Mr Semple, the Director-General of Community Services, to further respond.

Mr SEMPLE: The only comment I would add is that that was an increase within that particular vote. Some of that expenditure related to additional costs for child protection, which has been built back into the increased base, so that is an adjustment that had been put into the overall child protection base. If members want more details as to how that was built in, we are happy to provide them.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: I would like to know that, and I would like to know what services come under that budget allocation.

The Hon. R. D. DYER: We can provide a more detailed response.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: Are you taking it on notice?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: We are taking it on notice, yes.

The Hon. J. F. RYAN: You will recall the commitment that the Government made to increase the number of child protection officers to 60. I notice that on page 225 of Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, the EFT shows an increase of only 38 in 1995-96. How can you provide 60 extra officers, given that the staff number shows an increase of only 38?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: Clearly, this is a rolling recruitment program, and not all the additional 60 have yet been recruited. The first 30 of the additional specialist child protection officers are currently being recruited. My understanding is that the remaining 30 will be recruited prior to 31 December this year. In August this year the Premier agreed to a time frame for the appointment of the 60 child protection specialists to which we are referring, 30 positions by 30 September this year and the remaining 30 by 31 December. As at 25 October this year 19 of the first 30 positions had either been offered or approved. It is expected that the second 30 positions will be advertised very soon.

The Hon. J. F. RYAN: Do I understand that the 60 extra officers represent a net increase for the department's number of officers working in this field of 60; it is not the group of people who are currently district officers who have had their title changed?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: No. The child protection casework specialists, which is the name that they are being given, clearly are not taken from the existing district officer positions; nor could they justly be described as district officer positions.
Page 2596
They are newly created positions with clearly defined and different duties. The 60 positions are over and above the existing staff, both establishment and actual, in the department.

The Hon. J. F. RYAN: Can you explain the difference? Will the specialists be involved in case management, not field assessment of abuse notifications?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: The intention is that the specialist officers will be, as the name implies, officers with a specialist knowledge of child protection issues. The purpose will not be primarily to deal in direct casework but to back up and resource direct child protection officers. That is, they will be experts who will be able to be consulted regarding day-to-day casework matters. The officers, for example, will be able to advise the direct services officers if they have a doubt as to how their discretion might be exercised in regard to a given child protection matter, such as whether there should be intervention at a particular level or not.

The Hon. J. F. RYAN: So the day-to-day management of receiving child abuse notifications and investigating them will still be the responsibility of district officers, and they will liaise with these other people as consultants?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: Yes, the day-to-day responsibility for casework will remain with the district officers. However, the district officers will have the resource as they did in 1989, prior to the 77 positions being abolished by the previous Government, of referring to the specialist officers to assist them in their casework.

The Hon. J. F. RYAN: It was my understanding that the previous officers under the last Government took over cases and carried on in a specialist way; they had a different role than the one that you have proposed for the specialists.

The Hon. R. D. DYER: I am advised that under the previous Government the practice in that regard varied from office to office. However, in regard to the officers currently being engaged, I point out that when court work in particular is involved they will have a direct role to play.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: I refer to the Child Protection subprogram 25.1.1 at page 225 and particularly to the line item expenses in the operating statement. I commend the Minister for the increased allocation, but I do not know if the Minister expects more child sexual assaults. What programs are available and are there any new initiatives in the education of prevention of sexual assault? Why is there such a huge increase in the allocation of expenses for the child sexual assault program from $518,000 to nearly $1 million?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: The first thing I point out is that this Government has increased expenditure to the Child Protection Council under the child sexual assault program. There is a supplementary payment to the extent of $100,000 annually for the Child Protection Council. However, the estimated expenditure for 1995-96 for the child sexual assault program is $985,000, compared with actual expenditure in 1994-95 of $518,000. Expenditure under the program was not fully committed in 1994-95; $518,000 was spent out of a total allocation of $890,000. The Child Protection Council has been accumulating funds to develop a one-off grants program and $265,000 has been rolled over into the 1995-96 allocations for this item.

The grants are to be provided under the council's child abuse prevention resources grants program. These are for projects designed to develop prevention resources which target the emotional abuse of children arising from domestic violence, physical abuse and/or neglect. Applications were sought during the last financial year by public advertisement and 67 applications were received. At this stage I have approved eight grants to community organisations under this program totalling $235,000.

The Hon. J. F. RYAN: Program 25.1, Care and Protection, commences at page 225 of Budget Paper No. 3. At page 230 the investing statement for this particular program allows for outflows from proposed receipts of asset sales of about $21.254 million. Could the Minister give some indication of the items to be sold and whether the agency will retain 100 per cent of the sale proceeds?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: The first point is that the full value of the sales of assets is retained and not lost, either partially or wholly. The agency retains the full value. I am advised that the total figure is an estimate at this stage. However, subject to completion of sales, approximately $5 million will be realised from the disposal of various properties, depending on the outcome of the sales - that is always tinged with some uncertainty. Some of the principal properties involved are Lark Hill and Rath at Campbelltown, estimated to produce $2.6 million; Collier Street, Redhead, near Newcastle, $185,000; Rowe Cottage at Mittagong, a transaction that has been settled and has produced $487,000; Warne Street, Wellington, $230,000; a portion of Renwick at Mittagong, a transaction which has also been settled and has produced $700,000; Jones Street, Moree, also a settled transaction which has produced $34,000; Oriana Street, Coffs Harbour, not a completed transaction but estimated to produce $240,000; and the final major item is Ironbank Road Muswellbrook, estimated to secure $215,000. The larger properties have not been included because it is not anticipated they will result in a sale in this current financial year.

The Hon. J. F. RYAN: You are talking about $5 million worth of asset sales. Why do the budget papers show $21 million?

Page 2597

The Hon. R. D. DYER: I am advised that the $21 million is the long-term anticipated outcome and not the outcome in the current financial year.

The Hon. J. F. RYAN: Why is it shown in the current financial year?

Mr GILMOUR: Perhaps I could comment. These are obviously estimates for the department overall to finance its program. Included in the assets sales for substitute care are very large properties such as Renwick, and others down the track. To enable us to fund the transition part of the program, we need to provide estimates for that in this financial year to cover the expenditure that will come this financial year. Given accrual accounting, we are able to take that forward or backwards between the years to finance the transition program.

The Hon. J. F. RYAN: What happens if this year you are $15 million down?

Mr GILMOUR: That will not happen, but we have cash flow financial strategies that handle those arrangements, which we will discuss with Treasury.

The Hon. J. F. RYAN: The line item that refers to child support allowances and associated expenses for foster care is shown at page 228. I understand foster care is likely to be a large growth area under the implementation of the Usher report. Last year the expenditure for that line item was $20.144 million and this year it is estimated at $18.2 million. Would that suggest that the program is going to run into some difficulty?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: The initial point to be made regarding foster care is that changes are under way to outsource foster care to non-government agencies. Hitherto, the Department of Community Services has had the bulk of foster care services through its own resources, rather than through agencies such as Barnardos Australia, Centacare and so on. At the moment there is a transitional phase under way and the result is that some departmental facilities have been closed and there is outsourcing to non-government agencies.

The Hon. J. F. RYAN: Is the difference made up through the line item referring to community-based residential care?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: Yes, that is correct. I am advised that some 16 group homes are in the course of being opened to provide for foster care programs. Of course, I am referring there to the non-government sector as distinct from facilities operated by the Department of Community Services.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: I refer you to subprogram Child Care at page 231, particularly the operating statement and the reference to the line item child care assistance for working women. For the last year the expenditure was $838,000 and this year the estimate is nil. What will happen to the children of working women?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: The simple response to the question is that funds allocated during the past financial year have been expended.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: So there is no estimation; the funds have been expended already? What happens during the next 10 months?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: My recollection and advice is that this is a Federal-State initiative or program. It was mounted on a trial basis and the funds in fact were expended during the past financial year 1994-95.

Mr GILMOUR: It is not an ongoing program.

The Hon. J. F. RYAN: I refer to program 25.3, Community Support Services, at page 236. I presume that the line item referring to grants and subsidies for community youth projects and community development is the community services grants program. The combined total of both of those amounts increases by about $1 million. Can the Minister tell the Committee how that fulfils his election commitment to increase the size of the community services grants program by $10 million over the next four years?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: I must say very frankly that in opposition and in government I have found it a matter of considerable difficulty to isolate the references within the budget papers to the community services grants program. I am in no different a position now in government than I was in opposition. I give you an assurance that the Treasurer and Treasury budgeted to give effect to the Government's pre-election promise to enhance funding for the community services grants program to the extent of $2.5 million per year for existing services under that program. I can give a detailed justification of what the Government is spending under the community services grants program. I have a document showing estimated expenditure under family and individual support of $17.020 million in 1994-95.

[Time expired.]

The Hon. R. D. DYER: I seek leave to incorporate the document in Hansard.

Leave granted.
______

FAMILY AND INDIVIDUAL SUPPORT

ESTIMATE 1994/95 $17.020

Plus:

•Area Assistance Scheme Pickups $0.039
•Drought expenses $7.642

Minus:

•Variation in respect of Intensive

Family Bases Services $0.784

•Casino Intensive Family Based Pilot

(funds transfer) $0.209

•Other Variations $0.032

Page 2598

ACTUAL 1994/95 $23.676

Plus:

•1994/95 Indexation adjustment $0.074
•Indexation $0.218
•Full year effect of Area Assistance

Scheme Pickups $0.173

•Additional Drought Funding $5.000
•Rollover of unspent 1994/95

drought funds $0.358

•CSGP Supplementation $2.500
•Rollover of unspent Intensive

Family Based Services $0.784

•International year of Family grant

from Social Policy Directorate $0.128

Minus:

•1994/95 Drought expenses $7.642
•Re-classification of projects $1.509
•1994/95 one-off expenses $0.178

ESTIMATE 1995/96 $23.582

ENERGY ACCOUNTS PAYMENT ASSISTANCE

ESTIMATE 1994/95 $NIL

ACTUAL 1994/95 $NIL

Plus:

•Program transferring from

Department of Energy $3.440

ESTIMATE 1995/96 $3.440

______

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: I notice from Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 236, subprogram 25.3.1, line item appeals tribunal and visitors scheme, that in 1994-95 there was a budget of $114,000. It appears as if the program has been phased out because there is no actual expenditure or budget estimate for 1995-96, or has that been transferred to some other part of the budget?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: I am advised that this is the old Community Welfare Appeals Tribunal, now a repealed body no longer existing, and the functions previously performed by it are performed by the new Community Services Appeals Commission.

Mr WEST: The Community Services Appeals Tribunal and the visitors scheme, two separate -

The Hon. R. D. DYER: If I could supplement that answer? The overall body is the Community Services Commission. However, the actual bodies handling similar functions under the new structure are the community visitors scheme and the Community Services Appeals Tribunal.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: So there is no decrease in the budget?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: No, there is certainly no decrease; in fact, there is an increase in expenditure. The expenditure for the community visitors scheme is $394,000 for the current financial year, and for the tribunal it is $441,000. This represents a substantially greater figure than the amount you referred to for the past financial year.

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 234, subprogram 25.2.1, Crisis Support and Accommodation. The program objective is, "To assist people who are in crisis and who are genuinely homeless move towards independent living . . ." Under the line item operating statement it refers to grants and subsidies for refuges for men, women, youth, children and intoxicated persons and also to the Society of St Vincent de Paul homeless persons project. As you are no doubt aware the Society of St Vincent de Paul has issued a briefing paper suggesting that the number of homeless people, particularly homeless women, is increasing. Why has the allocation for crisis accommodation and support been cut by 1 per cent in real terms, given that the unmet demand in refuges is growing, particularly the demand from homeless single women?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: I can assure the Hon. Elisabeth Kirkby that there has been no reduction in budgeted funds for the purpose mentioned. In 1995-96 the total budget allocation for the supported accommodation assistance program will be $83.7 million. That budget funding is to be made available to over 470 community-based services throughout the State to provide a variety of services for homeless people in crisis, which includes youth refuges, women's refuges, medium- to long-term support accommodation and proclaimed places. I recently visited a Vincentian facility for homeless women in east Sydney. I noted from memory that an additional 12 beds had been funded, and other beds had been funded recently for the Salvation Army for the same purpose for homeless women. I am advised that the reason for the apparent reduction to which the honourable member refers in Budget Paper No. 3, page 234, is that there was a rephasing payment for one-quarter only. I assume it is an accounting quirk but there is certainly no overall reduction in expenditure.

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: Be that as it may. If you refer to expenses under the line item, operating statement, you will see that the money allocated to the St Vincent de Paul homeless persons project has, in fact, fallen. For the other grants and subsidies I do not think the increase will keep pace with inflation.

The Hon. R. D. DYER: I will ask Mr Semple to further respond to that question.

Mr SEMPLE: Passing from what the Minister has outlined in relation to the one-quarter rephasing, with St Vincent de Paul there was a retrospective one-off award of funding of $88,000 which is not a recurrent commitment thereafter. It is that one adjustment that shows the difference in relation to why the estimate is below what the expenditure was last year.

Page 2599

The Hon. J. F. RYAN: What was that program?

Mr SEMPLE: It was the homeless persons project.

The Hon. J. F. RYAN: The $88,000?

CHAIR: You are out of order.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: In Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 252, subprogram 27.1.1, Community Services Commission, I note the commission's staff has increased from 21 to 32. What are the functions of the extra staff of the commission?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: I will ask Mr West, Commissioner of the Community Services Commission, to respond in detail to that question. However, I point out that this body was set up by legislation enacted in about April 1993 under the previous Government so that there clearly was a period during which the new body had to tool up, as it were, to engage staff and to become active in promoting its programs and carrying out its functions. Clearly it started from a base of nil and gradually worked up. I will ask Mr West to indicate in an outline at least what are the staff duties.

Mr WEST: The Minister's answer is the explanation for these figures, that is, staffing reached that level of 35 by the end of 1994-95. At the beginning of that year it started from a base of four. Over the year it averaged 24 staff members. It was a brand new organisation and it reached that level at the end of the last financial year. It remains at that level for the current year. The functions performed by those people vary significantly because of the number of different activities performed by the commission, for example, the tribunal registry. Some tribunal members are part-time fee-for-service people but registry staff and an investigative officer make up the numbers.

Other staff include complaints investigators. A unit in our office monitors the status of State wards and other people in full-time State care. One unit has funded non-government community service providers to encourage, assist and train them to set up their own complaints handling mechanisms so that disputes can be resolved at the local level. Those people also work directly with consumers and their advocates to try to facilitate a more constructive local resolution of complaints.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: Will that figure remain at 35?

Mr WEST: It will for the current year. We are hoping to be able to take up in the future some programs which are built in to the budget, in particular, the coordination of community visitors, that is, part-time people who will not be on the payroll, such as ministerial appointees who will be visiting accommodation provided for children and adults with disabilities. Within our own organisation we will need a coordinator and a support person to make sure that program, with 660 different services, is well coordinated and to ensure that those people are well supported.

The Hon. R. D. DYER: When I referred to the Community Services Commission being set up under the previous Government I did not wish to imply in any way that it does not have the support of the present Government. There always has been bipartisan support for the Community Services Commission.

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: In budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 236, program 25.3, Community Support Services, subprogram 25.3.1, Support for Families, I believe that community services received an additional $2.5 million each year over four years which, of course, is in line with the pre-election promise made by your Government. Most of these are in the grant section of the support for families program. Will this amount be indexed for inflation as inflation is now rising? Will this extra funding cease after four years? How will this extra money be distributed? Although there is obviously a great need for counselling support and referral of families and adolescents in difficulty, your staffing has remained constant. Apparently, there is to be no increase in staff.

The Hon. R. D. DYER: The promise made by the Government prior to the election earlier this year was that there would be supplementation of the community services grants program to the extent of $2.5 million each year for the next four years. Provision was made for the first instalment in the current budget. That supplementation is to go to existing services under the community services grants program as distinct from new services. I am advised that indexation provisions are likely to apply in future budgets, subject to budget deliberation at the given time.

I also point out that part of my promise prior to the election was that I would set up a community services grants program advisory committee, which I set up recently, and that I would seek and to a large extent rely on its advice as to the apportionment of the funds between the two CSGP subprograms. From memory, I intend to meet the CSGP advisory committee on 1 November. I would be interested to receive advice relating to the apportionment of the funds between the CSGP subprograms.

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: To return to my original question regarding $2.5 million over four years, is it the intention of Government to index this for inflation?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: Yes. I responded to that in the answer I have just given. I said that I am advised that indexation is likely to apply in future budgets.

Page 2600

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: It is likely to apply? You cannot guarantee that it will apply?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: No government can ever guarantee what will be included in a future budget. I am saying that it is likely to apply. I also said earlier - and I repeat it now - that consideration will be given to that in connection with each budget. But it is never possible to say in advance of the event what a budget will provide.

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: Do you still believe it will be possible for you to disburse that extra money and assist those families in need without increasing your staff?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: In my view, an increase in staff is the last thing that would be needed to disburse those funds. Community organisations have been pressing political parties for many years now for increased funds, on the basis that they say they are - to use a phrase - going out backwards, given that demands on their services and social problems have increased. The staff of non-government agencies could increase to deliver those additional services. However, that is essentially a matter for the services themselves.

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: If the need is greater, as you have just admitted, and one of the activities is to counsel more people, you will require more counsellors.

The Hon. R. D. DYER: The community services grants program funds 1,030 non-government programs statewide. It is not a matter for the Government to decide who should be engaged to deliver those services; it is a matter for the non-government agencies. However, it is reasonable to assume in some cases that, if there is additional activity in any one or more of those 1,030 services, some additional staff might be engaged to carry out their functions, whether it is counselling or some other activity.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: I refer to page 227 of Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1. In spite of what you said earlier about asset sales, the department has budgeted for the acquisition of property, plant and equipment to the value of $2.4 million in 1995-96. That is a $1 million increase over actual expenditure in 1994-95. Is that for group homes? What is the purpose of that extra expenditure?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: I am advised that the sum to which Reverend the Hon. F. J. Nile referred substantially deals with information technology equipment, that is, computer equipment and other office expenses.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: Based at all departments or at head office?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: Essentially, office expenses for district offices of the Department of Community Services.

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: I refer to page 225 of Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1. In your department's substitute care program $17 million was allocated in 1994-95 for payments to foster parents. But the increasing number of children who needed care meant that over $20 million needed to be spent. It has been estimated that the number of children in foster care is predicted to increase by 10 per cent. But this year the allocation -

CHAIR: I do not know to which line item the Hon. Elisabeth Kirkby is referring.

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: I am referring to subprogram 25.1.1, Child Protection.

The Hon. R. D. DYER: I can see no mention on that page of the matter to which the honourable member referred.

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: The program objective states, "To assist in the protection of children from abuse and neglect." Those children are frequently taken into foster care.

The Hon. R. D. DYER: The Hon. Elisabeth Kirkby referred to page 225. Child protection is referred to on page 228.

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: Last year there was a necessity for the budget to be expanded for children in foster care. Even though it is admitted that the number of people requiring foster care is predicted to increase by 10 per cent, this year's allocation has been cut by 13.4 per cent in real terms. Do you believe that an allocation of $18 million would be sufficient and provide adequate resources for foster parents? The line item to which I am referring on page 228 is child support allowances and associated expenses for foster care.

The Hon. R. D. DYER: I am advised that the figure to which the Hon. Elisabeth Kirkby is referring in fact deals with departmental foster care as distinct from non-government foster care. The honourable member would be aware that there is under way at the moment, via the Usher report on substitute care services for children, a change from essentially government provided services to non-government provided services. The figure in the budget papers refers to government provided services as distinct from non-government provided services, the latter of which is growing at this moment. Let me further clarify that response. If the honourable member goes up a few lines to the line item dealing with grants and subsidies and community-based residential care, she will see that in 1994-95 actual expenditure was $22.694 million and, in 1995-96, estimated expenditure amounts to $38.768 million, which is obviously a substantial increase. A distinction must be drawn between government provided services and non-government provided services. The latter is growing rapidly and the former is decreasing somewhat.

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: Let me get this clear. Under the line item of other services on page 228 is a reference to child support and
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associated expenses for departmental residential care, which has been cut from $388,000 to $133,000. Is that the government component? In the line item other services is a reference to child support allowances and associated expenses for foster care. Is that for non-departmental expenditure?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: It is my understanding that the figure referred to in the second last line on page 228, namely, $133,000, being estimated expenditure for 1995-96, refers to departmental residential care. That figure is dropping for the reason I mentioned earlier. But departmental care is not being used as often, in contradistinction to non-departmental care, which is going up.

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: That was the crux of my argument. I am referring to child support allowances and associated expenses for foster care in the non-government section. That has also been cut.

The Hon. R. D. DYER: No. Grants and subsidiaries for community-based residential care are increasing from actual expenditure in 1995-96 of $22.629 million to $38.768 million, which is anything but a cut; it is a substantial increase. I also indicate that the bottom line states that actual expenditure in this whole program area was $91.16 million and it is estimated to be $99.835 million in 1995-96. That bottom line clearly takes into account both the non-government care of children and the government care.

The Hon. DOROTHY ISAKSEN: My question relates to the reference on page 225 of Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, to average staffing of the Child Protection subprogram. I note that the budget allocation will increase from $684,000 to $722,000 and that total expenses will increase by over $5 million. Will the Minister outline the reasons behind those staffing and funding increases?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: First, the department's actions will always be open to criticism in the child protection area because of the very nature of the work it undertakes. However, it has become clear that the increasing demand for child protection services has led to the department narrowing its direct service role to the investigation of allegations of abuse. Available resources have been consumed in responding to this immediate need, leaving few resources to address the equally important work of supporting families to prevent child abuse. The department has recognised the need to reaffirm its statutory role in crisis intervention and to ensure that prevention services are available to children and families. Families have always required help to function well and to provide a safe and nurturing environment for children. In the past this was often provided by the extended family and by the local community. However, economic and social changes in recent decades have led to more mobile populations and more diverse needs for family support.

Outcomes for children are often influenced by their parent's experience of family life and parenting, their personal qualities and their special needs. For Aboriginal families past welfare policies have precipitated significant changes in family structures which continue to influence present generations. There are two essential components to a system which provides adequate supports to families. They are accessible community information and support services as a basic part of community infrastructure, and a responsive and integrated child protection service which provides relevant support and appropriate intervention to ensure the wellbeing of children and families. The provision of that type of support is a core role of the department. However, many other agencies, both government and non-government, share this role. The department will work with these agencies to provide an integrated system of support services to children, families and communities.

Additionally, in order to develop this shared vision of responsibility in the child protection program, the Child Protection Council has been allocated an additional $100,000 in 1995-96 to resource this process and to develop a major focus on prevention initiatives. In regard to the department's direct service provision it is important to ensure that intervention occurs in a timely manner and responds to the level of risk in each situation. This will be addressed by a number of initiatives: first, the employment of an additional 60 child protection specialists in the department by Christmas - the delivery of a pre-election promise I made, which accounts for the substantial increase in staffing in this program area, to which the Hon. Dorothy Isaksen alluded in her question - second, more effective ways of working with notifications to prevent renotifications; and, third, more effective ways of working with the most complex child protection cases. This includes the establishment of a panel of medical, legal and family policy experts to provide advice directly to front-line workers in developing case plans to ensure the protection of children.

Finally, there is under way a review of the legislative base that underpins the department's activities to provide a wider range of departmental responses to family crises and to ensure that the level of intervention is appropriate. Reforms to the Department of Community Services grants program will also be undertaken to ensure that funded programs have a clearly defined client group consistent with target need groups. Planning processes at a local level will integrate the efforts of the department's direct services with the funded services in an area.

The Hon. ANN SYMONDS: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 233, program 25.1, Care and Protection, subprogram 25.1.3, Child Care, concerning the budget allocation for capital works. The estimated expenditure on capital works for child-care services for 1994-95 and the actual expenditure appear to
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indicate an underexpenditure of something like $3 million. Can the Minister advise on the plans for capital expenditure and any other initiatives that will enable the families of New South Wales to access new child-care resources and provide children with valuable developmental opportunities?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: Although families were desperate for child-care places to allow them to work, to deal with family crises and emergencies, and to provide valuable developmental opportunities for their children, for four years the previous Government failed to sign the expanded national child-care strategy. During the election campaign, the Premier gave a number of undertakings to immediately resolve any problems with the agreement. I might add that personally I made a promise that I would sign the agreement within weeks of coming to office, and I state here and now that I did in fact do that. A joint agreement was reached in April 1995 to the expanded national child-care strategy covering the years 1992-96, which will deliver 1,988 centre-based long day-care places, 460 direct partnership long day-care places, 1,122 places for family day care and 5,723 out-of-school-hours care places. New South Wales will provide full capital funding for centre-based long day-care places and the usual State operational subsidies for all long day-care places. Important new components of the strategy include - and the first matter is very important - the targeting of 502 long day-care places in New South Wales for vulnerable families, that is, families that might have children at risk.

The Hon. ANN SYMONDS: That is a significant breakthrough.

The Hon. R. D. DYER: Yes, and I am proud to claim that it is the first time that such an allocation has been made. Provision has also been made for the establishment of up to 40 per cent of long day care, family day care and outside school hours. Another component of the strategy will be care places as innovative service models; the option to fund multipurpose centres and add-ons to existing services, including preschools; provision by New South Wales of 15 per cent of the current Commonwealth operational subsidy for year-round, out-of-school-hours places, as a State contribution for the vacation-care component of the year-round places; coordination with TAFE, the Department of School Education, employers and local government to ensure integrated program development; and a joint Commonwealth and State planning process with regional consultative mechanisms for both urban and remote communities.

In signing the memorandum of understanding with the Commonwealth Government to progress the expanded national child-care strategy the State committed itself to allocating 20 per cent of the available resources in 1995-96. To that end I directed that planning be undertaken as a matter of urgency to ensure that allocations could be made to service providers as soon as funds were available from the budget. I have forwarded a schedule of approved recommendations for the allocation of 285 of the 398 long day-care places available this financial year to the Commonwealth Minister for Family Services for her joint approval. It is expected that funds will be allocated to providers in the very near future, and that proposals to allocate the remaining 113 places will be finalised within a matter of weeks.

In addition, the Government has made a commitment to provide $3.85 million to create an additional 4,000 new State only funded places. I must stress that this is additional to the Commonwealth places flowing from the signing of the strategy that the previous Government failed to sign. The additional State provision means 650 extra preschool places, 900 extra occasional-care places, 1,300 extra vacation-care places, and 1,000 extra places for access and affordability measures. I have already approved the allocation of 90 new preschool places for services in very high-need areas of the State. The remainder of these resources will be allocated in the context of the State strategic plan, which will be finalised in January 1996. I am sure you will agree that in a time of undoubted economic restraint, this is a significant and substantial commitment by the Government to the wellbeing of children and families in New South Wales.

The Hon. A. B. MANSON: My question relates to the signing of the new SAAP agreement, and I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 234, program 25.2, Crisis Support and Accommodation. Will the Minister explain the role and support of the new five-year agreement to continue the support accommodation assistance agreement, which the New South Wales Government has recently entered into with the Commonwealth? How will this assist in improving the delivery of services to homeless people in New South Wales?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: I was very pleased recently to be able to sign, on behalf of the State Government, this new SAAP agreement through which accommodation and other support services are provided for homeless people. With a budget in 1995-96 of $83.07 million, the SAAP program funds 477 services throughout New South Wales, providing in excess of 4,000 beds to people who are homeless and in crisis. People who are homeless are amongst the most marginalised and vulnerable in our community. They include women, children and young people forced out of their homes by domestic violence and conflict, as well as single adults and families in crisis. Despite the importance of this agreement to the welfare of very needy groups in our community, I point out that the previous Government took no action to finalise it for eight months, while the Labor Government had the agreement signed within four months of taking office.

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The SAAP operates on five-year agreements to provide a mechanism to review how the program is operating. Towards the end of the last agreement in 1992 there was a national evaluation of SAAP. A major outcome of the evaluation was a concern that SAAP needed to focus more on helping homeless people back to living independently in the community. The program has to do more for homeless people than offer them a bed for the night. Under the new SAAP agreement there is an increased emphasis on looking at the reasons that individual people have become homeless and identifying what sort of aid - whether it is help towards getting appropriate job training or access to health care for drug abuse, or mediation to help reconcile a family - can assist in getting that particular individual back to an independent life in the community.

No-one pretends this is an easy task. With homeless people there is often a range of factors - family breakdown, drug abuse, chronic unemployment, psychiatric illness - that have helped tip them into crisis. But it is now being emphasised in the SAAP that a major aim of the program must be to help homeless people break out of the homelessness cycle. This will usually happen in two ways: by improving the actual delivery of services and by making the system more responsive to the needs of homeless people. The Government is actively promoting a range of strategies to ensure that this does happen.

CHAIR: The time for questions for the Government has concluded.

The Hon. A. B. MANSON: We did not start until about three o'clock.

CHAIR: It is by agreement.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: Before you conclude, Madam Chair, I still have a couple of questions. Can I put them on notice?

CHAIR: No, I am sorry, it cannot be done.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: On notice?

CHAIR: No.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: Is the Minister willing to take these questions on notice?

CHAIR: It is not part of the Committee's rule, but how does the Minister feel about it?

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: It is the same thing as the Hon. J. F. Ryan did.

The Hon. R. D. DYER: I have no objection to questions being placed on notice, but I do not want to contravene the Committee's procedures.

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: My understanding was that we had a right to put questions on notice.

CHAIR: No, they had to be given on notice beforehand, but if the Minister is happy to reply to the questions on notice, we will accept that. Are you happy with that, Minister?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: Yes, I am happy to accept the questions on notice.

CHAIR: We will conclude this session of the -

The Hon. J. F. RYAN: If I could ask one further question, the next agency number is 26, Ageing and Disability Department. There is some toing-and-froing between that and the Department of Community Services. I am aware of the fact that one of the reasons the Minister wanted these things divided was so that he could let some staff go. In the next session I would not want advisers, who were relevant to HACC and so on, to be gone.

CHAIR: The Minister gives us an assurance that the advisers will still be here.

The Hon. R. D. DYER: The division of functions, so to speak, has been done essentially to prevent musical chairs occurring. However, there is no intention that advisers will disappear.

[Short adjournment]

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: I refer the Minister to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 248, subprogram 26.1.1, and specifically to the special projects line item. There has been a steady increase in the allocation between the $150,000 estimate and $179,00 actual expenditure for 1994-95 but a big increase to $435,000 for the 1995-96 estimate. What is the reason for that sevenfold increase in the special projects estimate? What are these special projects, and who will benefit from them?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: The simple answer to the question is that the seniors information line accounts for the increased expenditure. Access to information is one of the greatest problems facing older people. I am referring there to access to information about government services but also areas such as health, legal advice, community services and leisure. The Government made a pledge in its pre-election policy statement on older people to establish a 008 seniors help line. The Government announced in the budget that funding of $285,000 has been made available in 1995-96 for a seniors information line, and $300,000 will be made available in the following financial year, 1996-97. This is a major initiative which fulfils a key election promise for older people.

For the cost of a local call, older people and their family or carers will be able to access a comprehensive service including information on housing, health, aged care, education, leisure and financial matters. The service will be tendered to a non-government provider and managed through the Ageing and Disability Department. It will link with existing regional information services, rather than duplicating them. The establishment of the line will take account of the evaluation of such a service commissioned in 1993. It will also take account of the existing information services for older people, such as those run by the Council on the Ageing and
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the Combined Pensioners and Superannuants Association, and new technologies such as the 1300 numbers. The seniors information line is expected to be operational in the first half of 1996.

The Hon. J. F. RYAN: I wish to ask questions about Home and Community Care program funding.

CHAIR: Could you specify the page and item.

The Hon. J. F. RYAN: It becomes difficult because it bounces between two agencies. I am referring to subprogram 26.1.1 where a series of items are listed. In order for the question to make sense I have to refer to the commentary on it given in Budget Paper No. 2, at pages 4-47 and 4-48.

CHAIR: I only allow this question because you gave prior notice of it.

The Hon. J. F. RYAN: I did not on this one. I realise that according to previous rulings we cannot refer to Budget Paper No. 2, but in many instances that budget paper provides information which specifically comments on material in the estimates. I suggest that in those instances I would be entitled to refer to the commentary that Budget Paper No. 2 makes specifically on the line items to which I am referring.

The Hon. R. D. DYER: I have no objection.

CHAIR: You may proceed, Mr Ryan.

The Hon. J. F. RYAN: In Budget Paper No. 2, on page 4-49, above the list, it is stated that the New South Wales contribution will be $93.4 million to the HACC program. I understand that last year the previous Government gave $900,000 less. That is the only difference between the Government's contribution this year and the previous Government's contribution last year. How does that fulfil your election promise to increase in real terms the State contribution to the HACC budget?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: The Government is clearly committed to the provision of an effective range of services to frail older people, people with disabilities and their carers in this State through the Home and Community Care program. Services are designed to ensure that individuals are able to remain living at home rather than be forced into long-term residential care such as nursing homes. The Carr Labor Government in its election platform indicated its support for the HACC program and recognised the important role it plays in the community by providing a commitment to real growth in the program. The Government has delivered on its election commitment by providing real growth in the program of $4.5 million in 1995-96. That funding is on top of provision for cost indexation for all services. Total funding for the HACC program in 1995-96 will be $239 million, which is a figure referred to halfway down page 4-49 of Budget Paper No. 2.

In a budget marked by fiscal restraint, the level of growth to which I am referring demonstrates the Government's real commitment to the HACC program. We have demonstrated that commitment in other ways as well. For example, in June this year the Government, along with all State, Territory and Commonwealth Ministers, agreed to a number of program improvements as a result of the efficiency and effectiveness review of the HACC program. The key directions of that review include the development of improved strategic planning and performance reporting, the movement towards funding services on outputs and outcomes for consumers, streamlining administration at all levels of the program, and the development of improved assessment and targeting strategies. I can assure the Hon. J. F. Ryan of the Government's continuing commitment to the home and community care program. It is interesting to contrast that with the record of the previous Government, which had a limited commitment to the program. Indeed, in 1993-94 no extra funds at all were provided by the previous Government to HACC to enhance services. Decisions concerning allocation of growth funds, to which I have referred in this answer, are now being considered as part of the annual HACC planning process.

The Hon. J. F. RYAN: I note your answer, but I would like to look at some of its detail. You said the State Government indicated before the election that it was committed to a growth in the HACC program. In fact, it said more specifically that the State Labor Government, in Labor's plans for older people, would increase state funding in real terms for the home and community care program. Is it true that the State Government's contribution to the HACC program has increased in real terms, when the budget papers would indicate that you have added $900,000 in State contributions and that would not constitute real funding increase?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: Quite simply, the answer is that the State Government has increased funding from State sources in real terms to the HACC program. The additional funding this financial year amounts to $4.5 million.

The Hon. J. F. RYAN: Can the Minister provide some detail by means of an answer to a question upon notice?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: The increased funding is $4.5 million from State sources and $8 million from Commonwealth sources. However, we want to make the point very clearly that there is real growth at State level by way of contribution to the HACC program.

The Hon. J. F. RYAN: I have the same problem you have with the community services grants program. Will you undertake to provide, under the line items, a more detailed explanation as to the CSGP, because members of the community are asking questions in relation to it, and I would like it further expanded.

Page 2605

The Hon. R. D. DYER: If you furnish a formal question on notice, that information can be supplied.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: I refer to page 248 of Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, subprogram 26.1.1, the line item referring to other services and the Disability Council. There is a big slash from $188,000 to $82,000. Why was there a big cut? Where was the cut? What areas have been affected by the cut?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: I will ask Ms Woodruff to respond to this question.

Ms WOODRUFF: In fact, the additional money that is listed in the budget papers referred to a rollover in funds for the previous year of $110,000, which was approved by the previous Minister of the portfolio. That $110,000 was used only for one-off items. It was in fact an E item. I have a list of what it was made up of. Would you like me to list all the items that made up the $110,000?

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: Yes, I would.

Ms WOODRUFF: Access awareness program, $5,000; transport research, with money transferred for that purpose to the Department of Transport, $7,000; the Guardianship Board received $7,500, again for research; $10,000 was used by the Disability Council; money was made available for a study of consumers and Home Care Services, $35,000; ministerial launch, $5,000; disability guidelines, $5,000; and community consultation money, $26,000. That totals $110,000.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: That is $110,000 since 1994-95?

Ms WOODRUFF: That is right, rollover money and, therefore, one-off money to be expended.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: In fact the $82,000 is an increase?

Ms WOODRUFF: Yes, that is right, against the $66,000.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: In what area was the increase?

Ms WOODRUFF: All of those things I have just read out.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: But this is the one-off amount of $110,000.

Ms WOODRUFF: You mean the difference between the $82,000 and the $66,000?

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: Yes.

Ms WOODRUFF: I imagine that is subject to decisions within the Disability Council about how it will allocate its money.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: You do not know the programs?

Ms WOODRUFF: The Disability Council is an independent body. Although it is attached to the Ageing and Disability Department, it is independent in that members of the council are appointed by the Minister and report directly to the Minister, so their programs are discussed with the Minister.

[Time expired.]

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: I refer to page 248 of Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, the line item referring to minor user charges. I understand Home Care Services fees have now been transferred. How are those minor user charges calculated? Are they means tested, or do all those who receive support in their homes pay the same fees?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: In responding to that question I will ask Ms Marianne Hammerton to assist me. It is a matter of detail.

Ms HAMMERTON: As I read it, that does not refer to Home Care Services. The Home Care Services line is the one above. I am not sure what minor user charges refer to.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: I assume it has something to do with aged persons paying for something.

Ms HAMMERTON: I do not believe that is home care.

The Hon. R. D. DYER: Perhaps we could take that question on notice.

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: Like the Hon. J. F. Ryan, I am concerned about items on pages 248, 259 and 261 of Budget Paper No. 3, which all refer to the home and community care program and Community Care Services. The Treasury estimates inflation to be 4.3 per cent. The recent government review of the HACC program concluded that HACC services currently meet only half the demand. Because of the growth rate of the ageing population, demand is growing at the rate of 2.7 per cent per annum. Why have existing HACC services been given only 0.9 per cent indexation, even though the director-general has indicated that negotiations are currently taking place which may impact on the level of indexation which is finally agreed between the State and the Commonwealth? Ms Woodruff also stated that 0.9 per cent is the minimum level of indexation to be provided. If your services can receive a higher level of indexation, will the money come from funds allocated to new services, or will you be in a position to allocate extra money?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: In responding to the question asked by the Hon. Elisabeth Kirkby, may I firstly correct an error I unfortunately made a short time ago. The figure of $4.5 million for growth funding for HACC is not solely a State contribution; it is a joint State and Commonwealth contribution. I will take the previous question on notice to the extent of ascertaining the amount of a separate State
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contribution. However, growth funds have been provided at State level to the HACC program for this financial year. The Hon. Elisabeth Kirkby has also referred to indexation for the HACC program this financial year and reference has been made to 0.9 per cent. I am advised that at this point internal discussions are continuing regarding the level of indexation, but the position is not totally resolved or finalised at this stage.

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: I wish to ask a supplementary question. Is it true that the Commonwealth has offered New South Wales a 5.78 per cent increase? If that is not the right figure, can you tell the Committee what the right figure is? Is it also true that because New South Wales failed to match the Commonwealth offer, almost $4 million of Commonwealth funds have been lost to frail older people and younger people with disabilities and their carers who live in New South Wales?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: No. With respect, the Hon. Elisabeth Kirkby is confusing two issues. The question related to the extent of indexation, which she focused on as being 0.9 per cent, and that is the response that I have given. The honourable member is now referring to more general HACC growth fund increases.

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: Because you said there were ongoing negotiations.

The Hon. R. D. DYER: In regard to indexation, yes, not growth funds. Indexation is a separate issue.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: I refer to page 248 of Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, program 26.1, the line item referring to donations and industry contributions. In 1994-95 there was a dramatic jump in those figures to $272,000, and you are budgeting for $70,000 in 1195-96. What is the explanation for that increase, and does it mean there has been some decrease in industry support or donations from outside bodies? What steps have been taken to encourage those contributions to your department?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: We believe that the line item refers to the Seniors Card. It is certainly in the ageing area. I will have to ask that the question be placed on notice so that we can give a full and definitive reply.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: Industry may have contributed to that special project?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: Yes, that possibly is the case, but to be absolutely certain of the position I would like to have the question put on notice.

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: In view of the answer you have just given to Reverend the Hon. F. J. Nile - and I refer again to page 245, the line item referring to the financial summary, under operating statement, expenses, other services - will the allocation for the Ageing and Disability Department be adequate to fund enhancements to the Seniors Card, the integrated community care demonstration project and the Seniors Media Network Council?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: In regard to the Seniors Card, a proposal was put forward as part of the budget process to extend the Seniors Card scheme to spouses of card members aged 55 to 59 years. The proposal is not going ahead certainly for this financial year. The cost of the extension would have been approximately $5 million in 1995-96 with an escalating cost to approximately $12 million per annum by 1997-98. The Government's view is that that cost could not be justified on equity grounds, given its more pressing commitments to target maximum resources to the key areas of health, community services, law enforcement and education. However, I point out that the New South Wales Seniors Card scheme is the largest and best scheme in Australia. The card in New South Wales now has more than 760,000 members with more than 3,400 participating businesses. Government travel discounts for card members are the most advantageous in Australia.

Next year the Government will be introducing regional directories for card members to replace the existing State directory. The Government will encourage more businesses to participate and to be listed in the directories. Already there is a record number of businesses in New South Wales - 3,400 - and the introduction of these directories will not be at any cost to the Government. The Government has already removed admission charges for Seniors Card members at the Australia Museum and Powerhouse Museum, and the Government will ensure that the scheme continues to be improved for the benefit of all Seniors Card members.

As to the community care demonstration projects, funding is available for this purpose from the operating expenses of the department. As for the Seniors Media Network Council, it has not been possible to continue the funding for the council this financial year. However, a number of the council's projects have been funded by the Directorate on Ageing. A media training course for older people was completed in August this year, and a media content analysis on the portrayal of older people in the media was completed in September. I will shortly be launching a media directory on older people to give journalists, producers and researchers direct access to older spokespeople on a range of mainstream and ageing issues. Future work on improving the portrayal of older people in the media will be addressed in the wider context of the healthy ageing component of the Government's aged care policy, which I am developing with my colleague the Minister for Health, Dr Refshauge.

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: In view of what you just said about the Seniors Media Network Council, and looking at your operating expenses - you said that the integrated community
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care demonstration projects will come out of your operating expenses - do you agree that the estimate for other operating expenses has decreased from 1994-95 to 1995-96 by some $2 million?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: Which line item are you referring to?

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: This is on page 245, expenses -

The Hon. R. D. DYER: Pardon me. When you keep saying page 245, do you mean page 248?

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: No, I mean page 245. In your previous reply you said that integrated community care demonstration projects would be funded out of the operating expenses of your department. I am asking you whether that relates to line item, other operating expenses, because the sum of money expended in 1994-95 was more than $6 million, but your estimate for this financial year is only $4 million.

The Hon. R. D. DYER: I ask Miss Woodruff to answer this question.

Ms WOODRUFF: Under the previous Government there was a two-year program for positive ageing which was funded. Some items of that program have not been funded in this year's budget, hence the difference in other operating expenses on page 245. There are still resources available for a number of programs within the ageing area but the enhancements that would have built on the previous activities of the then Office on Ageing have not been available.

The Hon. DOROTHY ISAKSEN: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, page 248 relating to the Commonwealth-State disability agreement. I understand that the attendant care program is contained within this line item. Can you indicate how these funds will be utilised, and what benefits will be provided for people with disabilities?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: Thank you for that question. The attendant care program is a significant program. It provides personal care assistance to people with a physical disability in the community. The program provides up to 35 hours a week support for each individual, which represents a value of approximately $43,000 per annum per consumer. This program was previously administered by the Commonwealth as part of the Commonwealth-State disability agreement. It was transferred to the New South Wales Government in July 1993. In 1995-96 the attendant care scheme will provide support to 141 consumers at a total cost of $4.6 million. Thirteen new places have recently been filled and five other places will be allocated towards the end of the year.

National principles for in-home support services as provided through the attendant care scheme have recently been developed through the disability services subcommittee. These guidelines, among other things, address the issue of consistency between States which was available before the program transferred. Work will soon be undertaken to examine the operation of the attendant care program in New South Wales to ensure its effectiveness and to develop strategies to ensure conformity to the national principles. I shall add to what I have already said. The attendant care program gives independence to a consumer that is not available under more mainstream schemes, such as via the home and community care program. People who have the benefit of attendant care are not dependent on the convenience of service providers as to when they call to render service. It is more in the nature of personalised service, and recipients of the service can specify when they require the service to be provided. It gives people almost as much independence as those who do not have any disability at all.

The Hon. ANN SYMONDS: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 245 relating to the decrease in agency cash balances. Why have all Commonwealth-State disability agreement transition funds, which progressively transferred to the States since 1993, not been expended in New South Wales?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: The Commonwealth-State disability agreement transition funds were transferred to the State from the Commonwealth under the provisions of the agreement in 1993 to facilitate the movement of services from a non-conforming to a conforming status in accordance with the requirements of the Disability Services Act. Total transition funds transferred under the CSDA arrangements to the State amounted to $31,403,000 by the end of the 1994-95 financial year. As at 30 June 1995, an amount of $22,847,000 remains available against these funds. The delay in the expenditure of the transition funds has been due to the State developing an administrative infrastructure, including the independent assessment of services against the New South Wales disability services standards and ensuring that the providers of services that do not conform are aware of the requirement to develop a transition plan in accordance with the Disability Services Act.

This process will ensure that funding for services will be tied to quality outcomes for consumers and a higher level of accountability. A process for the fair distribution of transition funds has been developed to ensure that the funds available are allocated in an equitable manner. This has resulted in a principle that the majority of transition funds should not be allocated prior to the receipt and independent assessment of all transition plans. The due date for the submission of all transition plans was 30 September 1995. All transition plans and applications for transition funding will be independently assessed and recommended prior to April 1996. All transition funding will be committed in accordance with the process for the fair allocation of transition funds by June 1996. I publicly express the hope that all the files will not come to me a few days before the end of April 1996.

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The Hon. A. B. MANSON: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, page 248 relating to the home and community care program. What provision has been made in these estimates to implement Labor's plan to improve services for people with dementia?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: Prior to the election the Carr Government released Labor's plan to improve services for people with dementia. This is a major plank of the Government's aged care policy which is currently being prepared in association with my colleague the Minister for Health. At this stage $50,000 has been committed from the budget of the Ageing and Disability Department which will ensure the plan's development and implementation in 1995-96. The overall goal of the plan is to strengthen the capacity of all State Government programs to respond to the needs of people with dementia and their carers.

The prevalence of dementia rises exponentially with increasing age. The New South Wales Alzheimer's Association, which has been working closely with the Government on this plan, estimates that there are currently about 55,000 people in New South Wales with moderate to severe levels of dementia, and at least another 50,000 people in the early stages of dementia. The prevalence of dementia is predicted to rise by about 90 per cent from 1987 to the year 2011. A reference group of relevant Government and non-government agencies and individuals is being formed to coordinate the plan's implementation under the auspices of the Government's Ageing and Disability Department. The Government also announced on World Alzheimer's Day in September the first major initiative of the dementia action plan: a grant of $200,000 from the HACC program for implementation of a dementia learning program among home and community care services providers. This complements the $79,200 made available by the Commonwealth Government.

Labor's plan to improve services for people with dementia covers areas such as health and community services, legal protection for people with dementia, and education and training. There were detailed consultations undertaken in the second half of 1994 regarding the content of a New South Wales action plan on dementia. Implementation of the plan takes account of the recommendations made to the Government as a result of those consultations. New South Wales is the first State to develop such a plan addressing the needs of people with dementia, demonstrating our continuing commitment to dementia care.

The Hon. DOROTHY ISAKSEN: In Budget Paper No. 3 at page 248 there is reference to the line item, assistance to disabled, and I understand that the post-schools option program is included in this line item. Can the Minister indicate how these funds will be utilised and what benefits will be provided for school leavers with disabilities?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: The aim of the post-schools options program is to provide services to eligible school leavers to enable greater focus on assisting their transition from school life to independent living in the community. In 1994-95 the previous Government provided $7.5 million for the post-school options program. In 1995-96, $14.6 million has been allocated on a recurrent basis to establish post-school options services for eligible school leavers. The post-school options program in this State represents a landmark change in the way that the Government provides disability services. The program is about enabling young people with disabilities leaving school to undertake a seamless transition from school to community living. Such a process requires young people and their families to set goals for the future. Such goals may include undertaking vocational training, entering employment and enhancing independence to enable the individual to remain living at home with his or her family.

As such, the post-school options program is about fostering independence and the meeting of life goals. The program provides for a range of individually tailored services, including day activity and training programs, respite care, accommodation support and independent living skills training. The program also enables young people to link into the broader range of services provided by the Government for people with disabilities. The program has established a range of services throughout the State and is building upon the transition planning process, which has been developed for school leavers by the Department of School Education. The program has received significant support from the community since its inception. The value of the program is its capacity to enable young people to participate as full members of the community.

The Hon. ANN SYMONDS: In Budget Paper No. 3 at page 248 there is reference to the line item assistance to the disabled. How has the Government spent the funds allocated to the supported accommodation package for people with disabilities? How much money is allocated to that program?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: The Government has provided 383 supported accommodation places for individuals with disabilities in New South Wales. These have been used to provide 10 places in the attendant care scheme for people with physical disabilities and 373 places for people with intellectual and other disabilities. Of the 373 places, 83 have been allocated to disadvantaged people with a disability; that has arisen from the closure of the Watagan centre, a large private institution. The remaining 290 places have been allocated across the State based on equity of access to current resources. The supported accommodation places include accommodation, access to day programs and program support. In other words, they are not merely accommodation; they are a package. This will ensure that the full range of services and support is available to the individual to enhance development and lifestyle.

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The opportunity exists with the 290 places for individuals to choose the accommodation option that best meets their individual needs. For some people this will be access to a group home; for others it will be a more individualised accommodation option based on preference and needs. The process of matching process providers to individuals is nearing completion. The first group of people accessing the scheme will commence prior to the end of the 1995 calendar year. In the meantime, if families or individuals require support in current accommodation before they take up their new option, this will be provided. A total of $29 million was made available for the Watagan centre clients and the 300 places to which I have referred.

The Hon. J. F. RYAN: Could I place another question on notice? A number of items were shown across this budget referring to a decrease in agency cash balances. In the instance of this particular program it is $29 million. Could the Minister provide to the Committee an explanation of what that means.

CHAIR: Is the Minister agreeable?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: I have no objection to that question being placed on notice.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: I refer the Minister to page 256 of Budget Paper No. 3 Volume 1, line item average staffing. From 1994-95 staffing decreased from 991 to 985 in 1995-95. What positions have been cut? In 1994-95, of the total of 991, how many staff worked in the internal audit section? In 1995-96 how many staff will work in the internal audit section?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: The Hon. Helen Sham-Ho has asked a question dealing with average staffing and identifying a decrease in staffing from 1994-95 to 1995-96. The decrease is both minimal and marginal given that the average staffing in the last financial year was 991 and the forecast is 985, a difference of six. I am advised that the staff in question will come entirely from the department's head office. It could well be that they will be largely confined to the corporate services area. Another factor could be the contracting out of internal audit services.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: What is the staffing level in the internal audit section?

Mr SALZMANN: Since we were established as a department, our internal audit function has always been contracted out. We do not have any permanent staff.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: So you expect in the 1995-96 year that the internal audit section -

Mr SALZMANN: Will also be contracted out.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: Also on page 256 there is reference to the line item total admissions in juvenile justice centres. Those admissions have increased from 6,300 in 1994-95 to an estimated 6,347 in 1995-96. How many of those admissions are people of non-English speaking backgrounds or Aboriginal people? Knowing that both of those groups usually are overrepresented, are there any special programs to cater for their needs to ensure that they are not overrepresented in juvenile detention?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: Taking Aboriginal young people as an example, it is true that they are heavily overrepresented in juvenile detention centres. They represent some 28 per cent of all young people in detention centres throughout the State, notwithstanding that young Aboriginals represent only 1.8 per cent of the general population of the State. Clearly, there is an appalling overrepresentation of young Aboriginal people in the juvenile justice system. I do not have at my fingertips the percentage that might be represented by people of non-English speaking backgrounds, though it is true that some ethnic groups are overrepresented in the juvenile detention system. The Government is acutely aware of the overrepresentation of young Aboriginal people particularly. At present I am working on a number of programs, such as the bail hostel program, an Aboriginal mentor program and other programs, in an endeavour to lessen the overrepresentation of young Aboriginal people in juvenile detention. I would ask Mr Buttrum to supplement my answer.

Mr BUTTRUM: There is an overrepresentation of Arabic, Indochinese, and South Pacific islander children. At the moment we have plans to concentrate our post-release white paper money on services to those people. We are in the process of negotiating with organisations that are totally familiar with those children to provide those services through white paper funding. Those organisations are very anxious to help us. The purpose of those services will be to provide assistance to young people of those groups appearing in court to ensure that their legal representatives have the appropriate background of these kids. If they are released on bail, it will be the role of those staff, funded under white paper money, to support those children on probation; to negotiate any difficulties they have with their families, which is often the case with Indochinese children; and also to provide after-care support for those young people released from detention. This service will endeavour to break the cycle so that there will be continuing support for these young people.

The Hon. J. F. RYAN: Could the Minister refer to the particular line item that refers to white paper money, to which Mr Buttrum referred?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: I am advised that it is referred to in the line item grants and subsidies at page 254, which represents an estimate of $1.8 million for 1995-96. It is also included in the line item that refers to other services, which estimates $5.742 million for 1995-96.

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The Hon. J. F. RYAN: Could the Minister provide details of the other services?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: I could give a very detailed response regarding all sorts of programs that we have in mind.

The Hon. J. F. RYAN: I seek leave to incorporate the Minister's answer in Hansard.

Leave granted.

______

The department received consolidated recurrent appropriation for the white paper of $2.6 million for 1994-95. The funds for last year were not fully expended due to the delay in the original funding approval which was not given until August 1994. This led to a longer than expected time for planning and project implementation. Notwithstanding this several major achievements took place during 1994-95:

* Local offender programs have been developed and implemented across the State to target those young people in the community most at risk of becoming involved in juvenile crime.

* Specialist mental health services are now being contracted for by juvenile justice centres. Where child/adolescent units are unavailable, private fee-for-service psychiatrists are utilised.

Consultants in adolescent psychiatry have been engaged for brief contracts with both the young women in custody and the Robinson programs. Plans to recruit contracted family therapists for training and assessment work, especially to support the work of specialist therapeutic units, are under way.

* Sessional supervisors are now assisting in the supervision of juvenile offenders serving community service orders and this has enabled the expansion of the scheme.

* An accommodation fee scheme provides funding for use by the Department of Juvenile Justice to find short-term or crisis accommodation for juveniles in contact with the juvenile justice system. The scheme responds to the significant number of juveniles in the system whose accommodation needs were not being met owing to such factors as homelessness, family breakdown or some mental related condition (eg, drug or alcohol abuse).

* Accommodation options are also being explored which involve recruitment of individual carers for juveniles who are bail refused or cannot meet their bail conditions.

An accommodation placement program called the "Safehaven Program" has been operating successfully in Wagga Wagga. Carers engaged in the program are recruited by the Department of Juvenile Justice. Fostering authorities are issued pursuant to the Children (Care and Protection) Act by the Wagga Wagga office of the Department of Community Services.

* Seven Aboriginal program development officers were recruited to consult with Aboriginal communities and organisations and assist in the development and establishment of programs relevant to Aboriginal young offenders.

* Expressions of interest were sought for the development and establishment of an Aboriginal bail hostel in the Sydney metropolitan area.

* Six juvenile justice officers were employed to staff the community youth conferencing scheme in six areas around the State. The scheme is targeted at minor offenders and falls between cautioning and court proceedings in the intervention hierarchy. Fundamental to the scheme is the emphasis upon parental responsibility, community involvement and (voluntary) victim.

* A legal officer was appointed to undertake a complete review of juvenile justice legislation. As a first priority the officer has been undertaking extensive review and research work on the proposal to increase the statutory maximum number of community service hours to 250 and reviewing the offences and misbehaviour provisions of the Children (Detention Centres) Act and regulations.

* Work commenced on the development of an additional sentencing option, to be known as an attendance centre order. The order will require juvenile offenders to successfully complete an intensive program with components addressing offending behaviour, developmental and personal issues, and the acquisition of skills for community re-integration.

* Two project officers who are responsible for community based program development have conducted research on the use of supervised probation and recognisance. The mentor scheme is proposed as a means of providing support and assistance to juvenile justice officers in the supervision of young people sentenced to these orders.

* A joint protocol arrangements committee was established between the police and the Department of Juvenile Justice to develop mechanisms to allow all transport requirements of juvenile offenders to be undertaken by Department of Juvenile Justice staff. All information and practices relating to the transport of juvenile offenders have been reviewed and a report provided.

* A program has been introduced to assist families to visit juveniles who are residents of juvenile justice centres. Accommodation is provided on some sites and financial assistance is offered to eligible families to contribute to the travel and accommodation costs met in visiting a centre. This assistance is available through local community juvenile justice offices.

* A sub-committee of the interdepartmental committee on juvenile justice has been set up to monitor the effect of new policies relating to wards, and to advise and implement strategies to reduce the significant numbers of wards who drift towards delinquency and more serious crimes. There is a renewed emphasis on co-operation between the departments of juvenile justice and community services to provide a more integrated service to juveniles. This emphasis is designed to bring about a reduction in the overall number of young people making their way into custody.

* A sub-committee of the interdepartmental committee on juvenile justice has also been set up to implement a variety of research and evaluation projects. Research has commenced into factors affecting police bail determinations. The collection of enhanced ethnicity and aboriginality data in the courts will soon permit an ethnicity based analysis of sentencing trends and program delivery.

______

The Hon. J. F. RYAN: I commend the Government for including the outcomes and outputs material in the budget. I think it is high time that they were, but everything appears to be pretty much the same this year and last year. What impact do you expect the white paper to make across your
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budget, given that it recommends fairly radical change to the department's operations, although that does not appear to be reflected in the department's budget?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: To a very large extent the department's budget -

[Time expired.]

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: In Budget Paper No. 3, page 256, the line item on outputs, the average number of juveniles held in detention in an average week has steadily increased from 372 in 1992-93 to 466 in 1994-95. The budget for 1995-96 assumes 516 detainees per week. Why do your departmental advisers believe the number of juveniles incarcerated will increase? What is being done to divert juveniles from detention to non-custodial alternatives? If you look at the total number of community based orders, they are not increasing very rapidly.

The Hon. R. D. DYER: In March 1994 the average number of detainees was in the order of 400. That had increased by March 1995, immediately prior to the present Government coming to office, to approximately 500 detainees throughout the State, and that is a cause for concern. To an extent the Department of Juvenile Justice is a passive recipient of those who are sentenced to juvenile detention centres by magistrates and judges in the courts. We cannot fail to incarcerate young people who are sentenced to juvenile detention under a control order. However, I am the first to agree that there ought to be more programs to divert young people from detention. In my view community based programs can be appropriate. For example, community service order schemes are one means by which young people can be diverted from detention. There are a number of very successful subschemes operated by local government authorities in conjunction with the Department of Juvenile Justice.

In addition to that, in my view there needs to be much greater attention given to diverting young people from the system before they are convicted. Young people awaiting a hearing need assistance via bail representation schemes and the provision of bail hostels for the simple reason that in many cases - and this applies to Aboriginal young people in particular - when they appear before a magistrate they often come from a background that almost obliges the magistrate to remand them in custody because they do not have a satisfactory home environment to return to pending the hearing of the matter. If a bail hostel existed those people would not be in a juvenile detention centre awaiting a hearing. That is one factor which tends to blow out the over representation of young Aboriginal people and others in the juvenile justice system. Mr Buttrum might like to add to what I have said.

Mr BUTTRUM: We agree that there are far too many young people locked up in New South Wales compared with Victoria, for instance, where the average daily incarceration numbers are about 60. It is of grave concern that there are so many in New South Wales -

The Hon. ANN SYMONDS: Despite our report from the social issues committee?

Mr BUTTRUM: We have a real problem. We have to ensure that our front-line services are better targeted to assist with bail applications and the support of young people who are released on bail. We also have to strengthen the community service order scheme so that it is seen as a viable alternative. We have to introduce attendant centres - and two are planned in Sydney, one in the west and one closer to the city - where young people will be sentenced to attend those centres so many hours a week. We also have plans to strengthen the community youth centres that operate in three areas of Sydney - Liverpool, Blacktown and Stanmore - by placing specially trained staff who are skilled in providing services to young sex offenders and to violent offenders. These would be specially trained people who would work from those centres.

Of course, it is not the plan to place really dangerous people in those programs, but it is possible to maintain well-assessed young people in those sorts of programs. We have got to refocus the community based services at the front of the scheme in order to reduce the numbers in custody. Approximately 70 per cent of our staffing resources are involved in looking after about 15 per cent of the department's clients. If we can reasonably strengthen those coalface services at the front end of the system, we can divert some services from the rear end of the system and strengthen the community based services. I think that is the only way in the long term that we are going to reduce the numbers in custody.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 256, subprogram 28.1.1, Juvenile Justice, line item parole/post release. I note that the number in 1992-93 was only four and it has gradually increased each year and you are planning for a 100 per cent increase from 1994-95. Is that a planned policy from the department? Are they court orders or is there some other influence occurring within the judicial area?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: No, my advice is that this is purely a court determined matter. It is not a matter that results from any departmental policy. The courts decide who should be paroled.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: Does that have any effect on the department? Are you happy with that development?

Mr BUTTRUM: An increasing number of young people in detention are over the age of 17 years. Mr Salzmann mentioned to me this morning that presently there are about 516 in detention and of that number 250 are 17 years of age. A lot of the older people in the system are facing more
Page 2612
serious charges, usually dealt with by the District Court, which is more likely to place people on parole.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: They would be in that older age group, the 17 year old age group - like the three young people recently dealt with for rape offences?

Mr BUTTRUM: Yes.

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: As you said you were going to have more bail hostels, can you tell us where in the budget papers the allocation for the funding of such bail hostels can be found? I cannot find anything that suggests bail hostels expenditure or capital works on bail hostels.

The Hon. R. D. DYER: I am advised that that is catered for in Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, line item, grants and subsidies.

Mr SALZMANN: White paper money, it is a funding out service.

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: That is at page 254, $1.8 million?

Mr SALZMANN: That is correct.

Mr BUTTRUM: A bail hostel is planned for Aboriginal people in the western suburbs of Sydney at Mount Druitt to be funded to an Aboriginal organisation. We are in the process of negotiating -

[Time expired.]

The Hon. ANN SYMONDS: I refer to the capital program, set out at page 255 of Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1. It shows the total allocation for the Department of Juvenile Justice of $2.3 million. Can the Minister explain this with reference to the statements he has recently made about the closure of Minda and the building of centres at Dubbo and on the north coast?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: This year's capital allocation of $2.3 million comprises funding of $800,000 for new works and $1.5 million for annual provisions. The $800,000 new works allocation is dedicated to the establishment of a program for violent young offenders arising out of the Burdekin report. No other money has been allocated this year for major new works. Thanks to the previous Government, I regret to say I have inherited detention facilities for juvenile offenders which are so run down that around 80 per cent of the bed space is classified as unsuitable as it does not meet national or international standards and presents risks in terms of safety and security. For instance, I am appalled by the condition, in particular, of Minda Juvenile Justice Centre. Cabins have little light, little comfort and most do not even have toilets.

These young people are being punished by the deprivation of their liberty. The standard of juvenile justice centres must facilitate the rehabilitation of young people so that they do not return to the community in a worse state than when they were incarcerated. The disadvantage suffered by these young people is compounded in many cases by the fact that juvenile justice centres are concentrated around the Sydney metropolitan area. Young people from rural New South Wales are often isolated from their families and friends, making the implementation of effective casework and post-release support much more difficult.

The New South Wales Ombudsman has already commenced a review of juvenile justice centres at my request. I intend to ensure that centres are brought in line with universally accepted human rights standards and the principles outlined in various United Nations conventions dealing with young people deprived of their liberty. The review will include issues such as standards of accommodation and policies and procedures. This will ensure that new facilities that are built will be appropriately designed and that they commence with suitable practices and procedures. Subject to obtaining the necessary funding, I intend to give priority to closing Minda and constructing new juvenile justice centres in Dubbo and on the north coast. This will ensure that juvenile justice centres are distributed more evenly around the State, allowing young people from rural areas to be detained closer to their community of origin.

I have been particularly concerned about several recent cases in which young Aboriginal people, as young as 10 years old, have been held in police custody for several days pending transfer to a juvenile justice centre. In some cases this could have been avoided if juvenile justice centres were spread more evenly around the State. The Department of Juvenile Justice has prepared a comprehensive capital works strategic plan to address these problems. Estimated costs for the implementation of the strategic plan are in the order of $83.2 million over a seven year period. The expenditure which was sought in the current capital program was $56 million. Although funding for the department's total plan was not forthcoming in the budget, the Treasurer has advised me that he could be approached for one-off funding to commence certain parts of the strategic plan. I am currently writing to the Treasurer to request funding for the planning phase of the construction of the Dubbo centre and for the purchase of land on the north coast for the construction of a north coast centre.

CHAIR: The time allocated for this session has expired. The Clerk of the Committee received 11 questions on notice prior to this estimates committee hearing. How does the Minister wish to deal with those questions?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: I assume that they will be dealt with in the ordinary way following the conclusion of these proceedings. I think we are given 14 days within which to respond. Those questions will be appropriately researched and responded to.

CHAIR: You will take them on notice and they will appear in Hansard?

Page 2613

The Hon. R. D. DYER: Yes, they will be taken on notice. As I understand it, they are questions on notice.

CHAIR: I have a response to a question on notice by the Hon. J. F. Ryan. Estimates committee questions must relate to expenditure and estimates detailed in Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1 and Volume 2 - in this case, Volume 1. There is no provision for honourable members to ask questions relating to information contained in other volumes of the budget papers. I rule the honourable member's question out of order.

The Hon. J. F. RYAN: On a point of order: the question which I placed on notice was to do with a further response to an answer given by the Minister. He was happy to give answers to questions that referred to Budget Paper No. 2 and, in particular, he commented on items which appeared in Budget Paper No. 3. That is the purpose of Budget Paper No. 2. Frankly, I disagree with the ruling that honourable members cannot, when framing questions, refer to Budget Paper No. 2, particularly as it is meant to provide more information about Budget Paper No. 3.

CHAIR: Would the Minister like to comment?

The Hon. R. D. DYER: During the course of responding to one question asked by the Hon. J. F. Ryan a link was drawn between a reference to a passage in Budget Paper No. 2 and a reference in a passage in Budget Paper No. 3. However, it is not for me to tell the Committee or you, Madam Chair, what ruling to give in that regard.

CHAIR: I ruled the question out of order. Is the honourable member questioning my ruling?

The Hon. J. F. RYAN: Yes, Madam Chair.

The Hon. A. B. MANSON: Move dissent.

The Hon. J. F. RYAN: If necessary, I will move dissent. Last year at the estimates committees questions along similar lines were asked about other budget papers. Those questions were accepted by Ministers. As I understand it, in the end, it is largely at the discretion of the Minister.

CHAIR: The honourable member was required to refer to a line item. He did not.

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: On the point of order: it was on my motion that these estimates committees were established in this form. There was considerable consultation with the Leader of the Government in the Legislative Council about the form of these committees. At no time during those negotiations was it brought to our attention that we would be limited to referring to Volume 1 of Budget Paper No. 3. I realise that a ruling has been made, but I can see the problems that members of the Opposition are facing. Is it possible at this time, as we are only into the second day of budget estimates, to get another ruling from the Government to the effect that other budget papers should be included?

CHAIR: I have ruled the honourable member's question out of order.

The Committee proceeded to deliberate on the recommendation of the vote.


Page 2614






The Hon. I. Cohen The Hon. M. R. Kersten
The Hon. Jennifer Gardiner The Hon. E. M. Obeid
The Hon. R. S. L. Jones The Hon. Janelle Saffin
The Hon. J. Kaldis



The Hon. K. M. Yeadon, Minister for Land and Water Conservation

Executive
Dr C. Gellatly, Director-General
Mr P. Millington, Deputy Director-General
Mr W. Martin, Director, Regions

Integrated National Resource Program
Mr J. Halkett, Acting Assistant Director, Office of Natural Resource Policy

State Water Management Program
Mr P. Mackenzie, Director, Urban Water
Mr B. Haisman, Director, Intra State Water

Integrated Catchment Management Program
Dr I. Garrard, Director, Soil and Vegetation
Mr J. Verhoven, Director, Catchment Management and Community Services
Mr M. Geary, Director, Coastal Management

State Land Management Program
Mr M. Ockwell, Executive Director, State Lands Services
Ms S. Cleary, Deputy Director, State Lands Services
Mr D. Mooney, General Manager, Land Information Centre

Administration
Ms S. Kemp, Director, Corporate Services
Mr A. Smith, General Manager, Government Relations and Executive Services
Mr M. Sheather, Manager Corporate Finance
Mr B. Muldoon, Manager Corporate Financial Planning

Valuer General's Office
Mr P. Cunningham, Valuer General

Land Titles Office
Mr K. Nettle, Director, Land Titles Office


Page 2615
Lake Illawarra Authority
Mr D. Prosser, Chairman

State Forests
Dr H. Drielsma, Managing Director
Mr D. Staun, General Manager, Corporate Services

CHAIR: The Committee will examine the proposed expenditure from the Consolidated Fund for the portfolio of land and water conservation.

Motion by the Hon. E. M. Obeid agreed to:

That, in accordance with the resolution of the Legislative Council of 11 October 1994, the Committee authorises the sound and television broadcasting, as appropriate, of its public proceedings, unless otherwise ordered.

CHAIR: I declare that the Committee will handle questions in the following way: first there shall be 20 minutes of Government questions, then 20 minutes of crossbench questions and 20 minutes of Opposition questions for this section. I declare the proposed expenditure for the Department of Land and Water Conservation open for examination.

The Hon. J. KALDIS: I refer the Minister to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, at page 513, subprogram 51.3.1, Catchment Management and Community Services. Could the Minister indicate what funding will be provided in this subprogram to support water catchment management in New South Wales?

Mr YEADON: Total catchment management, TCM, is a partnership between the community and the Government. It is about cooperation and integration of activities to address natural resources management issues in New South Wales and has been progressively implemented with bipartisan support in New South Wales since the proclamation of the Catchment Management Act in 1989. Ninety-nine per cent of this State is covered under the TCM structure and I am currently considering options for the remaining area, Sydney Harbour catchment, which includes the Parramatta River below the weir at Parramatta. The Carr Government has a strong commitment to the TCM philosophy, as evidenced by the bringing together of the former Department of Conservation and Land Management and the Department of Water Resources and related functions from within the Public Works Department.

The improved institutional arrangement of the new Department of Land and Water Conservation will enhance coordination and ensure a more holistic approach to natural resources management in New South Wales. The Government has allocated $5 million as an enhancement to TCM to fund community action, including group projects which assist in delivering the Government's agenda of sustainable natural resources management. The bulk of this enhancement will be distributed by the TCM structure to provide essential funding for joint venture community group projects that undertake works on the ground. These projects will be for the implementation of catchment and regional plans which have high community benefit in social, economic and environmental terms. The funds will be matched dollar for dollar by the applicants, realising a minimum of $6 million for natural resources management activity and potentially much more than that in the future.

The $5 million allocation will keep faith with the community in demonstrating the commitment of the Labor Government to total catchment management. It will provide funds to the highly successful and visible LandCare movement and ensure ongoing community group activity on natural resources and management issues. Total catchment management in New South Wales is a model for integrated catchment management in Australia. The Government certainly wants to ensure that it continues, and that it receives international recognition, because it is an effective program which integrates partnership between the Government and the community. The funds that have been allocated will allow continued excellence in coordinated and cooperative implementation in relation to TCM.

The Hon. E. M. OBEID: I refer the Minister to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 503 and the forest policy program. An allocation of $35 million is provided for a forestry industry restructure package. Could the Minister explain why these funds are required and how they will be expended?

Mr YEADON: The appropriation of $35 million is the first instalment of a five-year, $60 million forest structural adjustment package which forms part of the Government's historic forestry reforms. The budget allocation meets the funding commitments outlined in the Government's forest policy, a comprehensive policy 18 pages in length, which the Labor Party took to the election. The reforms underline the Government's clear commitment to implementing the measures envisaged in the national forest policy statement and the Government's own forest policy. The structural adjustment package underpins the Government's forest conservation reforms. The Government recognises that people affected by its conservation reforms ought to be provided with appropriate assistance. Draft guidelines for assistance under this package are currently the subject of consultation with relevant stakeholders, including conservationists, industry and unions.

The Government's forestry reforms will ensure a viable sawlog-driven timber industry and will protect areas of forest with high conservation value.
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There will be a transition from logging old-growth and wilderness forest towards a reliance on plantation and regrowth forest, and an increased emphasis on value adding in the timber processing area. Logging has already been transferred from high conservation value old-growth and wilderness forest to essentially regrowth and plantation. An early assessment is being undertaken by the Resource and Conservation Assessment Council that the Government has set up as part of its reform agenda. The council is charged with undertaking environmental assessment, which includes the identification of forest areas of high conservation value. When that assessment is completed, which is expected to be around mid-1996, a moratorium will be placed on those areas identified as having high-conservation value, pending the completion of a regional forest agreement or agreements.

To bring the timber industry into a sustainable yield basis, hardwood sawlog quotas will be reduced by 30 per cent from July 1996 in coastal regions and 40 per cent in the Eden management area. The Government made a major announcement in that regard on 13 June this year. The reduction would have been necessary even if no other decisions had been taken, simply because past levels of logging were too high and unsustainable. Given that 46 per cent of quota-quality sawlogs have been sourced from old-growth forests, the Government's announced reforms will have some impact on the hardwood industry and on employment levels. The Government's reforms will require an acceleration of the process of industry restructuring. The process includes the following elements: increased capability to saw regrowth hardwood logs; increased utilisation of every log taken to a mill; a shift in market focus from market sectors where hardwoods are in competition with softwoods, instead putting a concentration on end uses in which the intrinsic qualities of hardwoods, for example, strength, durability and beauty, give them an advantage in the market; increased value adding, including kiln drying and further processing of dried timber; the transfer of some investment and employment to the rapidly growing softwood sector, which is already very much under way; and development of the domestic processing of small woods including medium-density fibre board, pulp and so on.

In 1995-96, $35 million is being appropriated for the structural adjustment package, which is being designated to provide assistance with redeployment, relocation, retraining and, as a last resort, redundancy measures for timber workers in the industry. Key features include the development of specific training courses; training allowances, assistance with books and other training materials; relocation assistance of up to $20,000, which will be by receipt; a special redundancy payment a little above award standard; compensation for log supply and transport contractors; and programs to assist industry to adapt to different log supplies and to increase value-added processing of forest products. The structural adjustment package will be overseen by a tripartite committee with representatives of employers, the union and the Government. A tribunal will assess claims by log-supply and transport contractors within the industry. Administration of the package will be managed by a specifically established unit within the Department of Land and Water Conservation.

aLegislation is being passed through the Parliament allowing funds to be made available from the environmental trusts - I am sure that all honourable members will recall that legislation going through the Parliament last week. The allocation of funds from this source is evidence of the high priority placed by this Government on the need to protect native forests of high conservation value. The Commonwealth Government is committed to provide supplementary financial assistance towards the total cost of the package in order to achieve the objectives of the national forest policy statement. Details of arrangements for Commonwealth-State cooperation in delivering the package are now being finalised, with discussions going on with the Federal Government. The forest industry restructure package is tangible evidence that the Government is committed to support both forest conservation and a viable forest industry.

The Hon. J. KALDIS: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, at page 519, program 51.3, Integrated Catchment Management Services. A sum of $1,499,000 has been allocated under other operating expenses for programs including the implementation of State environmental planning policy 46. Could the Minister please explain what the funds are to be used for and what is the purpose of SEPP 46?

Mr YEADON: Despite the appearance of some raging controversy, the Government believes that SEPP 46 is working well and effectively. The clearing of native vegetation causes biodiversity loss and land degradation problems such as rising ground water, dry land salinity, soil structural decline and soil acidification. Figures released by the National Parks and Wildlife Service indicate that between 1974 and 1989, 60 per cent of native vegetation on the western slopes of New South Wales had been cleared. I recently released dry land salinity maps that show that up to five million hectares or 6 per cent of the State could be at risk from dry land salinity. Native vegetation clearing is a major contributing factor to the rising watertables which cause the dry land salinity.

In recognition of the need to achieve environmental objectives of land degradation control, biodiversity and conservation of wildlife habitat, balanced with ongoing sustainable production, the Government has introduced State environmental planning policy 46. SEPP 46 requires proponents of broad-scale clearing, unless exempt, to obtain consent from the Department of Land and Water Conservation before undertaking that broad-scale clearing. SEPP 46 contains 12 exemptions which allow land-holders to continue
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with sensible and sustainable farm management practices. The exemptions are for operations such as: lopping of vegetation for stock feed in periods of drought, clearing to remove noxious weeds, clearing for the construction of fences and sheds, and clearing for public utilities and emergency work. This means that most farmers can get on with managing their land responsibly. The exemptions provide a fair range of scope for ongoing activities.

All applications lodged with the department under the SEPP are required to be dealt with within 60 days to ensure that we do not get any bottlenecks or backlogs. The first application for clearing under the policy has been granted to a land-holder on the Northern Tablelands, which is proof that it does work. This approval will allow the land-holder to clear 140 hectares, which is a sizeable amount of land, and he has 430 hectares of native vegetation on his property. This proves that the approval processes for clearing under the SEPP allow for reasonable and responsible clearing. As I said, 140 hectares is not an insignificant amount of land. State environmental planning policy 46 is an interim measure and it is in the first phase of a four-phased approach by the Government to improve protection and management of native vegetation. A public consultation and monitoring phase has been initiated and will run concurrently with the SEPP in the first 12 to 18 months. During that time its performance will be reviewed, leading to possible modification of the SEPP or, perhaps, specific native vegetation legislation. That will be phase three.

The final phase of the strategy involves a reduction in regulations and integration of vegetation management within the broader cooperative total catchment management program. That comes back to the point I was making earlier, that the Government clearly wants to work very much in partnership with the community, and the vehicle for doing that is through the TCM process. The community consultation process on the SEPP is under way. Information sessions have been provided to a number of groups such as the north west catchment management executive, Liverpool Plains Land Management Committee, rice farmers at Hay, the Cattlemen's Union, graziers at Niangala and farmers at Cooma. In all, the Department of Land and Water Conservation has held 40 public forums and workshops throughout New South Wales to explain the SEPP and to also get feedback and input from people down on the ground.

The New South Wales vegetation forum is acting as the focus for the consultation process and it has already met on a number of occasions. It includes representatives from the Department of Land and Water Conservation, the National Parks and Wildlife Service, State Forests, the Department of Planning, the Environment Protection Authority, New South Wales Agriculture, Greening Australia, the Local Government and Shires Association, the New South Wales Farmers Association, the Nature Conservation Council and the Total Environment Centre. As well as these consultation mechanisms, and to ensure that there is a whole-of-government approach, working groups have been set up in the eight Department of Land and Water Conservation regions.

These working groups include officers from the Department of Land and Water Conservation, New South Wales Agriculture and the National Parks and Wildlife Service. They will ensure that the SEPP is implemented consistently and that applications are processed as quickly as possible. Integral to the success of SEPP 46 and the objectives of fostering a better community understanding and appreciation of the value of native vegetation and its role in environmental quality, is the need to ensure that there is adequate resourcing. This will involve staff in addressing land-holder inquiries and assisting in preparation of applications and vegetation management plans. There has been a lot of activity in that area since the SEPP's introduction as people have contacted the department to get further information so that they know what they have to do.

There is also investigating and reporting on alleged breaches and developing strategies to assist with the move from regulation to integration of vegetation management into the total catchment management structure. In order to achieve these objectives the Department of Land and Water Conservation will allocate $1.26 million, which will be used to employ specialist vegetation management offices in key areas of the State. Those areas include Grafton, Dubbo, Armidale, Hay, Moree, Queanbeyan, Wagga Wagga, Bathurst and the Hunter Valley. As indicated in the phased approach that I have already mentioned, the Government's ultimate objective is to reduce regulation and achieve improved native vegetation management through cooperative processes of total catchment management. Through that vegetation management, plans will be implemented on a property and a regional catchment basis and become an integral component of the land-holder's normal farm management practices.

That is really what the Government is about, firstly setting a broad framework for vegetation, and indeed other environmental management issues, as the top of the structure or the first phase, and underneath that the framework provides clear guidelines for other organisations and individuals to work effectively within that broader framework, through farm management plans, regional plans and the like. I believe this approach is exemplified through the vegetation management strategy contained in the Murray River regional environmental plan, which was formulated in a cooperative manner between the Government and the community, and the fact that this area has been excluded from State environmental planning policy 46. The key to achieving this objective is to ensure the successful implementation of the Government's four-phased strategy, and the resourcing of the SEPP, as I have indicated, is a clear indication that the Government's commitment is very strong in terms of this process.

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The Hon. JANELLE SAFFIN: My question relates to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 500, subprogram 51.1.2, Integrated and Strategic Natural Resources Policy. An amount of $4.4 million has been allocated for policy analysis and development. Will the Minister explain how this money will be spent?

Mr YEADON: On its election, the Government moved quickly to amalgamate the responsibilities of a number of different agencies that previously had a whole range of overlapping responsibilities for natural resource management and it created the Department of Land and Water Conservation. For the first time in New South Wales one department now has responsibility for entire catchments. Land and water will be administered together just as they logically occur in nature, which of course is together. This is critically important for policy development and it is going to ensure that there is less duplication of effort and confusion amongst natural resource users and within the wider community. As part of the merger the Government believed a high level policy office was needed to ensure coordinated policy development of the highest quality. This is in line with the Government's commitment to improve the management of our natural resources and to work in partnership with the community to repair our degraded lands and waterways.

Accordingly, the Government created the Office of Natural Resources Policy to amalgamate the strategic policy functions of the previous individual departments - the Department of Water Resources, the Department of Conservation and Land Management, the Office of Water and the Office of Forestry, and the water services policy division of the Public Works Department. The Government has required the department to deliver a number of key policy initiatives. They include a forest reform protection package, native vegetation protection, and management of water policy reforms. I am sure all honourable members will be familiar with those.

The Hon. I. COHEN: I refer the Minister to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 503, program 51.1, Integrated Natural Resources Policy. My question relates to subprogram 51.1.3, Forest Policy, and in particular to the line item that refers to State Forests hardwood plantations and the Government's contribution of $8,500,000, and the line item that refers to the Government's contribution to State Forests of New South Wales totalling $14,557,000. For what specific purposes or projects have those funds been provided? What outcome measures will be applied to determine the effectiveness of these grants and subsidies? How much of community service payments are spent on any form of recreational facilities? Is the Minister satisfied that there is no cross-subsidy between different operations of State Forests, and in particular its pine plantations and native forest hardwood operations?

Mr YEADON: State Forests is a government trading enterprise and its performance is judged on its ability to maximise its commercial result. To ensure that commercial performance is accurately assessed and clearly distinguished from the cost of community service obligations undertaken on behalf of the Government, these non-commercial activities are separately funded. They appear in the budget as grants to State Forests of New South Wales and the estimate for 1994-95 is $14.557 million. The Government places a high priority on the establishment of hardwood plantations as part of its overall forestry reform agenda. It has provided for an increase in expenditure on this item of $8.5 million and this is shown as a separate item under the line item referring to grants and subsidies. Accordingly, the provisions of grants to State Forests of New South Wales to cover community service obligations is correspondingly reduced by $5 million in 1995-96.

The non-commercial activities to be funded by way of grant and carried out by State Forests as part of its overall operation and priorities are established under the forest policies program. The multiple use of State forests, particularly for recreational activities, has long been recognised and now assumes increasing importance with the growing interest in ecotourism, and the Government is certainly committed to developing ecotourism. Access to State forests for tourism and recreation also relieves pressure on national parks and other conservation reserves. The question often arises in respect of national parks that if there is too much pressure from visitation it will eventually begin to have an adverse effect on the environmental values of those parks. For the benefit of individuals, families and communities - and with a minor exception, little commercial return is obtained from State forest recreational activities - facilities such as picnic areas, camping sites, walking trails, roads, et cetera, need to be maintained. I might give more detail on that to the Committee when forestry questions are raised in general.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: My question relates to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 506 and the line referring to the capital program, also Budget Paper No. 2, page 5-58. Why are irrigators contributing only 25 per cent of the $68.8 million for the Pindari Dam enlargement by way of additional water charges over a period of 17 years? As the dam is specifically designed to benefit irrigators, why are irrigators not paying for the cost of the dam enlargement? Is it not a fact that in the Council of Australian Governments agreement, as published on page 24 of the report of the working group on water resource policy of COAG, it is stated that full costs recovery should be achieved for rural water pricing by 2001?

Mr YEADON: The department has enlarged Pindari Dam to improve security of water supply for New South Wales irrigators along the Murray-Macintyre-Barwon river system. The new spillway has addressed a shortfall in the flood discharge
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capacity of the dam. The storage capacity has been increased to 312,000 megalitres from 37,500 megalitres. Reliability of supply to downstream water users will increase to about 70 per cent, and it is estimated that the value of cotton exports could increase by $39 million per annum. There was a joint venture with the Government, and irrigators will pay $37.5 million towards the cost of the dam at a rate of $8 per megalitre, indexed at 5 per cent per annum for all water taken in addition to normal water charges. Payment will continue until the $37.5 million is reached. The additional water will be allocated to existing licence holders by way of increased reliability.

A major contract for construction work by joint venturers Baulderstone Hornibrook and Roche Brothers was completed on 30 April 1995. The enlarged dam was opened by the Premier on 14 September 1995, and I had the opportunity to travel to that opening with the Premier. Remaining construction works are programmed for completion in 1995. Tasks under the environmental management plan will continue until the year 2000. The estimated cost of the project has been reduced from $75 million to $68.8 million, including $54 million for contract work. Construction is proceeding ahead of schedule. Some $61.5 million has been spent on the project up to September 1995. The hydro company partnership holds a commercially based option to develop a small hydropower plant at the dam, and it is expected that a final decision will be made in 1995 in this regard.

Honourable members will know that this project was initiated under the previous Government, so that any questions in relation to the allocation or in respect of the division of funding in relation to the project rests back then rather than now that it is set in place. In relation to the Council of Australian Governments, I indicate that the Government is moving to full cost recovery in relation to rural water pricing, as the Government announced in its water reform policies released a number of weeks ago, and a reference is being made to the Government Pricing Tribunal in order to progress that matter.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: I ask a supplementary question. As taxpayers are subsidising irrigators to the tune of over $30 million, why is your Government not attempting to recover that cost through increased charges, rather than going along with the deal made by the previous Government?

Mr YEADON: The agenda for Pindari has been set in place. We are moving to cost recovery generally in respect of rural water prices. Those arrangements are basically already in place, and were in place before this Government came to power.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: I ask a further supplementary question. Will you guarantee that no deals like this will be made again whereby taxpayers have to subsidise irrigators?

Mr YEADON: I will not give that guarantee. One thing we can look forward to is the Government Pricing Tribunal coming back with a response that will deal with a whole range of issues, if not a full and comprehensive review of rural bulk water pricing. We will see what the Government Pricing Tribunal has to say about these types of matters and ventures. The Government undoubtedly will, in the future, formulate a policy on the matters that the honourable member raised relating to Pindari following the Government Pricing Tribunal's report on its investigation.

The Hon. I. COHEN: The following questions refer to program 51.3, Integrated Catchment Management Services, page 513. The Department of Land and Water Conservation budget provides $632,000 for estuary management of Lake Illawarra as part of its capital program. It is in Budget Paper No. 4, State Capital Program, page 49. Have any funds, capital or otherwise, been allocated for the establishment of a water quality and habitat monitoring program for the lake? Have any funds, capital or otherwise, been allocated for the preparation of a restoration management plan for the lake? When will such a plan be produced? Have any government funds, capital or otherwise, been allocated for use by the Lake Illawarra Authority? What funds have been budgeted for allocation to the Illawarra Catchment Management Committee when it is transferred from the Environment Protection Authority? What funds have been allocated for enhancing the integration of the catchment management committee and the authority? Is the existence of two bodies for one catchment justified on a cost basis? If the Lake Illawarra Authority goes ahead with its proposal to mine sand in sensitive sea grass and fish habitat in the lake, will the funds provided by the department be reduced, and by how much?

Mr YEADON: That is a lengthy question. I do not like to disappoint the honourable member, but it is my understanding that references to Budget Paper No. 4 capital funding are outside the terms of the Committee's deliberations.

CHAIR: The question should relate to Budget Paper No. 3. The honourable member has sought further information. The Minister may choose to take the question on notice.

Mr YEADON: I will answer the question if the honourable member can provide a reference for it in Budget Paper No. 3.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: While my colleague is reconsidering his question, I would like to refer the Minister to the $35 million forestry industry restructure package. Minister, you referred a moment ago to the Commonwealth contribution to this matter. Can you confirm that the Commonwealth contribution will be on a dollar-for-dollar basis? When will that contribution be forthcoming?

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Mr YEADON: No, I cannot confirm that because discussions are taking place with the Federal Government in relation to what funding may be available. Those discussions have not concluded.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: Could you guess as to whether it would be on a dollar-for-dollar basis?

Mr YEADON: If I had my way, the contribution would be above and beyond dollar-for-dollar funding; it would be $2 for $1, or even more. But, what I want and what I get probably will be two different things. This Government is placing much emphasis on what is occurring in this State in relation to conservation measures under our policy and the restructuring of the timber industry. The Government's forest policy has always been on the approach that the two issues of conservation and forest restructure package are of equal importance. The Government is advancing them on that basis. It is arguing vigorously with the Federal Government that New South Wales is providing the greatest impetus for advancing conservation measures and, as a result of that, industry restructuring also. The Government believes that should be recognised by the Federal Government and that money should be made available.

I know that the Federal Government is developing a national timber industry development strategy. Such an initiative is certainly not exclusive to New South Wales. It is my understanding that the Federal Government will make available funding for that strategy. Through vehicles such as that, because New South Wales has been at the forefront of implementation of the national forest policy statement and the general advancement of conservation and forestry matters, this State should be recognised as a worthy recipient of funding. It should be entitled, as a minimum, to dollar-for-dollar funding to a matching of the $60 million that has been made available by this Government for industry restructuring over the next five years.

The legislation that went through this Parliament last week to give access to environmental trusts, which is where the $60 million is being accessed from, puts this Government in a much stronger position to approach the Federal Government. Prior to the passing of that legislation the Government was simply asking the Federal Government for assistance and for dollar-for-dollar funding when we did not even have an assurance of available State funding if the Government had run into trouble in having the bill passed through the upper House. Now that that bill has been passed by the upper House, there are no real barriers standing in the way of the State Government moving to advance its forestry and timber policy. We are putting it on that basis to the Federal Government. I remain ever hopeful that we will get from the Federal Government an amount of money that, as a minimum, will be on a dollar-for-dollar basis.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: I ask a supplementary question. Minister, would you seek assurance from the Prime Minister that the money will be in our bank account before the next Federal election?

Mr YEADON: I certainly will be emphasising that point. If things move in an appropriate way, these issues will be resolved in one way or another over the next month or so. I anticipate that that may be somewhat before a Federal election takes place, but I will be putting emphasis on getting the money before the Federal election - not that I think the Prime Minister will not be there after the next election, but to ensure that New South Wales gets the money as soon as it can.

The Hon. I. COHEN: Mr Chairman, I will defer asking my question.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: I ask a question in relation to the capital program in Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 503. I refer also to Budget Paper No. 4, pages 86 and 87 as a further reference, State Forests, major works. With regard to the item "road maintenance southern region, Eden", given that most compartments in the Eden district have already met their current logging quotas, why is it necessary to spend $910,000 maintaining the roads? Is it standard practice to charge the cost of the roading for each compartment against the royalty received from that compartment? If not, why not?

Mr YEADON: I understand that this segment of the Committee's deliberations is to deal with land and water issues and that time is set aside later in these proceedings for forestry matters. I wonder whether we could confine questions at this stage to land and water issues.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 503, capital program, with reference to the Murray-Darling Basin nutrient reduction environment program, which is also to be found on page 50 of Budget Paper No. 4, with an expenditure of $8 million this year. Could the Minister explain how that money will be spent and how it will bring about a reduction in the nutrient load in the Murray-Darling?

Mr YEADON: Could I ask for the reference again?

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: I am sorry, it is page 506.

[Time expired.]

The Hon. M. R. KERSTEN: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 496, operating statement, for the line item employee related expenses. The department either has or is about to issue T-shirts to its employees. Can the Minister provide the cost of this exercise to the taxpayer and advise whether staff have been requested not to use these T-shirts for washing cars?

Mr YEADON: I will ask Mr Millington to respond to that question.

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Mr MILLINGTON: In creating the new department, we were very keen to try to establish an identity and morale to overcome as quickly as we could the difficulties with bringing together three or four different groups into the one organisation. It is relatively common to attempt to do that in a fairly simple and meaningful way, one of which is by creating cheap T-shirts at a cost of about $5 each. The aim of this exercise was to make a tangible start to the new department, but in a cost-effective and cheap way. The basic T-shirts that were given out cost about $5 or $6 each.

The Hon. M. R. KERSTEN: Mr Chairman, I ask a supplementary question. I have asked the Minister whether or not staff have been requested not to use these T-shirts for washing cars. I refer specifically to the department's publication the "Telegraph Merger", information update No. 7, the section on T-shirts.

Mr MILLINGTON: That was a little bit of humour in the "Telegraph Merger". The T-shirts are clearly there to engender team work, team spirit. I think it was making clear in a humorous way that they were certainly not there to wash cars.

The Hon. M. R. KERSTEN: I have a supplementary question, Mr Chairman.

CHAIR: It will have to refer more specifically to the line item. We are not here to discuss the image of the department; we are here to discuss the budget. You will have to relate your question to the budget more narrowly.

The Hon. M. R. KERSTEN: Mr Chairman, I would have thought that the question was related to the budget. I am interested to know whether the employees can strip the shirt off, throw it into the suds and clean the grasshoppers off the front of the car.

CHAIR: With due respect to the Hon. M. R. Kersten, that is not relevant to the budget.

The Hon. JENNIFER GARDINER: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 513 relating to soil conservation grants. I note that the grants have been reduced from $11.2 million in 1994-95 to $7.5 million in 1995-96. Given the significance of soil conservation and the Government's statements about the importance of good soil conservation management, how can you possibly justify a 33 per cent reduction in these grants?

Mr YEADON: Firstly, I think I should indicate that the description of the line item is rather poorly put together. The line item does not refer to the Soil Conservation Service but to miscellaneous grants. The soil conservation program is covered at page 519 of the budget paper - soil and vegetation services. The budget allocation for 1994-95 was $9.714 million and that is broken up with $2.811 million for the national Landcare program, $1.973 million for salt action, $3.83 million for total catchment management and $1.1 million for the Landcare environmental action program, LEAP, and Great Artesian Basin activity. Actual expenditure for 1994-95 was $11.271 million, as I said. The variance between estimated and actual expenditure for 1994-95 related to in-year supplementation of $2 million for the farm forestry program and $973,000 for the drought relief program. The strategic planning component of $83,000 for the TCM was moved to operating expenses, leaving the TCM budget of $3 million for grants. There was also budget underexpenditure on some activities. The budget allocation for 1995-96 is $7.581 million and that is broken up into $2.667 million for the national Landcare program, $1.944 million for salt action and $3 million for TCM enhancement community grants.

The reduced estimate in this year's budget results from reclassification of $1 million for the LEAP and the Great Artesian Basin program into the operating and other services area of the catchment management and community services program rather than grants. This year's in-year supplementation of $2.973 million for drought relief and farm forestry is also not included in this activity of the 1995-96 budget allocation. The TCM program has received enhancement to the extent of $5 million for 1995-96 and $3 million of the budget is for community grants. The Government is putting a lot of emphasis on getting as much grant money as possible down on the ground so that projects can be undertaken. That issue has been raised with us since coming to government: people want to see as much money as possible going down on the ground. The Government is trying to ensure that that occurs. The remaining $2 million is included within other operating expenses. This $2 million comprises $700,000 to pay sitting fees for community catchment management committee members, $400,000 for ongoing strategic natural resource management planning and $900,000 for operating costs and coordination of the catchment management programs. So in fact there has been no real reduction in that area.

The Hon. M. R. KERSTEN: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, pages 514 and 516. Blue-green algae and river care management are key issues for water quality in our river systems. Your budget shows a reduction in funding for these projects from $5.8 million to $3.1 million in western rivers and from $1.9 million to $1 million for coastal rivers. How can you possibly justify decreased funding in this budget when the community expectation is that you should be spending more on trying to solve the blue-green algae problems across the State?

Mr YEADON: The Government announced a major policy initiative some weeks ago on water reform and of course the initiatives taken in that policy will go directly to addressing blue-green algal problems. The service that you have referred to is spread across two programs - catchment management and community services, which has $3.14 million; and coastal and riverine, which has
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$1.029 million. As part of the Government's deficit reduction strategy Treasury has allocated $4.169 million, which is less than what the department would like to expend in these areas. The department will re-allocate funding internally to provide at least the 1994-95 level of $7.7 million for this key catchment management service. This will include $4.2 million for blue-green algae and $3 million for riverine works and $500,000 for RiverCare 2000.

The algal management strategy under this program aims to minimise the occurrence and impacts of blue-green algal blooms. The strategy is grouped into five key areas - contingency planning, water systems management, nutrient control, education and awareness raising, and research. Contingency planning is already operating successfully, as evidenced by the river watch program along the Darling and Barwon rivers. In addition, the State Government has allocated $124,000 in 1995-96 for the construction of stock and domestic bores to provide alternative water supplies to landholders affected by blue-green algae - primarily along the Darling-Barwon. Funds are matched by landholders. A prototype algal watch kit developed in 1994 to improve local community monitoring is currently being tested before being made available for general distribution. Algal bloom management is being imposed by water system management, including the Government's allocation of $624,000 in 1995-96 for metering equipment on the Darling and Barwon rivers to monitor flow plan operation and studies to improve environmental flows in our river systems.

The Government has allocated $3.3 million in 1995-96 for nutrient control, planning and works. This is the third year of a five-year program with funds augmented by the Commonwealth, local government and individual landholders. Catchment nutrient models have been developed for the Murrumbidgee, Hawkesbury-Nepean, Hunter, Namoi and Gwydir valleys. Models for the Lachlan and Macquarie are well advanced, while those for the remaining catchments are either in progress or planned for 1995. Other actions for nutrient control include the local government phosphorous awareness and reduction campaign, which to date is being run by 44 individual councils; an industry agreement limit on detergent phosphorous of 5 per cent; use of informative labelling on packaging; and improved community awareness. The Department of Land and Water Conservation, Sydney Water and Hunter Water Corporation are accelerating studies and works to improve nutrient removal from sewage treatment plants. Education and extensive programs on the use of fertilisers and on soil erosion are being reviewed by my department and also by New South Wales Agriculture to highlight the blue-green algal impacts. Studies of tradeable property rights in nutrients have been completed and they are being discussed with the broader community. So the Government is maintaining a very solid commitment indeed to blue-green algal management.

The Hon. JENNIFER GARDINER: I refer to page 520 of Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2. The Consolidated Fund recurrent appropriation for soil and vegetation services has gone down from $12.9 million to $9.6 million in these estimates and includes a staff cut. Can you explain why the Government is not increasing its funding in this important area rather than reducing it? Noting that State environmental planning policy 46 is justified by the Government on the basis of reducing the impact of clearing native vegetation on soil erosion and other considerations, given the extra costs of implementing SEPP 46 on the rural community, how do you explain the Government's lack of commitment to funding soil and vegetation services to a greater extent than in the past?

Mr YEADON: The variation between estimated and actual expenditure in 1994-95 reflects two things. First, it should be remembered that soil and vegetation services did not appear as a specific program in 1994-95. Its activities, along with those now performed by the catchment management and community services program, were undertaken in the Soil Conservation Service. The roles and functional responsibilities of these two new programs were still being developed at the time the budget papers were prepared and as such the figures provided are indicative only of what was considered to be a soil and vegetation service responsibility at that time. Secondly, the impact of approved supplementations to some of the former agencies now comprising DLWC needs to be considered. Expenditure against these approved supplementations is included in actual expenditure against the agency to which it related. However, with the redefining of program areas and programs within the new Department of Land and Water Conservation, the 1994-95 budget figure reflects a pro rata distribution of the total budget for the former agencies on the basis of actual expenditure levels, including supplementation expenditure. Explanation of the reduced allocation of $2.682 million in 1995-96 is also twofold.

The first reason has been alluded to previously. That is that as the roles and functional responsibilities of the new soil and vegetation services and catchment management and community services program, which was previously the Soil Conservation Service, become further refined and developed, a redistribution of funding may be required in that area. This will be done under my ministerial discretion. Secondly, the budget of $2.682 million does not include any of the operating costs associated with implementation of SEPP 46, which deals with the protection and management of native vegetation. The funding for this initiative, total estimate for 1995-96 including salaries and other operating expenses, is $1.26 million and it will be achieved through savings in other program areas of the department. SEPP 46 passed after the budget had been finalised so the figure will be adjusted by that $1.26 million.

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The Hon. M. R. KERSTEN: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 503, forestry policy. I refer to provision in the coming year of $35 million for the forest industry restructure package. This package is predicated on the assumption that New South Wales forests have been harvested on an unsustainable yield basis and that a 30 per cent reduction in log quota is necessary from 1 July 1996.

CHAIR: What is the line item again?

The Hon. M. R. KERSTEN: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, volume 2, page 503, line item forest industry restructure package, $35 million. Will you table the advice on which the Government is basing its forestry restructure, particularly the advice which indicated unsustainable yield?

Mr YEADON: No. I am sure that Ministers of the previous Government will indicate to you what the situation was because they were told by State Forests that unsustainable logging was occurring. It was in the vicinity of 30 per cent of sustainable yield. The Labor Party had a comprehensive and refined forest policy when it came to government, which it took to the 25 March election. We commenced work on that policy immediately on coming to government simply because we wanted to get moving with it and get it in place. A lot of work is involved in the implementation of that policy because it is so comprehensive. It will deal with the issues in our forests once and for all. For the last 10 years this has been an emotive and divisive issue in State and national politics.

This Government got to work on that policy immediately. It was of major concern to us on coming to government to discover that the previous Government had been derelict in its duties in relation to the preservation of native forests, particularly high conservation value native forests. It was derelict to the point that we found there was an overcutting of around 30 per cent. That has made this Government's task in relation to the implementation of its policies far more difficult. When we were formulating that policy we did not have access to the sort of information we were provided with by State Forests on coming to government. We were unaware of the fact that sustainable logging was 30 per cent out of kilter. That put a considerable amount of pressure on the implementation of our policies.

The Government wants to implement its policy in cooperation with and in consultation with the industry. It was clear that there was always going to be a restructuring of the forestry industry - before and after the election the industry recognised that a restructuring was inevitable. At the rate that old-growth forests were being cut down in this State they would have run out within the next seven to 10 years. Once that occurred the forestry industry would have had to reinvest in plant and equipment in order to cut regrowth forests. We are simply taking them into that area sooner because we are running out of forests. In short, it is all the coalition's fault.

[Time expired.]

[Short adjournment]

The Hon. JANELLE SAFFIN: I refer you to the annual report of State Forests for 1993-94. I note the reference to hardwood plantation on page 21. What measure has the Government taken to promote the establishment of hardwood plantation to provide an alternative timber resource which will reduce the pressure on native forests?

Mr YEADON: The expansion of hardwood plantation is a major component of the Government's forest policy. The policy includes a commitment to increase State Forests' hardwood plantation program to an estimated rate of 10,000 hectares per year by 1997-98. For the year ending 30 June 1995, 1,747 hectares of hardwood plantation had been established in both joint ventures and on State Forest land at a cost of $6 million, compared with 274 hectares in the previous year. That is a significant increase indeed. Total hardwood production across the State now amounts to 20,000 hectares. The aim of the plantation program for 1995-96 is to plant 3,000 hectares of hardwood plantation, predominantly by way of joint ventures between State Forests and individual landowners.

The Government has allocated $8.5 million to this task, which will be supplemented by funding of $1 million from State Forests. The majority of the $9.5 million will be used for establishing a new hardwood plantation: preparing the land, growing seedlings, planting, fertilising, weed control and other silvicultural operations. A proportion of the funding will be used for other important functions, such as research, providing public information and nursery upgrading. Thirty joint venture agreements have already been signed for 1995-96. That involves 1,382 hectares of land. It is intended that the hardwood plantation establishment rate will be increased to 5,000 hectares in 1996-97, and possibly to 10,000 in 1997-98. Although the plantation program has generated significant interest, particularly in the northern part of the State, some potential plantation joint venture partners have raised concerns in relation to harvest security which may deter participants from entering into the program. In order to address these concerns the Government will introduce plantation harvest guarantee legislation in the very near future.

This legislation will address key disincentives which inhibit the establishment of plantations with environmentally sound bona fides. If the bill is endorsed by the Parliament, it will provide that the harvesting of suitably accredited plantations will be exempt from various planning and environmental assessment requirements, primarily under the Environmental Planning and Assessment Act and the National Parks and Wildlife Act. This exemption will provide land-holders and potential investors with a guarantee that they will be able to harvest those plantations when they become mature, provided that they adhere to the plantation
Page 2624
harvesting code which will be part of the overall regime the Government has in place regarding private forestry matters.

The Hon. J. KALDIS: State Forests' objectives, as identified in the 1993-94 annual report, were no doubt framed to meet the former Government's policy objectives. What contribution has State Forests made to the implementation of this Government's forestry policy?

Mr YEADON: State Forests has played a key role in the implementation of the Government's forest policy. The implementation strategy for the Government's forest policy was announced on 13 June, as I said earlier. That was less than three months after the election of Labor to government. The development of this strategy required a great deal of work by a number of government agencies, particularly State Forests. The announcement required the rescheduling of State Forests' logging operations out of identified wilderness, unlogged forest and, most likely, selectively logged forests and into regrowth areas and plantations. State Forests was responsible for implementing this rescheduling, which has now been completed. The Government has also made a commitment to maintain quota quality hardwood log allocations in the three coastal regions at current levels until 30 June next year. Allocations will then be reduced by 30 per cent, and by 40 per cent in the Eden management area, for the following 12 months.

The price of quota quality hardwood sawlogs was increased by 15 per cent from 1 July 1995. State Forests is responsible for ensuring that these supply commitments are met and that the price increases are effectively implemented. One of the key planks to the Government's forest policy is the establishment and maintenance of an efficient, high technology and ecologically sustainable sawlog-driven hardwood timber industry utilising regrowth forest and plantation, as I said. A tripartite subcommittee of the Forestry Advisory Council will be responsible for advising the Government on timber industry restructuring and value adding for that industry. State Forests will also play a key role in that restructuring process.

In addition to the implementation of the major policy initiatives which I have outlined, it has been necessary to integrate the State Government's strategy with Commonwealth priorities. State Forests has played an integral part in the development of the joint State-Commonwealth draft deferred forest assessment report. That is currently the subject of stakeholder consultation, and that will continue, from memory, until 3 November. I am very pleased that the management of State Forests has made a very professional and positive contribution to the implementation of the Government's forest policy. This contribution was highlighted by the depth of knowledge and sound expertise of State Forests officers, together with the comprehensive and advanced management information systems which the organisation has developed over the past few years. The demonstrated professionalism and competence of State Forests staff gives me considerable confidence for the successful implementation of our forestry policy. The Government, of course, will continue to work on that policy with absolute 100 per cent commitment.

The Hon. E. M. OBEID: I note the significant improvement in State Forests' commercial performance as identified in the annual report of 1993-94. In 1990 the Public Accounts Committee published a scathing report on the operations of the former Forestry Commission, now known as State Forests of New South Wales. Will the Minister explain how the recommendations of the Public Accounts Committee report have been implemented and the part they played in the improved performance of State Forests?

Mr YEADON: I am glad that the honourable member has given me the opportunity to respond on this very important matter. I am pleased to report that State Forests has made considerable progress in implementing the major recommendations of the Public Accounts Committee report, which included 78 recommendations. Obviously, it is beyond the scope of my response to this question to give a full account of how each of those recommendations has been addressed. However, I can provide a brief summary of how the major issues raised in the report have been resolved. Firstly, I refer to the corporate structure. The former Forestry Commission underwent a major restructuring in April 1992 involving a decentralisation of authority and accountability, a reduction in head office staff of 30 per cent, and the separation of commercial service providers into business units. The new corporate structure has since been enhanced by the appointment of a board of governance. The full corporatisation of State Forests is one of the objectives specified in the organisation's corporate plan, and the Government is currently considering options in relation to that corporatisation.

In relation to financial performance, State Forests has installed modern financial management and reporting systems, together with sound management disciplines, such as corporate and business planning, monthly budgeting and performance reporting, cash management systems and staff performance agreements. Management expertise in generating revenue and controlling costs is recognised by the valuable and significant contribution made by State Forests to government revenue. In 1991-92, State Forests reported an operating surplus before abnormal items of $5.5 million. In the following year the figure more than doubled to $13.1 million, and this result was repeated in 1993-94 when State Forests again doubled its operating surplus to $27.6 million. In the past year, due to the increased cost of environmental compliance, profit has fallen slightly to $26.7 million. However, a dividend payable of $21.7 million is in excess of community service obligations and hardwood plantation grants, generating for the first time a net profit contribution to the State budget.

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On timber marketing, the Public Accounts Committee report included a number of recommendations relating to the marketing of timber, and State Forests has been striving to make improvements in this regard. One of the two key planks of the Government's forest policy is the establishment and maintenance of an efficient, high technology and ecologically sustainable sawlog-driven hardwood timber industry, utilising regrowth forest and plantation. State Forests timber marketing knowledge and expertise will play a key role in the restructuring of the forest industry and the development of value-adding opportunities. On corporate planning, the three issues I have discussed illustrate the way in which senior management at State Forests has succeeded in addressing the major issues raised in the Public Accounts Committee's report. However, a brief reading of State Forest's corporate plan clearly shows that the changes which have occurred in State Forests go a lot further than merely adhering to the recommendations made in that report. State Forests has undergone a major cultural transformation in recent years and that is continuing. I am confident that the changes which have occurred throughout the organisation will ensure that State Forests continues to play a vital role in the implementation of the Government's forest reform objectives.

The Hon. JANELLE SAFFIN: Minister, still on the State Forests 1993-94 annual report, one of the key performance areas identified is environmental management. What measures does State Forests have in place to ensure that the environment is adequately protected in the course of logging operations in native forests and how much do these measures cost?

Mr YEADON: The environment is one of the five key result areas in the State Forests corporate plan. State Forests is striving to demonstrate sustainability in forest management through world's best environmental practice. While this commitment to the environment is an integral part of all State Forests' operations, a number of specific programs are of special note in relation to environmental management. In 1995-96 State Forests expects to spend $5.7 million on the preparation of environmental impact statements for forestry operations. The completion of these EISs is required under the Timber Industry (Interim Protection) Amendment Act. State Forests is making a significant effort to complete the majority of the EISs by the end of 1995 as they will provide a great deal of information which will be useful for the interim assessment process currently undertaken by the Resource and Conservation Assessment Council. The comprehensive regional assessment process is involved there and will be undertaken jointly by New South Wales and the Commonwealth.

Statewide monitoring programs are now being put in place to measure the performance of the various prescriptions and conditions which have resulted from the EIS process. Monitoring will also be undertaken in association with the Environment Protection Authority to assess the effectiveness of the prescriptions, which have been developed as part of the water pollution licensing process for forestry operations. State Forests is also currently endeavouring to integrate all components of the complex environmental approval system for forestry operations into a single, comprehensive, environmental management system to provide an improved level of certainty in relation to its compliance. The EMS will address all relevant issues including auditing, monitoring, reporting, training and certification of Australian or international standards. The total environmental expenditure is estimated at over $15 million per annum.

The Hon. I. COHEN: Minister, my question relates to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 503, regarding the joint venture eucalypt plantation program. What has been the income and expenditure that State Forests has derived from the joint venture eucalypt plantation program including all associated costs and personal time? How many hectares of plantations and what types have been established under the joint venture eucalypt plantation program? How many hectares of joint venture eucalypt plantation and what types have been established on Crown land, that is State forest, as part of the joint venture eucalypt plantation program? How much has been expended on environmental assessment, site preparation and planting on Crown lands?

Mr YEADON: The honourable member has asked for specific details. I suggest he reiterate the questions one by one and we can respond to them. Alternatively, we can take the questions on notice and provide the detailed information.

CHAIR: What is your view? Do you want to answer them one by one, or put them on notice?

The Hon. I. COHEN: I will put them on notice.

CHAIR: Is that acceptable, Minister?

Mr YEADON: Yes.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: Minister, I refer to page 66 of the State Forests annual report, 30 June 1994. Could the Minister provide a breakdown of State Forests' estimated royalty income for 1995-96 in the following categories: estimated royalty based on expended yield for each compartment; estimated royalty per cubic metre for each species; estimated royalty generated by operations on Aboriginal land; estimated royalty generated by operations in areas of high conservation value; and estimated royalty generated by operations in areas containing schedule 12 endangered fauna? What form of econometric modelling is used to determine the level of royalties? Do these models have substantial regard for price sensitivities?

CHAIR: I assume that is another question on notice.

Page 2626

Mr YEADON: I will refer that question to Dr Hans Drielsma.

Dr DRIELSMA: The first part of that question related to the estimated royalty based on expected yield for each compartment. State Forests does not budget for royalty on a compartment-by-compartment basis. Our budgets are put together by responsibility centres, by activity, by resources and by products. That is the appropriate way for us to budget and to assess financial performance. On a product basis, our budgeted royalty for 1995-96 comes out in the following way: from our hardwood native forests we are budgeting for a revenue of $49.1 million; from our softwood plantations we are budgeting for a revenue of $54.1 million; from our cypress pine forests we are budgeting for a revenue of $4 million; and from our hardwood plantations we are budgeting for a revenue of $1.7 million; giving a total revenue of $108.9 million.

In relation to the estimated royalty or stumpage per cubic metre per species, we do not budget on a species basis, but I can give an indication of the average prices that apply to those categories that have been mentioned. In regard to hardwood native forests, quota sawlogs would average of the order of $37 per cubic metre. However, higher value products such as poles, piles and girders would average of the order of $80 per cubic metre, while veneer logs would be in the range of $56 to $60. Pulpwood from native forests would be of the order of $16. From our softwood plantations, sawlogs would average $40 per cubic metre while the pulpwood from softwood plantations would be of the order of $14. From the cypress pine forests, sawlogs average $34 and from the hardwood plantations - because they are much younger, or less mature at this stage, the sawlogs are much smaller - and they average $14 to $16, with pulpwood coming from the plantations at about $7.

The next part of the question dealt with the estimated revenues generated by operations on Aboriginal lands. It is not clear what is defined as Aboriginal lands. In terms of any lands that are formally identified in some way as Aboriginal lands in New South Wales, there are no operations being undertaken. We are aware that Aboriginal people have interests in various parts of the forest estate and we consult quite extensively with Aboriginal people, both within the process of doing environmental impact assessments and more generally. Recently we appointed an Aboriginal liaison officer in the northern region of the State and we are undertaking seminars and workshops through that mechanism and directly with the Aboriginal people to ensure that their interests are understood, identified and can be incorporated into forest management. We are looking at ways also of extending that initiative into other parts of the State. In terms of the estimated revenues generated by operations in high conservation value forests, it clearly comes down to a definition of what constitutes high conservation value forests. In the implementation of the Government's forest policy, we have gone through a structured process of identifying all the forests that would potentially be considered of high conservation value.

As the Minister explained, we have gone through a process of rescheduling to take operations outside those areas. That process was completed at the end of September. We are now operating in areas through that process that are considered to be not of high conservation value. To give an idea of how that has been done, all areas considered potentially old-growth were identified through a mapping process. All unlogged forests and all forests that had been lightly, selectively logged had been mapped out and operations taken out of those areas. State Forests also entered into an agreed protocol with the National Parks and Wildlife Service which means that even within regrowth forests there is a mechanism whereby significant areas of potential old-growth are identified, mapped and excluded from harvesting operations. All areas that have been identified as wilderness have been taken out of the process and there are no logging operations in any areas of identified wilderness at the moment. There are 24 national parks that the Government has identified for potential dedication over the next 12 months. All our logging schedules are outside any proposed boundaries for those national parks. While investigations are continuing, no logging operations are occurring within those areas.

The final element is to do with biodiversity in regard to endangered species and areas of forest that may be required for a comprehensive, adequate and representative reserve system. State Forests has been through a structured process in consultation with the National Parks and Wildlife Service and as part of the Commonwealth deferred forest assessment process, so that those areas that are potentially required for a future comprehensive, adequate and representative reserve system have been identified and taken out of the system. Of course, there is also a process of licensing with the National Parks and Wildlife Service such that any areas that carry threatened species are also conditioned so that harvesting will have no long-term adverse impact. On that basis we feel confident that in a logical way logging is not currently operating in areas of high conservation value. The next part of the question was about revenues generated by operations in areas containing schedule 12 endangered fauna, and, to a large extent, I have already answered that. There is a process whereby areas of greater sensitivity are identified and licences are obtained from the National Parks and Wildlife Service. Through that process we endeavour to ensure that there are no operations that would impact adversely in the long-term on those species.

The final part of the question had to do with econometric modelling used to determine a level of royalties, whether or not they have substantial regard to price sensitivities. Sawlog prices are adjusted periodically, usually annually in New South
Page 2627
Wales, and are based on an analysis of a number of factors. First is the changes in the prices of end products from such logs, including panelling, flooring, large-section durable timbers, construction-grade timbers, fencing, and pallets. Such prices are obtained from market surveys and we have market analysts who keep in touch with the end product or end uses of timber to ensure that we are aware of movements in those prices. Secondly, we also look at the price of competitive logs elsewhere, including other areas of New South Wales and interstate. Thirdly, we look at the changes in the cost of forest management and log production as they affect our operations.

Finally, we make it our business to look at changes in the cost of logging, log haul, log processing and distribution of end products by industry; therefore our customers. We get a good handle on their cost structures. Those four factors are all included in our assessment of what prices ought to prevail. This market-based information is analysed with the assistance of computer models and we also take into account recovery from log to sawn timber. We then enter discussions with our customers regarding such analysis and the market value of logs. The Committee would be aware that the Government is proposing to refer the question of log pricing to the Government Pricing Tribunal. The report arising from that analysis will give an indication as to how we could improve our system, our objective being to ensure that the prices of logs reflect the true value of those logs in the marketplace.

The Hon. I. COHEN: My question relates to page 66 of State Forests' annual report to 30 June 1994, income and expenditure statements. What products and services have been provided by State Forests to Harris Daishowa in the years 1993-94 and 1994-95, and what is the expected income for the year 1995-96? What are the costs to State Forests in providing such products and services? What criteria are used to assess the amount that Harris Daishowa is charged for the provision of such products and services? In the assessment of State Forests charges, is any consideration given to the product profitability of the Harris Daishowa woodchip operation?

Mr YEADON: I shall refer that question to Dr Drielsma.

Dr DRIELSMA: To Harris Daishowa we make sales of pulpwood in the order of 600,000 tonnes per annum, from which we generate direct revenue from Harris Daishowa of about $11 million or $12 million. That is the extent of the products and services that we provide to Harris Daishowa. Our wood supply agreement with Harris Daishowa, which is in place to the year 2009, provides for the supply of product at around that level. The level varies with different sources of supply. For instance, from the Eden management area it provides for about 503,000 tonnes, with lesser amounts coming from adjoining management areas. As part of that contract there are agreements about the nature of the roading that we will provide versus the roading to be provided by Harris Daishowa. There are major roads such as Eden Road and Imlay Road that we maintain, as well as a roads network through the forest. We undertake harvest planning and supervision. Essentially, that is the contracted services or the expenditure in regard to the logging. The building of minor roads and haulage are undertaken by Harris Daishowa and paid for by that organisation.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: I refer the Minister to page 66 of the annual report of State Forests. Will you be renegotiating the Boral contract to ensure that the company pays full market price for its logs?

[Time expired.]

The Hon. JENNIFER GARDINER: I intend to go back to land and water conservation questions. I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, at page 505, subprogram 51.2.1, Country Town Water, Sewerage and Drainage, and specifically to the line item average staffing. Could the Minister tell the Committee whether any of the staff positions transferred by the Government from the Public Works Department across to the Department of Land and Water Conservation have been transferred back to the Department of Public Works and Services? If not, are there plans to transfer staff back to the Department of Public Works and Services, and does the 84 EFT figure under this line item remain current?

Mr YEADON: On a point of order: my understanding is that at this stage of the proceedings the Committee is confining itself to State Forests issues. Is that correct?

The Hon. JENNIFER GARDINER: On the point of order: I would point out that the second question asked by the Committee, coming from the Government, was from the Hon. E. M. Obeid and related to forests. Before the tea break the Hon. R. S. L. Jones and the Hon. M. R. Kersten asked questions on forests. As you did not outline at the beginning of Committee meeting that you would not allow such questions and you accepted the previous three questions, I would assume that you would be fair after the tea break.

CHAIR: I certainly did not accept anything in particular. Questions were directed to the Minister and the Minister did not take a point of order. They were outside the guidelines of this session. The Minister has taken a point of order on this issue. Does he wish to pursue that point? If so, I will rule the question out of order and we will proceed on.

Mr YEADON: I will take the question. As it involves a general employment issue, I shall refer it to Dr Gellatly.

Dr GELLATLY: There are only four budget programs, so the staffing includes support services such as corporate services, technical services and
Page 2628
regional staff as well as full-time staff. Although there is clearly a reduction of 55 across the new amalgamated department, this comes from the reduction in head office corporate services. The reduction is the share of the country towns water, sewerage and drainage program that picks up the reduction in overall corporate service numbers. It is not an actual reduction in the program delivery for the country towns water, sewerage and drainage program. In regard to the staff from public works, the answer is no; all staff who came across from the Public Works Department will remain with the new department and there will be no transfer back.

The Hon. M. R. KERSTEN: I also intend to ask a general question. I refer the Minister to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, at page 501. Total current payments in the vital area of integrated natural resources policy have declined from an estimated $10.2 million in 1994-95 to a mere $3.4 million forecast for the 1995-96 year. Given the importance that the Government has placed on integrated resource management policy, exemplified by the amalgamation of the Department of Water Resources and the Department of Conservation and Land Management, how can the Government justify such a huge reduction in this area?

Mr YEADON: I shall ask Dr Gellatly to respond to that question.

Dr GELLATLY: There are a number of variations. Budget Paper No. 3 at page 500 refers to the Resource and Conservation Assessment Council. A sum of $5 million that was originally in the budget last year has been transferred to the Department of Planning and Urban Affairs as it will come under the responsibility of that portfolio. That accounts for one of the major reductions. The other reduction relates to asset valuation across the department. A reduction has been made in other operating expenses, from $4 million to $1.499 million, which is an abnormal expense due to the revaluation of assets. The addition of that $3 million and the $5 million for the Resource and Conservation Assessment Council accounts for a fair amount of the difference. Most of the rest of the difference results from minor adjustments. The other point to be made is that the integrated and strategic natural resources policy is a new program which, as the Minister mentioned earlier, has been set up. The amount allocated to staff is about $1.4 million, so there has been no actual reduction in services; most of the reduction relates to accounting.

The Hon. JENNIFER GARDINER: With respect to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, at page 495 it is noted that the average staffing level has fallen from 2,768 to 2,713 - a decrease of 55 people. Could the Minister or Dr Gellatly identify where the staff number is being reduced, which programs and services are being cut and how many of the cuts result from the amalgamation of the Department of Water Resources and the Department of Conservation and Land Management?

Dr GELLATLY: The reduction of 55 across the department is accounted for in corporate head office services, which would be expected following the amalgamation of two large departments and a major part of the Public Works Department. The reduction is spread evenly across the different programs, in that they relate to corporate support areas. At the direction of the Government, there has been no reduction in front-line delivery service staff.

The Hon. M. R. KERSTEN: I refer the Minister to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, at page 501. It is noted that Murray-Darling Basin Commission user charges are to increase from $237,000 to $403,000 in 1995-96. That is a large increase. How much, if any, of the increase reflects the Minister's 5 September announcement of an across-the-board increase in water charges of 1.35¢ per megalitre?

Mr YEADON: Revenue received from the Murray-Darling Basin Commission is derived from land rents, royalties received from Pacific Power for power generated from the Hume Dam and house rents. The expected increase in revenue will be obtained from Pacific Power for increased royalties from electricity generated at the Hume Dam. Arrangements are presently being made between the Premiers of New South Wales and Victoria to amend the Hume Dam power station agreement to increase royalty charges, which have not changed since 1954. The revenue received from the Murray-Darling Basin Commission is being used in 1995-96 to reduce the total overall New South Wales contribution of funds to the Murray-Darling Basin Commission. That is noted in the water management program section.

New South Wales is a party to the Murray-Darling Basin Commission initiative and its responsibilities are defined under the Murray-Darling Basin Act 1992 and an agreement. These responsibilities include meeting costs associated with construction and maintenance of commission structures and the implementation of strategies developed by the Murray-Darling Basin Ministerial Council investigation into salinity mitigation, water quality monitoring. The contribution by New South Wales to the Murray-Darling Basin Commission 1995-96 program is $15 million. The 1994-95 contribution provided by New South Wales totalled $11.6 million, so there will be an increase of $3.5 million. The variance is due to the need for New South Wales to provide capital works funds to replace Torrumbarry Weir and to progress works associated with stabilising the Hume Dam earthen embankment.

In return for providing $15.1 million to the overall Murray-Darling Basin Commission 1995-96 program, which covers all works, measures and investigations across the Murray-Darling Basin, the Department of Land and Water Conservation will receive $15.6 million to undertake Murray-Darling Basin Commission projects located within New
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South Wales. The New South Wales program includes: maintaining all Murray-Darling Basin Commission structures that are the responsibility of New South Wales; stabilising the earthen embankment at the Hume Dam; carrying out safety surveillance at Murray-Darling Basin Commission structures; undertaking environmental flow studies in the lower Darling; salinity investigations; water quality monitoring in the major rivers in the Murray-Darling Basin; and carrying out hydrological investigations at Lake Victoria and Menindee Lakes. This work will benefit not only New South Wales but the entire Murray-Darling Basin, which includes Victoria, South Australia and Queensland. The provision of adequate funds for the Murray-Darling Basin initiative is endorsed by the Government to allow the effective planning, development and management of water, land and other environmental resources of the Murray-Darling Basin. These funds are not related to the recent announcements regarding water pricing.

The Hon. M. R. KERSTEN: My question is supplementary. I refer the Minister to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 501 subprogram 51.1.2, Integrated and Strategic Natural Resources Policy. How close are we to achieving full cost recovery?

Mr YEADON: Under the Council of Australian Governments agreement each Government is required to report each year on progress with implementing recommendations. New South Wales is at the forefront of water management and leading the way on many of the issues. This has been enhanced by recent water reforms. These consolidated the provisions for environmental flows being developed in New South Wales, and significantly moved rural water charging towards COAG requirements. New South Wales is the first State to explicitly separate out and recover all of the costs identified by COAG, including necessary resource management costs. The institutional reforms implicit from the Council of Australian Governments and Hilmer are also well developed. The separation of regulatory and operations roles has occurred in the water and forestry areas within the Department of Land and Water Conservation. As well, the Office of Natural Resources Policy has a regulatory role in auditing major water corporations, such as Sydney Water. Of course, we are also referring rural water pricing to the Government Pricing Tribunal.

The Hon. JENNIFER GARDINER: I would like to follow up on and clarify that answer. Mr Kersten asked how close we are to achieving full cost recovery. Do you have a specific date that you can indicate?

Mr YEADON: The Council of Australian Governments has 2001 and we will be there by then, if not earlier.

The Hon. M. R. KERSTEN: My question relates to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 503, the line item referring to the forest industry restructure package, and to a figure of $35 million in 1995-96. Who will be eligible to receive compensation under this package? Specifically, will mill workers - union and non-union - contractors, lorry drivers and mill owners be entitled to compensation? Do the matching funds from the Federal Government that the Government hopes to receive make provision for mill owners, as well as mill workers and contractors?

Mr YEADON: On 13 June the Government announced its program on forestry reform for the timber industry, and logging has already been transferred out of high conservation old growth and wilderness and an assessment is being undertaken by the Resource and Conservation Assessment Council, RACAC, to identify further areas. To bring the timber industry into a sustainable yield we have our quota cuts -

[Time expired.]

The Hon. JANELLE SAFFIN: My question relates to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 508, which indicates that $95.5 million has been spent on the water resources management program. Will the Minister indicate how part of this will be used to address the declining state of New South Wales rivers?

Mr YEADON: Dams, river regulation, and increasing water use have severely damaged many of our rivers and wetlands. To halt the decline and improve the health of our rivers it requires specific allocations of water for environmental purposes and more environmentally sensitive management of water supply and water extractions. Action on environmental flows and growth in water use has been recognised as a high priority by the Council of Australian Governments, and more recently by the Murray-Darling Basin Ministerial Council. The Government is committed, through the Murray-Darling Basin Ministerial Council, to cap water diversions throughout the basin. In some rivers it will be necessary to reduce water use to address critical river health problems.

The Government took steps in the recently announced rural water conservation package to limit the potential for further growth in water use. Interim measures have been instituted pending the development of longer-term strategies to implement the cap and ensure appropriate environmental flows. These include limits on off-allocation water use and a moratorium on permanent transfers of the unused portions of entitlements and allocations to wetlands in the Macquarie and Gwydir valleys. It is essential that a comprehensive and effective environmental flow program is undertaken as soon as possible to ensure significant improvements in river health and fish and wetland communities, and to provide the irrigation industry with better clarification of its entitlements and access to flows.

The proposed program has been designed to ensure that the best mix of measures is implemented. That will achieve a real improvement
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to the rivers and wetlands at the least possible cost to the irrigation industry and to the rural community generally. Inevitably there will be controversy over the measures and their likely impact on the rural economy. The program has been designed to allow effective community input into the process through environmental flows advisory committees for each catchment, as well as ongoing discussions with water users and other interest groups. In the future the Government will implement a revised management plan for the Macquarie marshes, and I hope that will be in about December 1995, and a management plan for the Gwydir wetlands early next year. The development of both plans has included extensive consultation with the community and with industry groups.

The Government will also implement a five-part environmental flow package for all regulated valleys and this is part of the broader water reforms that the Government has put in place. That package includes minimum releases from storages; reserving water in dams to meet unpredicted water quality, fish and wetlands needs; restrictions on the use of natural inflows to rivers below dams; a review of weirs to assess whether they should be removed, modified or otherwise have their operation revised; and revised water supply delivery rules aimed at achieving more natural flow patterns wherever that can be possibly achieved. The Government will conduct a review of the thermal impact of dam releases on rivers - that is where water is released from dams and, because there is only a low-level gate on the dam, that water is often very cold if not freezing - and also develop an appropriate dam modification program where possible to rectify that.

The Government will conduct a review of water use and extraction rules for weirs in the Barwon-Darling rivers system; it will be revising licensing and water diversion rules for unregulated rivers - that is, those rivers without a dam - according to a stressed rivers classification system which considers local environmental, water flow and water use factors; and it will be developing appropriate environmental flow conditions for Sydney Water and for Hunter Water dams. The Environment Protection Authority, the Department of Land and Water Conservation and New South Wales Fisheries will also be working to develop a set of river flow and river quality objectives for all river basins, and public input will be invited and will be an important component of that strategy.

The Hon. E. M. OBEID: I refer the Minister to Budget Paper No. 3, page 498, subprogram 51.1.1, Integrated Natural Resources Information. An allocation of $2.44 million is indicated for this program, which has the objective of providing improved access to integrated land, water, vegetation, coastal and other natural resources information systems. Are there any practical outputs which the Minister can cite to illustrate achievement of this objective?

Mr YEADON: Yes. The achievements of the integrated natural resources information program are well illustrated by the recent release of the Natural Resources Data Directory, NRDD. The directory was launched and demonstrated by me at the State Library on 28 August. The directory is a computerised guide to information about natural resources in New South Wales and the Australian Capital Territory. The NRDD does not contain data sets but directs users to relevant data sources. Funding for the project was provided from the former Natural Resources Audit Council, NRAC, with additional funding by the Department of Land and Water Conservation management for initial data collection. The total amount of funding provided by NRAC for the development of the directory, and that included software and data collection, was $498,000.

The department's contribution to the development phase was of the order of $100,000 and annual maintenance costs are expected to be approximately $100,000. The directory contains references to more than 3,500 data sets about air, land, soil, water, flora, fauna, cultural and other features of New South Wales and the Australian Capital Territory. Over 200 Commonwealth, New South Wales, Australian Capital Territory and local government agencies have data sets included within the directory. If it were to be published as a book or a document it would have to incorporate details that would use up to nine reams of paper with a corresponding number of pages of maps. The directory contains basic information about each data set. There is a name, address and phone number for more than 650 contact people.

The great benefit of the directory is that the community is able to directly contact people responsible for looking after those data sets. The directory is a unique product for the following reasons: it is the most comprehensive government guide to natural resources in New South Wales and it is the result of the first ever statewide inter-governmental cooperative effort to increase access to invaluable natural resources information; and it is supplied with the easiest to use map and text search capability of any computerised directory in Australia. Finally, the directory contains the first ever electronic listing of aerial photography in New South Wales covering several decades.

The Hon. I. COHEN: My question is from the report of State Forests of New South Wales, 30 June 1994, on page 73. What are the specific income and expenditure components of the operating surplus detailed on page 73, relating to the following operations: native forests, plantation operations of hardwoods and plantation operations of softwoods?

Mr YEADON: I will refer that question to Dr Drielsma.

Dr DRIELSMA: It is not possible to break down the income expenditure directly into components by the product groupings that you have
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indicated. The note at the bottom of the table, dealing with the operating surplus, indicates the nature of the revenues that arise from those groups. The revenue from softwoods was $46.1 million, the revenue from hardwoods was $43.3 million, and the revenue from cypress pine was $2.8 million. In putting together the accounts for the organisation we do direct costs down to product levels. I made some reference to that earlier. However, a number of overheads are shared equally across the organisation, so that it is not possible to break those down definitively into an income and expenditure statement for each product. Nevertheless, in terms of product contribution before overheads, I can indicate that for 1994-95, which was the relevant year for this annual report, the contribution from the softwood group was $33.4 million, the contribution arising from the hardwood products group was $21.4 million, and the contribution arising from cypress was $1.7 million. There are also other non-timber related activities, but those were the contributions before the allocation of overheads for those particular product groups.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: I refer to page 66 of the State Forests report. Dr Drielsma indicated that the royalty rates are set according to the end use of the timber. Who determines the purpose for which logs are to be used, and who then determines the royalty rates? Should not the royalty rates be set based on the highest value use of the timber and not according to the end use?

Mr YEADON: This whole issue is being referred to the Government Pricing Tribunal for its consideration. The Government will have a report from that tribunal early next year. That investigation will provide the Government with invaluable information as to how to proceed to ensure a proper pricing regime in relation to royalties for all hardwood timber in New South Wales. The Government is very much committed to ensuring that the people of New South Wales get a proper return on their valuable resource. The referral to the Government Pricing Tribunal on that aspect will form a major component of the Government's broader forestry restructuring and forest policy, and will ensure that any problems that have been identified about inadequate royalties and pricing will be rectified in the future.

The other central component will be value adding. Within the timber industry this is a key complementary component of royalty pricing. The Government has made it very clear in its forest policy that it will ensure that value adding and downstream processing are very much in place within the timber industry. For many years the industry has been characterised by lack of investment in plant and equipment. There has been little investment in sawmilling operations since World War II. One only has to visit a number of these mills to know that equipment at those mills is antiquated. It was primarily designed to cut old growth logs only. That can be done with a single saw because the logs are so old that they do not bend and stretch, but much better and more technologically advanced plant and equipment is needed to deal with logs taken from regrowth forests. Therefore, it is imperative that anyone who wishes to stay in the industry in the future should undertake that sort of investment, whether they like it or whether they do not.

The Government will ensure that quite explicit undertakings are given by mill operators or timber operators who wish to stay in the industry that they will invest in downstream processing equipment. That will ensure that there is not a minimalist approach by mill owners - simply acquiring the minimum plant and equipment necessary to deal with regrowth forests and not acquiring plant and equipment that can add further value to a product. This State has valuable resources in native eucalypt forests and other timber. That timber has unique strength and aesthetic qualities. We must ensure that that timber is processed into the most valuable product to maximise the return from it. That will have benefits not only for the economy of New South Wales and the timber operators themselves but will have major benefits for all who work in the timber industry, including the workers. The two key timber industries within New South Wales are the hardwood native industry and the softwood industry. In the softwood sector, where there is more forward thinking and value adding, much better wages and conditions are available for workers. The Government seeks to achieve the same for the hardwood industry.

The Hon. JENNIFER GARDINER: My question relates to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 497, total capital program for the department, which is down from $163 million to $147.7 million. Could the Minister identify where those cost cuts will be made? In particular, which grants and advances will be reduced? How can the Minister justify those reductions at a time when the Government is telling us that there are pressing land and water conservation problems in New South Wales?

Mr YEADON: I will refer the question to Dr Gellatly.

Dr GELLATLY: The total capital program reduction was from the actual figure last year of $152.84 million to $147.77 million. It is hard to separate out one particular cause as that total reduction is an aggregation of the reductions in the 11 programs of the department. There are in each of these capital grants a number of increases and decreases. Country town and water supply, at $7.5 million, is a major component of that allocation. There are grants to councils for the estuaries as well as the coastal management program of $27.991 million. There has been some reduction in the Public Reserves Management Fund. Last year there were some one-off grants for the Wollongong showground. Also, there was a specific inflow from Treasury to Luna Park through the Luna Park Trust. So it is hard to give a general
Page 2632
explanation of the aggregate figure because it relates to a number of individual programs. One would need to go through each program and take into account the increases and reductions in each of those programs. In some instances there were reallocations of items listed in the capital grants, such as the maintenance and non-operating line item. So it is difficult to give overall justification.

The Hon. JENNIFER GARDINER: I ask a supplementary question. Would Dr Gellatly take those detailed questions on notice and provide figures on those increases and decreases?

Dr GELLATLY: We could give figures for each of the 11 programs and detail the increases and decreases in those capital programs.

CHAIR: Are you prepared to take the questions on notice, Minister?

Mr YEADON: Yes, Mr Chairman.

The Hon. M. R. KERSTEN: My question relates to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 514. The Murray-Darling Basin Commission user charges revenue is budgeted to increase from $364,000 in 1994-95 to $619,000 for 1995-96, and income from water operations will increase from nil to $800,000 over the same period. Can the Minister clarify where the burden of these extra charges will be borne, and for what purpose?

Mr YEADON: That item, in general, takes into account work that is required on the Hume Dam, and reflects additional construction activity on that dam. That is as a result of the dam safety committee identifying some major problems with the Hume Dam's structural integrity. Those familiar with the dam would know that a significant component of the dam is an earthen wall and that recent tests indicated a potential problem with the structural integrity of that wall. Because that potential problem puts at risk life and property, it needs to be rectified as a matter of priority. Interim arrangements for possible emergency measures have been taken where towns may be affected by a breach of the dam. Work has started on that

rectification problem, and it is continuing, to address the potential identified risk as soon as possible and ensure the safety of the dam in future. The second part of the question related to income from water charges. That income is being spread across a range of programs to ensure better management and water quality.

The Hon. JENNIFER GARDINER: I have a further question on forestry. It relates to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, page 503, where there is a figure of $8.5 million allocated for development of hardwood plantations. Can the Minister indicate where those plantations will be sited, how much of the money will be spent developing plantations on private land, and how much of it will be spent on developing plantations on public land? Is the expenditure contingent upon the passing of legislation to guarantee plantation harvesting rights? When does the Minister expect the Government to have that legislation in place?

Mr YEADON: The first part of a staged three-year $47 million hardwood plantation establishment program was announced as part of our forestry reform agenda. This financial year, a separate allocation of $8.5 million has been made available for the hardwood plantation program, whereas in 1994-95 funding for that purpose was included in the appropriate Government contribution to State Forests. This is a key initiative in the Government's transition strategy for the timber industry in moving its activities from old growth to regrowth plantation. The allocation for 1995-96 will allow State Forests to lift its target for hardwood plantation establishment by 50 per cent, from 2,000 to 3,000 hectares. The plantation establishment target for 1996-97 is 5,000 hectares, rising to 10,000 hectares in 1997-98. About two-thirds of the 3,000 hectares of new planting in 1995-96 would be on private land under joint venture agreements between State Forests and farmers.

[Time expired.]

The Committee proceeded to deliberate on the recommendation of the vote.


Page 2633






The Hon. Dorothy Isaksen The Hon. Helen Sham-Ho
The Hon. Elisabeth Kirkby The Hon. R. B. Rowland Smith
The Hon. A. B. Manson The Hon. Ann Symonds
Reverend the Hon. F. J. Nile



The Hon. F. Lo Po', Minister for Consumer Affairs, and Minister for Women

Department for Women
Ms C. Bloch, Director-General
Ms L. Dorn, Director, Management and Information Services
Ms W. Semple, Manager, Executive Support and Community Relations

Department of Fair Trading
Ms E. Coombs, Acting Director-General
Mr B. Given, Assistant Director-General of Consumer Affairs
Mr G. Mostyn, Assistant Director-General, Building Services Corporation

HomeFund Commissioner's Office
Mr M. Silk, Manager, Corporate Services

Page 2634

CHAIR: I declare open the Estimates Committee for Consumer Affairs and Women. At this meeting the Committee will examine the expenditure from the Consolidated Fund for the portfolio areas of Consumer Affairs and Women.

Motion by Reverend the Hon. F. J. Nile agreed to:

That, in accordance with the Resolution of the Legislative Council of 11 October 1994, the Committee authorises the sound and television broadcasting, as appropriate, of its public proceedings, unless otherwise ordered.

CHAIR: I propose to allow questions in relation to agency number 32 Department for Women in blocks of time allocated as follows: Opposition members 10 minutes, crossbench members 10 minutes, Government members 10 minutes. I then propose to allocate questions in relation to agency number 30 Department of Consumer Affairs and agency number 31 HomeFund Commissioner's Office and to allow questions to be asked in blocks of time as follows: Opposition members 20 minutes, crossbench members 20 minutes, Government members 20 minutes. The last 30 minutes will be divided into 10-minute blocks. I have been notified that pursuant to resolution questions will be asked regarding the following statutory bodies or corporations: Motor Vehicle Repair Industry Council and Building Services Corporation. It is proposed that these questions be asked during the blocks of time allocated to agency number 30 and agency number 31. I declare the proposed expenditure for agency number 32 Department for Women open for examination.

The Hon. PATRICIA FORSYTHE: Minister I must note that it is somewhat ironic that in these family friendly hours we are dealing with the portfolio on women at 7 o'clock at night. I refer to page 284 of Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, the line item dealing with women's court support services. Minister I congratulate you on this line item but I am a little surprised that it is $1.2 million when I understand that in March Treasury approved $1.5 million for these services. What guidelines have been developed for the spending of the money? Will it be needs based and can you provide a breakdown of how it is proposed the money be spent?

Mrs LO PO': The Government's election promise on the court support scheme is being honoured by the Government. We are giving $1.5 million all up. On 1 June 1995 I announced that funding will be provided for court support assistance to aid women victims of violent crimes such as sexual assault and domestic violence. The Government has since allocated recurrent funding of $1.5 million in court assistance schemes in 1995-96, of which $1.238 million has been allocated to the Department for Women. Of this, $30,000 was spent in 1994-95 to provide funding for existing schemes. I issued a press release on 1 June which stated that funds would be provided to guarantee the continued operation of court support schemes for women. The Department for Women identified seven schemes which required assistance prior to the implementation of the women's court assistance program. Three of these were funded by the Department of Urban Affairs and Planning through the area assistance schemes. The department agreed to continue the funding until 31 December 1995. Four other schemes at Maitland, Burwood, Redfern and Waverley received interim funding from the Department for Women court assistance program funds to ensure their continued operation until 31 December 1995.

The court assistance program is intended to empower women who have experienced violence to use the legal system. Court assistance schemes will provide a range of integrated services including support, legal representation, information and appropriate referrals. An important aim of the schemes is to demystify the court process for women by providing support and legal advice. The provision of competent legal representation will assist women to obtain apprehended violence orders tailored to their individual needs. Women often withdraw from apprehended violence order proceedings - for a variety of reasons including apprehension about using the legal system and the lack of legal representation and support. The existence of court assistance schemes should help reduce the number of women who withdraw from court proceedings and contribute to an improvement in general court processes for dealing with domestic violence matters. In recognition of the Legal Aid Commission's experience in administering funding programs for community-based legal services, along with its work within Local Courts, the recently completed report on the women's court assistance program recommends that the program be administered by the Legal Aid Commission.

The Hon. PATRICIA FORSYTHE: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 282 and page 284, the line item dealing with grants and subsidies, in particular the women's services grants program. The budget estimate for 1995-96 is $1 million. As $835,000 was allocated by the coalition, can you tell me whether the $1 million allocated in the current budget year includes the $835,000 which was previously allocated by the coalition? That is the first part of the question.

Mrs LO PO': Let us hear the second part.

The Hon. PATRICIA FORSYTHE: I want to know when the applications will be advertised and the process used to determine the recipients of grants and subsidies. Will every application have to follow the process?

Mrs LO PO': The grant allocation of $1 million for 1994-95 was underspent by $835,000 because of the cumbersome administrative requirements imposed by the previous Government. The requirement of two funding rounds and a payment schedule of three instalments of 40 per cent, 40 per cent and 20 per cent made it virtually
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impossible for funds to be fully expended within the financial year. While the need to carry over some funds from one financial year to another will inevitably occur, I have taken steps to ensure that this will be minimised in future years. To this end a more streamlined administrative funding model for the grants program has been developed by the Department for Women. A key feature of the model is having only one funding round, with the upper limits of funds approved for individual projects higher than last year. The payment schedule for grants payments has also been revised to allow for progress payments of 40 per cent, 45 per cent and 5 per cent. This schedule retains accountability but has the added benefit of providing better assistance to grantees and allowing more funds to be expended within the financial year.

These key changes to the grants program will minimise the extent of rollover of funds in future years. The model also provides for improved accountability mechanisms which have been developed in line with the principles established in the Independent Commission Against Corruption report "Taken for Granted: Better Management of Government Grants." Let me add that, while these changes will be implemented in future years, my Government has honoured the commitment to the second round of the 1994-95 funding cycle made by the previous administration. Grants for this second round amounted to half a million dollars and were distributed to 30 projects. In total, 53 projects were approved in 1994-95, with $944,000 of funds committed and $50,000 retained as a contingency fund. The grants were provided to projects aimed at reducing violence against women, extending choices, improving the status of women and changing the portrayal of women.

The Hon. PATRICIA FORSYTHE: Could I have that clarified: you said you have honoured the commitment?

Mrs LO PO': Absolutely.

The Hon. PATRICIA FORSYTHE: Does that $1 million include any money carried over from money that had been allocated or is it an additional $1 million?

Mrs LO PO': I will ask Ms Bloch to answer that.

Ms BLOCH: Yes, it includes the money carried forward.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 284, other services, special projects. Has the money been provided in this line item for the establishment of an industry-government-consumer forum to review portrayal of women in the media?

Mrs LO PO': Ms Bloch will answer.

Ms BLOCH: The Minister has not yet considered the individual projects in that line item. As you know, the budget was brought down only three weeks ago and there has been no specific consideration given to particular projects at this stage.

The Hon. PATRICIA FORSYTHE: I refer to page 282 in relation to grants and subsidies. Does the budget provide for money to the Jessie Street library? If so, how much and can you give details of grants that have been made to the library since 1994?

Mrs LO PO': The Government is committed to ensuring that the history of women is documented, and is strongly supportive of initiatives such as the Jessie Street Women's Library. Women, despite their outstanding achievements, still receive insufficient recognition for their historical contributions, and women's written heritage is often difficult to assess. The Jessie Street Women's Library was established in 1989 to meet the need for a national library with the sole focus on preserving the written heritage of women. The library aims to develop and collect special holdings of printed, archival and oral history material. The Government has therefore budgeted for $50,000 per annum for the next two years in matched funding for the Jessie Street Women's Library. The money is to be allocated through the ministry for the arts. This allocation will support the library during its critical establishment process, and is one of the practical ways we are supporting women's achievements.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, Page 284, line item other operating expenses. Has money been allocated for the production of a women's budget statement? If so, when will it be introduced?

Mrs LO PO': The answer is no.

The Hon. PATRICIA FORSYTHE: I refer also to Budge Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 284, line item other operating expenses. Does the new Premier's Women's Advisory Council have a budget? If so, how much is allocated to it, and will it have resources to provide independent advice to other departments?

Mrs LO PO': Members of the New South Wales Women's Consultative Council concluded their two-year appointments in June. That organisation has been replaced by the Premier's Council for Women, chaired by me and reporting directly to the Premier. The council consists of 12 women with specific expertise in particular fields, and it will have the opportunity to influence decision making and strategic policy formulation at the highest level of government. The role of the Premier's Council for Women will be to develop a whole-of-government approach to the needs of women for consideration by the Premier; provide advice to the Department of Women on ongoing review of relevant government policies, legislation initiatives, institutions, and practices; and provide services to ensure that they reflect the needs of women in government policies. It will monitor the
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coordination and planning of the development and implementation of the Government's long-term and short-term policies and strategies for women -

[Time expired.]

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: I believe from questions asked previously by members of the Opposition that the money left over from last year has been rolled over. Is it possible for you to tell us what requests for funding were received last year, but were not funded, and I refer to page 284, Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1? Also, under line item other services, special projects, last year there was an allocation of just on $1 million, but this year only $670,000 has been allocated. As you had a rollover from last year, why is it not possible for you to spend more on special projects?

Mrs LO PO': In 1994-95, 53 projects were approved and $944,000 of funds were committed. Certainly there was $1 million there. The grants were provided to projects aimed at reducing violence against women, extending choices, improving the status of women, and changing the portrayal of women. For the second part of the question I will hand you over to the Director-General for Women.

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: According to the line item special projects at the bottom of page 284, Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, there has been a cutback from last year's budget of $1 million to $670,000 in this year's budget.

Ms BLOCH: You are talking about special projects, not the grants program?

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: Special projects, yes.

Ms DORN: In 1994-95 the Women's Information Referral Service was treated as a project and this year its budget has been included in the department's employee-related expenses and other operating expenses, so it is not included in the project for this year, which explains the difference.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: I should like to clarify something. You mentioned the women's services grants program allocation of $1 million in 1994-95, but only $165,000 was spent. Even though the grants were approved, the $1 million was not taken up?

Mrs LO PO': When we came to government we found that the second round of projects had not been committed. We honoured the previous Government's promise and, in fact, the evaluation committee ensured that the former head of the Women's Consultative Council, Kerry Fallon-Horgan, was part of the process. Not only did we honour the previous Government's promises, but we ensured that the priorities were kept with integrity by ensuring that the Chair of the previous council also sat on the committee.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: Does that mean that the $1 million you have budgeted for 1995-96 will go in grants to similar groups or have some of those groups been cut off the list and other groups added?

Mrs LO PO': These are one-off grants, and we are about to advertise for them for the ensuing year. The Premier's council will discuss the priorities of the grants, then we will make sure that people know what the priorities are. But I would guess that domestic violence is always a priority for women so that one-off grants to assist people with domestic violence or other sorts of violence would certainly be part of the priority for the Government.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: I notice on page 285 of Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, that in 1994-95 there were minor user charges of $135,000. There is no allocation at line item user charges revenue, subprogram 32.1.1 for 1995-96. Does that mean there are no user-charge type activities being conducted by your department?

Mrs LO PO': That is right.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: What would they have been? I am not encouraging you to charge women, I am just wondering where it came from.

Ms DORN: The $135,000 for 1994-95 actual expenditure was for recoupment of salaries for officers on secondment to other departments, and also sales of some minor property assets. We do not propose that we will be recouping any money this year for those items.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: I refer to page 285, Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, line item donations and industry contributions of $30,000. No budget item appears for 1995-96. Does that mean that you are not expecting any donations, you are not seeking them, or you would like to get them if you could?

Mrs LO PO': There was a donation by the Law Foundation for the gender bias in the law project, but we are not expecting a donation in similar terms this year. The project has been evaluated and we are not expecting a similar amount of money.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: I notice that you make grants. Is there no policy to encourage corporations or other groups to make contributions to your department that could be used to assist in domestic violence or other areas?

Mrs LO PO': Certainly it reflects a need in that department to give money. Money would never be rejected, but at the moment we have not planned for that. It may eventuate, but it has not been planned for.

The Hon. DOROTHY ISAKSEN: I draw your attention to agency number 32, Department for Women, page 282, Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, the line item referring to employee-related expenses. Why did the department overspend its allocation for employee-related expenses in 1994-95?

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Mrs LO PO': The department overspent its budget allocation for employee-related expenses by $230,000 because of the failure by the previous administration to forward plan for staffing costs. My government inherited this situation when we came to office. During 1994-95 the department's average equivalent full-time staffing level grew from 32 to 51, a dramatic increase of 19 equivalent full-time positions that the department did not have sufficient funds to fully cover on a permanent basis. Areas in which staff levels increased included the creation of eight positions in the policy division, which included four positions to work in the area of violence; five additional positions were created for the establishment of the information and research branch; and two new positions were created in the executive areas including the position of Director, Management of Information Services, and senior executive service band one position, Director of Policy Division.

The increase in staffing also included the creation of four temporary positions for the pilot stage of the women's information and referral service. It is estimated that staffing levels in the department in 1995-96 will approximate the level of last year, but let me stress that this Government is about responsible fiscal management where the focus is on redirecting resources to the community. To this end the Government has fulfilled its election commitment to establish the women's information and referral service on a permanent basis by providing recurrent funding for $300,000 for the service. This funding budgets for the creation of five positions in the service. Let me also add that the budget does not include any reductions in the level of SES positions in the department. Again this demonstrates the Government's commitment to keep the women's portfolio adequately resourced to fulfil Labor's vision for women in New South Wales.

The Hon. ANN SYMONDS: I refer to subprogram 32.1.1, page 284, Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1. Under line item activities, there is a reference to education and community relations. What action is the department taking to meet the demand for its publications in 1995-96?

Mrs LO PO': The Department for Women spent almost $140,000, which is $162,922 in total, or $136,867 including the annual report for the department, of its 1994-95 budget on publications. This is a large outlay for a department that had an overall budget allocation of $4.6 million in 1994-95. During the 1994-95 period the Government produced and distributed more than 20 different booklets, pamphlets and reports. Those in greatest demand were "Domestic Violence - You Don't have to put up with it" - a brochure printed in English and 16 other language - "If Motherhood is bliss, why do I feel so awful?", directories of organisations for women in New South Wales and the Australian Capital Territory, the "Women and superannuation" brochure, the "Gender bias and the Law" report, "Women in New South Wales", and "Guidelines for Mentoring of Women".

There has been a substantial increase in the cost of producing and distributing printed material over the past year. There is a global paper shortage, therefore ever-increasing prices of 8 per cent to 10 per cent per quarter. Paper accounts for 40 per cent of the total printing costs. The department's review of its publications distribution also indicated that large quantities of publications, particularly those on domestic violence, were ordered by other large government agencies. The Department for Women is therefore negotiating with other agencies to co-publish material and assist such agencies to produce their own publications. The department has already negotiated successfully with Redfern Legal Centre Publishing to continue to update and publish the "Women and Family Law" booklet using funding provided by the New South Wales Law Foundation. The department has developed a comprehensive distribution database. The information from the database will help in forecasting publications required by women in New South Wales.

The Hon. A. B. MANSON: I want to carry on and give you the opportunity to finish answering a question that was asked of you by the Hon. Patricia Forsythe in regard to the Premier's Council for Women. I refer to subprogram 32.1.1, page 284, Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, line item activities. With the effluxion of time for Opposition questions you were unable to finish that answer. I would like to understand what this woman's consultative body has been replaced by and I am interested to know the role of the council and the estimates of its expenditure for 1995-96.

Mrs LO PO': I thank you for your consideration. In addition to the answer I gave the Hon. Patricia Forsythe, the Premier's Council for Women will monitor the coordination and planning of the development and implementation of the Government's long-term and short-term policies and strategies for women. The council will provide advice on the appropriate provision of public information, education programs and community consultation with respect to the Government's policies for women. The estimated expenditure of the council in 1995-96 is $110,000 for 10 months. Its estimated annual expenditure is $132,000. The Women's Consultative Council had a budget of $141,000.

The direction for women in this State needs to be changed. It is 20 years since the International Women's Year. Over the last seven years I have watched the issues of concern to women slip up and down the political agenda. The Premier's Council for Women will embed once and for all the issues of concern to women in government policy. Government departments will take up the issues of concern to women across the board. Eventually - not this century - there will be no need for a government department for women; the issues of concern to women will be embedded in every government department.

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Twenty years after the International Women's Year issues of concern to women should not be tacked on as an extra, as has been the case. The Premier's Council for Women is trying to change the way that the Department for Women works, and put down basic and fundamental issues of concern to women. It is an exciting time for us. It is a change in direction. This is something that no government has tried before. I am optimistic that the women on the council, who are good at what they do, will be able to do this very well.

The Hon. DOROTHY ISAKSEN: I refer to subprogram 32.1.1, on page 284 of Budget Paper No. 3. Will the Minister tell the Committee how much it cost the Government to have a representative at the United Nations Fourth World Conference on Women, held recently in Beijing? Who were the representatives at that conference?

Mrs LO PO': Reba Meagher, the honourable member for Cabramatta, represented the women of New South Wales at that conference. She was selected as an adviser to the official Australian Government delegation on the primary criterion that she was an elected representative from a State. New South Wales was the only State to have an elected person go to the Beijing conference. As there was to be only one elected representative at the conference it made sense that the most populous State in Australia had the only representative. I was pleased that Reba Meagher went to that conference. The expenditure for Ms Meagher's trip amounted to $11,779, which consisted of air travel to Beijing, and accommodation and living expenses during the conference. These costs were consistent with the expenses of other members of the Australian delegation. The cost of the trip was jointly met by the Premier's Department and the Department for Women.

[Time expired.]

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: Before I commence with questions on the Department of Consumer Affairs, I would like to table a list of questions on notice with respect to the Department for Women.

CHAIR: That is out of order. Please proceed with your questions on the Department of Consumer Affairs.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: I refer the Minister to Budget Paper No. 3, page 265, the line item relating to the total for recurrent services and capital works and services for the Minister for Consumer Affairs and Minister for Women. Given that the Minister has just announced a restructure of the department, can she advise whether these are the estimates for the restructured department.

Mrs LO PO': Yes, these are the estimates for the restructured department.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: In this total, what is the budget for the Minister's office? Why is there no separate line item for this?

Mrs LO PO': The total for the Minister's office?

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: There is no budget item for the Minister's office.

Mrs LO PO': That is true, there is no budget for the Minister's office. The 1994-95 budget was $725,000. This figure was increased by the Treasurer to $756,000 to cover an increase in staff after the March 1995 election. The $74,132 overrun was totally attributable to the termination payments made to the staff of the former Minister, which was funded from the budget of the department.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: What is the host agency for your office?

Mrs LO PO': It is $830,000 for the -

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: In consumer affairs?

Mrs LO PO': That is last year's figure. This year the budget is $898,000, which reflects a full year of increased staff establishment.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: I refer to average staffing. How many staff does the Minister have?

Mrs LO PO': I have the average staff of all Ministers.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: How many are there?

Mrs LO PO': There are 10.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: Who are they under contract to?

Mrs LO PO': Which budget item are you referring to?

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: There is no budget item.

Mrs LO PO': Well, why are we talking about it?

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: You are telling me that the line item for the Minister's office in the total -

CHAIR: Could you please refer to a line item.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: I refer to average staffing on page 266. You say that you have 10 staff in your office. Who are they under contract to?

Mrs LO PO': To the public employment office, I would imagine.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: What are the salaries of the ministerial staff?

Mrs LO PO': They are award salaries.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: Which award?

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Mrs LO PO': The award for the appropriate officer.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: I refer to page 267, the line item employee-related expenses. I note that Elizabeth Coombs was an acting director of the department and Commissioner for Consumer Affairs. Is that correct?

Mrs LO PO': Yes - she is sitting next to me.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: How long will it be before the department has an actual director, a leader? Is the Minister aware that there is uncertainty within her department as a result of the lengthy delay in replacing the former director and commissioner?

CHAIR: The Minister may answer that question, but it is out of order.

Mrs LO PO': I am pleased to hear that it is out of order.

The Hon. PATRICIA FORSYTHE: I refer to page 271, and the line item referring to product testing. Why did you lift the bans on the following products: gas masks that contain asbestos, the T-seat portable folding stool which posed a risk of impaling people, a toy known as the amazing finger chopper, slingshots and dry powders containing asbestos fibres or dust? Why were those bans raised given that one of the program objectives is to promote confidence in the marketplace?

Mrs LO PO': Brian Given is an expert in this field. I will be happy for him to answer the question.

Mr GIVEN: A review of all mandatory standards and banning orders has taken place in consultation with the Federal Bureau of Consumer Affairs and the Product Advisory Committee. The review identified standards and banning orders throughout Australia and split them into those that are national and those that involve more than one State or Territory, and determined which jurisdiction ought to be responsible for reviewing the specifics of those orders. Over the past 12 months New South Wales has reviewed all its banning orders and product safety standards. It has removed those which appear to have no relevance to the marketplace today. In other words, the products are no longer available or suppliers have taken steps to ensure that they are now safe. A whole range of banning orders and standards have been revised on that basis.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: I refer to page 271, and the line item relating to the Conveyances Licensing Committee. I note that there has been a big reduction from $140,000 to $22,000. Why has there been such a reduction? Is the reduction a projection that the conveyancers licensing legislation will be passed? How is it explained?

Mrs LO PO': In 1994-95 the committee was significantly funded by the Government. This funding is to cease partway through 1995-96, with the balance of the funding being received from the Law Society's statutory interest account. In other words, the Government funded it and it will now be handed over to another group.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: What other group?

Mrs LO PO': The Law Society's statutory interest account.

The Hon. PATRICIA FORSYTHE: I refer to page 271. What did it cost to monitor scalping at the New South Wales rugby league grand final? How many inspectors from the department were present? Were there any prosecutions?

Mrs LO PO': Scalping is a worldwide practice in which people resell tickets to popular sporting or entertainment events and charge considerably more than the face value of the tickets. The Government believes that all members of the public should have reasonable access to tickets and will continue to liaise with the organisers of concerts and sporting events to ensure that ticket distribution procedures are properly managed. The Prices Commission set up a maximum resale price per ticket to the 1995 Rugby League grand final on 24 September. The highly visible presence of departmental officers, police and stadium security officers resulted in the activities of the scalpers being severely curtailed at the Sydney Football Stadium and in surrounding areas. The department estimates these operations to have cost a total of $4,422, the greatest component having been administrative costs associated with preparatory work for surveillance activities on grand final day, that is, the preparation of documentation relating to declaration fees and fees for members of the Prices Commission.

Apart from one supervisor, no additional overtime cots were incurred on grand final day, as inspectors were required to work in terms of their enterprise agreement, which obviates the payment of overtime in these circumstances. As no prosecutions eventuated, there are no litigation costs. In June the Premier announced that the State Government will consider tough new penalties for ticket scalpers ahead of the 2000 Olympics. Because the Prices Regulation Act procedures are cumbersome, the department will be researching some effective methods to control scalping prior to the Olympics. The names of the officers who were on duty are Brian Given, Malcolm Finger, Merilyn Betty and Gary Pettit. There were four inspectors. Police performed surveillance duty as well. The police put out a statement later saying that they believed that the heightened recognition of scalping at the ground helped to keep it under surveillance. We are very pleased that this occurred. The legal branch estimates that the average routine Local Court prosecution costs about $900, but no-one was prosecuted.

The Hon. PATRICIA FORSYTHE: Obviously there was some success. The Minister referred to curtailed activities, but in fact a number of sellers advertised in the daily press in the week
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prior to the game. Why was action not taken against them? Are there other events in relation to which the Minister is likely to convene the Prices Commission?

Mrs LO PO': What line item are you referring to?

The Hon. PATRICIA FORSYTHE: The same line item I have been referring to, expenses related to prosecutions, on page 271 of Volume 1 of Budget Paper No. 3.

Mr GIVEN: The regulation on this occasion did not preclude advertising, so therefore no action was taken in relation to those advertisements, although our staff certainly made inquiries of those who were advertising to put them on notice of the prohibition.

The Hon. PATRICIA FORSYTHE: Do you propose to use the Prices Commission again?

Mr GIVEN: That facility is there if particular classifications of goods are declared under the Prices Regulation Act.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: I refer to page 266 of Budget Paper No. 3, summary of total average staffing of the Department of Consumer Affairs. Currently there are 196 positions in the Building Services Corporation. Given the restructuring of the portfolio, will staff numbers decrease? If so, in what magnitude?

Mrs LO PO': It is obvious that when amalgamating some departments there will be decreases in some areas, but the figures for the Department of Consumer Affairs do not include the staff dealing with the Register of Encumbered Vehicles, which has 54 positions, or the staff of the Office of Real Estate Services, which has another 215, but they do include the cooperatives staff. People are certainly aware that the amalgamation is going ahead, and we are concerned to make sure that everybody is comfortable with the amalgamation. There will not be any forced redundancies.

The Hon. PATRICIA FORSYTHE: I refer to the line item dealing with employee-related expenses under the heading HomeFund Commissioner's Office on page 279 of Budget Paper No. 3. What is the size of the HomeFund Advisory Service and the HomeFund Legal Service, and how do those staff numbers compare to staffing of those services last year?

Mrs LO PO': There were 26 people working in the HomeFund area in 1994-95 and this year there are 28. As everyone knows, the HomeFund Commissioner's Office was created as a separate entity under the auspices of the department. There is one senior executive service level four position, and that was held by Helen Bauer, who was seconded from the Premier's Department. This position has not been filled since 16 August. All salaried officers are employed under section 33, section 34 or section 38 of the Public Sector Management Act. Currently there are three temporary staff, who have been recruited from employment agencies by the commissioner's office on a needs basis. Currently the commissioner's office has one officer engaged on a fee-for-service basis who provides financial advice. The commissioner's office will continue to use extra resources on a needs basis. The Department of Consumer Affairs was contracted on a fee-for-service basis to undertake various personnel functions such as payroll and financial functions for the service. The number of personnel has increased by just two in the last year. Given that there was an extension of time of six months, which has now been extended to 12 months, it makes sense that there should be an extra two staff.

The Hon. PATRICIA FORSYTHE: Was the information you have just given me in relation to the HomeFund Advisory Service or the HomeFund Commissioner's Office?

Mrs LO PO': This is for the HomeFund Commissioner's Office.

The Hon. PATRICIA FORSYTHE: I return to my original question about the size of the HomeFund Advisory Service and the HomeFund Legal Service.

Mrs LO PO': The HomeFund Advisory Service, which is under the management of the Department of Consumer Affairs, was established to assist eligible borrowers to make an informed decision in relation to their options under the HomeFund restructuring scheme. A total of 23,173 borrowers were eligible to participate in the restructure. The HomeFund Advisory Service commenced operations in February last year, and it was staffed by 10 financial and five legal advisers. It presently has three financial advisers and one legal adviser.

The Hon. PATRICIA FORSYTHE: In relation to the same issue, you referred to 23,000 cases or inquiries. Under the heading operating expenses, could you advise what it costs to handle each case dealt with by the advisory service and the legal service? How does this compare with other forms of dispute resolution and counselling?

Mrs LO PO': Is that in relation to the advisory service or the commissioner's office?

The Hon. PATRICIA FORSYTHE: The advisory service and the legal service.

Mrs LO PO': The service is provided free of charge to borrowers and a telephone contact is through a toll-free line. The cost to the Government during 1994-95 was $871,582. The overall cost since the service began, for the 81 weeks to the end of August 1995, was $1,588,387. All costs are paid by Department of Consumer Affairs and reimbursed by the Home Purchase Assistance Authority, using funds provided from the Housing Reserve Fund.

[Time expired.]

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The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: I refer the Minister to page 280 of Budget Paper No. 3, which relates to the HomeFund Commissioner's Office. There are two things I would like to ask about the operating statement on that page. It would appear that during 1994-95 no money was budgeted for compensation to category C HomeFund borrowers and no compensation was paid, but it is estimated that 1995-96 category C HomeFund borrowers may receive $700,000. Last year the employee-related operating expenses were over $1 million, but this year they are about $646,000. Will the Minister explain why, given that expenditure on employee-related operating expenses, no decision was made about whether any applicant should receive any compensation?

Mr SILK: With reference to category C funding for 1994-95, there was no proposal in 1994-95 for a category C conciliation offer. A special report by the HomeFund Commissioner in relation to the category C conciliation offer was tabled in Parliament in August 1995. Funds were sought from the Treasury. The Treasurer approved funding of $700,000, which was subsequently allocated to the HomeFund Commissioner's Office budget for 1995-1996.

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: I ask a supplementary question. Will the Minister give any indication when that subvention may be paid out as compensation to category C HomeFund borrowers?

Mrs LO PO': An offer was made to 1,000 more people; an offer of $1,000 was made in August. I will check the take-up rate with Mr Silk in a moment, but after the $400 was given to category C there was a further offer of $1,000 to some other category C borrowers. I am sure Mr Silk will know the take-up rate.

Mr SILK: In regard to the take-up rate relating to the category C conciliation offer, as at today some 325 category C HomeFund borrowers have accepted, which is an acceptance rate of 62 per cent of those given the initial offer. The HomeFund Commissioner's Office anticipates that the round of offers to category C HomeFund borrowers will be concluded by no later than the end of November 1995.

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: Is it anticipated, therefore, that the maximum they will get will be $1,400 each?

Mr SILK: Category C HomeFund borrowers individually will receive only one offer of an amount of $1,000. They are not able to receive anything else but the $1,000 offered. It is a matter for HomeFund borrowers individually to consider whether they wish to take up that offer.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: I have similar questions to those asked by the Hon. Elisabeth Kirkby. I suppose we are concerned about what happens when the whole operation is finished. Should the HomeFund operation be closed off at the end of this 12-month period, or are there other people still seeking compensation or seeking redress outside the department, that is, going to court?

Mrs LO PO': The commissioner's office has had an extension of 12 months. But we all must remember that a number of people have a class action at the Federal level. How many are there?

Mr SILK: I do not have the exact figures with me, but a significant number of borrowers have a class action before the Federal Court.

Mrs LO PO': It would seem that although the HomeFund Commissioner's Office is destined to close within a year, people are going to be struggling in the court system for some time in future.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: They may have a need for help or advice.

Mrs LO PO': Once the commissioner's office is closed, it will be difficult to give them assistance. But they have chosen to go through the court system to get reparation.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: I note that the Department of Consumer Affairs has financial counselling services. I refer to page 269, subprogram 30.1.1, Information, line item grants and subsidies, financial counselling services. For 1994-95 the budget was $400,000, but the estimate for the current year is $815,000, which is more than a 100 per cent increase. I am not critical of that increase, but I wonder what benefits will flow from that funding increase. What additional services will be provided for that extra expenditure?

Mrs LO PO': This is one of our good news stories and I am happy to tell it. The Government has delivered on its election promise to substantially increase funds for financial counselling services. A record $813,192 will be allocated this year to 22 different financial counselling and community legal centres across the State, and a further $156,237 will be provided by the Financial Counselling Trust Fund, bringing the total allocation to about $970,000. There has never been funding of that dimension before. For the first time, the Credit Help Line service has been guaranteed funding as part of the triennial credit counselling program. The Government is committed to ensuring that the department's services are accessible to all the people of New South Wales, irrespective of geographical location. Consequently, there are no plans to reduce regional services.

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 276. I note that under the operating statement allocations is the line item for grants and subsidies, cooperative development. In 1992-93 the estimate for expenditure was $400,000, with the actual being $453,000, but for 1995-96 the estimate is $350,000. Can the Minister explain why the allocation to cooperative development has been reduced? I would believe that cooperative development was in fact in line with Labor Party policy.

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Mrs LO PO': In 1994-95 the expenditure was greater than the estimate due to the utilisation of previous years' retained funds, and outstanding payments for the development fund totalling $250,000 were accrued during the 1994-95 financial year, whereas those funds had not been previously accrued. So the accrual of that money, plus the allocation from the Government, results in more for cooperative development.

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: Are you suggesting that, although in previous years the sum allocated was $400,000, because in this budget you are allocating $350,000 you are giving more?

Mrs LO PO': No. Some $250,000 was accrued from previous years' funds. We are giving them $350,000 but they already have $250,000 to use for development. While we are on this subject might I say that this is a budget area that has been underutilised by previous governments. I think cooperative development is important, and I am very keen to look at the issue of worker cooperatives, which I believe is a great democratic process and one that is used extensively in Europe. I am keen to use development funds to determine whether we cannot pilot some worker cooperative programs.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: At page 271, under subprogram 30.1.2, Compliance, is a line item for legal aid and witness expenses. I note that the 1994-95 budget allocated $1.325 million for those services. For 1995-96 the budget is only $875,000. Does the Minister anticipate that the 1995 allocation will be sufficient? Does the Minister believe there will be less call for legal aid? I would have thought there would have been an increased call for that service.

Mrs LO PO': In 1994-95 the decrease was due mainly to the reclassification of legal work undertaken by the Crown Solicitor's Office to core activities, and hence not chargeable. There was also underexpenditure of the Commercial Tribunal sector relating to 85 or 86 cases which will be expended in 1995-96. The 1995-96 estimate reflects the completion of those cases.

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 271, program 30.1, Encourage Development and Observance of Fair Trading Principles and Standards. I note in outputs that the number of matters screened was 690, but the number of investigation matters accepted was only 200. In 1994-95 the number of matters screened was 674, of which 240 were accepted. Can the Minister explain to the Committee the criteria for matters being screened and then accepted? Can the Minister also explain why there would be a cut in real terms in product testing?

Mr GIVEN: If I could answer the question about the criteria for matters to be investigated. There is a process by which a whole range of criteria are taken into account. In summary, they relate to how serious the matter disadvantages the victims of the alleged conduct, particularly where the victim is a member of one of the disadvantaged consumer groups. If the amount of money involved is significant, a whole range of criteria of that sort are applied, including the prospect of successfully investigating the matter and getting an outcome. That will not necessarily be court action; it may well be seeking redress for particular victims, or in some other way bringing public notice to the matter, thereby acting as a deterrent to others who might engage in similar activity.

The reason for the difference in the figures really depends to some extent on the types of big matters that come our way in any particular year and what sort of focus we are placing on particular issues. For example, in the 1993-94 year we were looking at cases involving introduction agencies where unconscionable conduct was alleged involving disadvantaged people. Those investigations take considerable resources. When that happens, we focus resources on those types of matters. When those cases are completed we can then redirect resources to other serious cases in other areas. The second part of the question related to product tests.

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: Yes. I was asking about the cut in real terms related to expenses in the operating statement for product testing, dealt with at page 271 of the Budget Paper.

Mr GIVEN: The figure shown was an estimate for 1994-95 of $10,000. The actual expenditure was $12,000. For the current year the estimate is $10,000. Traditionally, the experience has been that round about $10,000 for that type of activity is required. In 1994-95 there was an unusual amount of product testing in a concerted effort to move against unsafe products, particularly in bargain stores. So we actually had a similar increase in expenditure.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: I have a general question about the Building Services Corporation. There have been a number of complaints about the lack of support and action on behalf of complainants to the corporation relating to homes built with serious quality problems, such as cracked walls and foundations requiring repair, which the owners should be compensated for. Have those complaints been dealt with adequately by the corporation?

Mrs LO PO': Before I hand over to Mr Mostyn I should say that one of the election promises of this Labor Government was to set up the Building Services Corporation inquiry. To be assisted by that inquiry were aggrieved consumers who felt their issues were not adequately addressed. The inquiry has been going for some time. It will report to me at the end of this year. My understanding is that the concerns of consumers who felt aggrieved and needed another government to look at their concerns are being well addressed. However, I will ask Mr Mostyn from the corporation to expand on that answer.

Page 2643

Mr MOSTYN: Last year we received just under 6,000 complaints from consumers. Some 1,500 of those complaints resulted in insurance claims being made on the corporation, which paid out just over $8.2 million in response to those claims. That number of claims was a record compared with previous years. This year there will be probably an even higher number of claims. I am aware that in the past the Builders Licensing Board and the Building Services Corporation had problems dealing with some complaints relating to dwellings construction, such as problems with foundations. Some of those problems did not manifest themselves for up to eight or nine years.

There was also the question of timing. The insurance scheme, which was governed by regulation, set certain limits on the times within which claims can be made. It also distinguishes between general house defects and major structural defects. All of those complications have led on occasions to claims for those types of problems, which, as I said earlier, do not manifest themselves for very long periods of time, leading to rejection of some of those claims or to fairly protracted battles between the consumer and the corporation to find a resolution to those problems. In fact, some of those cases are being looked into by the current inquiry.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: So the complainants have a second chance, so to speak?

Mr MOSTYN: They always have a second chance by way of appeal to the Commercial Tribunal against decisions of the Building Services Corporation. But a number of cases with those sorts of problems are being looked at by the inquiry.

The Hon. DOROTHY ISAKSEN: I refer to page 269 of Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, subprogram 30.1.1, and to the line item referring to the operating statement, in particular other operating expenses. What is the department doing to ensure businesses are aware of their obligations to consumers?

Mrs LO PO': The department recognises the need to build an informed and fair marketplace, and for this reason businesses have been a major target for important education on fair trading. The department has begun a three-stage business education package. Stage one will cost $90,000 and will be launched later this year. It is a video accompanied by notes and aims to educate traders on fair trading principles. Stage two, which will be developed in 1995-96, is a fair trading manual. Stage three, which will be developed in 1996-97, will be a series of seminars for business and industry associations. The business education package will initially be used by department staff when conducting business seminars, ensuring that the information provided is accurate, consistent and professionally presented. Next it will be marketed as a package to business and industry associations to use as part of their own training courses.

The department currently provides speakers for a range of training courses, and regional services staff conduct regular talks for local businesses. In the last financial year the department's talks have been attended by 5,000 people. To ensure that information provided at these talks is accurate and consistent, the department has developed a speakers kit as an internal resource for all staff speaking to the public. The information is regularly checked and updated as required. The department is actively promoting effective complaint handling on a general and specific trader basis as part of its advice and mediation-compliance operations. It is also moving to refocus its outreach operations in regional centres, where it does not have a physical presence, by undertaking visits to traders as part of the regular activities of visiting officers.

The Hon. ANN SYMONDS: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 269, subprogram 30.1.1, Information. How is the department educating consumers who are particularly vulnerable in the marketplace?

Mrs LO PO': The department recognises the need to build an informed and fair marketplace for the future. It has embarked on an active strategy to educate new consumers and consumers of the future through the schooling system. Young people and children have limited experience of the trading sector and need assistance to learn of their rights and obligations when making purchasing decisions. This year the department has been active in developing a major national project in cooperation with other State and Federal consumer affairs agencies as part of a national working party to develop a CD-ROM for students in years 5 and 6. This is a productive and cost-effective project with participating States sharing the cost and the workload. New South Wales will contribute $20,000 this financial year.

The department conducts regular teacher in-service courses to ensure that reasonable and responsible consumer messages reach our children. In the last year 230 teachers have attended these in-service courses. The department also targeted TAFE teachers in three key areas of study - business studies, foundation studies and community services - mailing out information about departmental publications which are appropriate to these courses to the 203 TAFE colleges. The department has also added captions to its two videos for schools - "Fair Go" and "Consumer Power" - to ensure that they are accessible to deaf students and to students from non-English speaking backgrounds, who may read English better than they understand spoken English.

The Hon. A. B. MANSON: My question relates to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 267, the line item referring to the operating statement, total expenses. What level of savings does the department expect to achieve as a result of the amalgamation of the Building Services Corporation and the Department of Consumer Affairs, and the Government's initiative for savings in corporate services activities?

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Mrs LO PO': The amalgamation of the Department of Consumer Affairs and the Building Services Corporation provides cohesion and economy in the delivery of fair trading programs for New South Wales. This is being achieved through the amalgamation and full integration of services provided by the Department of Consumer Affairs, the Office of Real Estate Services, the Registry of Cooperatives and the Building Services Corporation. The proposed inclusion of the Motor Vehicle Repair Industry Council is also being considered. During the first phase of the amalgamation, to be completed by 31 December this year, a single corporate services division is to be established for the new Department of Fair Trading. Significant savings are expected as a result of this phase of the amalgamation.

A ministerial steering committee was formed to develop appropriate strategies for the amalgamation. The first strategy was the development of a plan for the financial management system for the amalgamated association. This project is well on track following the engagement of Mr Col Brown, of Col Brown Consulting Proprietary Limited, who commenced the project on 5 September 1995. The second strategy was the recruitment of the Director, Corporate Services, who, with the incoming director-general, will finalise and implement the corporate services amalgamation for the new Department of Fair Trading. The advertisement for the position of Director of Corporate Services went to the press on Saturday, 9 September. The project management of corporate services, pending the position of director being filled, is being undertaken by Mr Colin Brown.

The Department of Consumer Affairs is an active participant in the Government's corporate services efficiency program and, consequently, savings in the magnitude required by the Government will at least be targeted for achievement as part of the amalgamation process. Following the recent costings of the corporate services activities for the Department of Consumer Affairs - as it currently stands, prior to the amalgamation and after benchmarking these activities with agencies of similar size and scope - it would appear that savings well in excess of the Government's requirement of 10 per cent could be readily achieved. We are very proud of this saving. There has been a benchmark of 10 per cent in agencies, and we are suggesting that ours will be greater than 10 per cent.

The Hon. DOROTHY ISAKSEN: I refer to page 267 of Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, the line item referring to the operating statement, other operating expenses. What action is the Department of Fair Trading taking in relation to the Government's guarantee of service initiatives.

Mrs LO PO': Prior to the decision to amalgamate the Department of Consumer Affairs and the Building Services Corporation as the Department of Fair Trading, each of these former administrations had in place extensive customer service initiatives which were regularly reviewed in accordance with customer needs and government policy. The former Department of Consumer Affairs had introduced a number of initiatives aimed at improving customer service. I will list a few of those initiatives. They include adopting a guarantee of service; introducing a comprehensive customer feedback system, "Your Opinion Counts"; investment in information technology systems in areas of advice and mediation; extensive competency-based training for advice and mediation staff and business registration staff; marketing training for program managers; accreditation under the Australian standards for the trade measurement branch; extending office hours; and providing the full range of services for the department's service centres located throughout the State.

With the formation of the Department of Fair Trading it is now necessary to review the customer service strategies to ensure that they are aligned with the mission and objectives of the new organisation. In this regard a working party comprising representatives of the former Department of Consumer Affairs and the Building Services Corporation has now been established to undertake this work. Initially the working party will concentrate on developing a revised guarantee of service statement for fair trading and a review of complaint-handling procedures as detailed in the Premier's memorandum No. 95-29.

The Hon. ANN SYMONDS: I refer you to the department's information program, which appears in Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, subprogram 30.1.1 on page 270. Under the line item referring to other departmental revenue - other, the actual receipts for the year totalled $1.95 million, while the estimate was only $50,000. Can you explain what these receipts relate to?

Mrs LO PO': Retained revenue is dissected into two areas: user charges and other departmental revenue. They are represented by main items in user charges revenue which total $2.13 million. Some of those are the sale of goods and transcripts, the Consumer Claims Tribunal and Commercial Tribunal fees, building disputes fees, business name search and information fees, administration fees, association fees, the recovery of costs and salaries and miscellaneous income. Other departmental revenue includes that from the Register of Encumbered Vehicles, which has an administration fee; the recoupment from home purchase assistance fees, which is fairly substantial at $1.78 million; interest on bank accounts; the Motor Dealers Compensation Fund; grants from other organisations; incentive grants; Telstra rebate; cash provision for leave; and miscellaneous fees. That revenue totals $4.1 million.

The increase in the 1994-95 user charges revenue compared with the estimate for that year is directly attributable to the extension of the operation
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of the HomeFund Commissioner's Office to a full 12 months of operation. The increase in the 1994-95 other departmental revenue compared with the estimate is made up of the following: a continuation of the HomeFund Advisory Service for the full financial year at $1.6 million; rebate through the use of British Telecom for managing the communications system, $130,000; interest received on retained savings, $310,000; funds received from property services contribution to fit out the new Tamworth office, $114,000; increase in REVs administration fee, $300,000; increase in cash received for acceptance for leave provisions, $50,000; and, last, increase in renewals and applications for the Motor Dealers Compensation Fund, $100,000.

The Hon. A. B. MANSON: My question relates to information technology. I refer to page 265 of Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, line item capital works and services. What proportion of the appropriation is related to information technology projects and what is the difference between the 1994-95 and 1995-96 information technology allocations?

Mrs LO PO': In 1994-95 the department's three major information technology projects commenced. They were the business registration imaging system, the business licence system and the client advisory system. In addition, significant advancements were made with office automation as well as computerised communications. In 1994-95 the amounts allocated to the above projects were $590,000 for the business registration imaging system, $1.128 million for the business licence system, $490,000 for the client advisory system, $407,000 for office automation, and $67,000 for computerised communications - a total of $2.68 million.

For 1995-96 the capital funding allocation is $529,000 for maintenance support and enhancement of the business licence system, $199,000 for data conversion and final contract payments for the development of the business registration imaging system, and $220,000 for office automation - a total of $948,000. No further allocation has been made for a client advisory system. No new projects have been allocated for funding in 1995-96. As part of the establishment of the new Department of Fair Trading, work has commenced on the amalgamation of the information technology sections of the Department of Consumer Affairs, the Building Services Corporation and the Office of Real Estate Services. An outcome of this process will be the development of an information technology strategic and tactical plan for the new department. These plans will identify the information technology initiatives necessary to support the business directions of the new department. Once that process is completed, business cases for specific projects will be developed and funding bids will be made to Treasury.

The Hon. DOROTHY ISAKSEN: I refer the Minister to page 271 of the Budget Estimates, and the compliance subprogram 30.1.2. What steps has the department taken to educate and protect Aboriginal consumers, particularly those in the more remote rural areas of the State?

Mrs LO PO': I thank the honourable member for a very important question. The department focuses largely on Aboriginal consumers. Very little research and empirical data existed on why Aboriginal consumers were not using the department's services, and we had to rectify that situation. Anecdotal evidence indicated that in more remote rural areas of the State Aboriginal consumers were seriously disadvantaged. Therefore, a project team was established which included an Aboriginal researcher who travelled the State and documented the experiences of Aboriginal consumers. The report of the findings, known as "Grin and Bear It", was released in December 1994. Also identified through community consultation was the need for workshops through which Aboriginal consumers could learn their rights and responsibilities as consumers and the proper language to use in exercising those rights. Workshops, conducted as train the trainer exercises involving key community representatives trained to act as referral points, have commenced and have been well received by the Aboriginal community.

Another issue identified in the report was the Aboriginal system of purchasing goods and services on credit, commonly known as "book up". This system basically enables Aborigines to book up groceries and alcohol with the service provider and to arrange to pay the account at a later date. The department's western regional general manager and an investigator made further inquiries throughout the west of the State and found that the system of booking up was rife. Although the system is an historically accepted form of doing business, it is clearly open to abuse by both the consumer and the service provider. A good number of service providers hold Aborigines' bankbooks or key cards as security until the accounts are paid. In one instance the service provider held the pin number as well, which allowed him complete control over the income of the Aboriginal.

The department has responded to this problem by establishing the western region focus group, comprising representatives of the Department of Consumer Affairs, the regional coordination management group, the Police Service, the Department of Community Services, the Department of Juvenile Justice, the Premier's Department as well as the federal departments of social security and employment, education and training. The department will be guided by the recommendations made by this group, and will work together using all available means to address the problems encountered by Aboriginal consumers. I thank the honourable member for her question as it is an important issue which bears watching closely.

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The Hon. A. B. MANSON: My question relates to the safe toy task force, and I refer to the compliance subprogram 30.1.2 on page 271 of Budget Paper No. 3 and the operating expenses line item. What action has the department taken to ensure that dangerous toys will not be sold in the Christmas sales this year?

Mrs LO PO': I thank the member for the question, which must arise every year with every consumer affairs Minister. The department recently concluded its most extensive investigation into the sales of children's toys, and initially found a high level of non-compliance with product safety regulations. The survey, conducted in three parts, began before Christmas 1994 when the inspection of 442 outlets around New South Wales revealed that 64 retailers were selling banned or unsafe goods. The survey targeted bargain basement-type stores and markets, and survey results showed that toys for young children containing small parts were the principal cause for concern. Poor quality wooden products were major offenders, and other products which did not comply with safety standards are listed as follows: swim rings and underwater toys without the required warnings; projectile toys which were capable of firing improvised projectiles with dangerous force; liquid-filled toys which did not have the test certificates available clarifying the purity of the liquid; Santa bags with no ventilation perforations; elastic luggage straps without necessary precautionary labels; and banned home exercise devices. The list goes on. A total of 118 breaches of regulations were detected, and retailers were advised of their obligations under the legislation.

[Time expired.]

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: I take the Minister back to my initial question on Budget Paper No. 3, page 266, regarding total average staffing. On the questions regarding the Building Services Corporation, the Minister said that the staffing number decreased. What sections of the Building Services Corporation will be cut to achieve the rationalisation to which the Minister referred, and how will the staff reductions be effected? What functions of the BSC will be rationalised, and how will these functions be carried out under the restructure?

Mrs LO PO': I have said that we are certainly amalgamating all of these departments. I will hand the question over to Mr Mostyn, who is the expert at the BSC.

Mr MOSTYN: As the Minister indicated earlier, the amalgamation of the BSC and the Department of Consumer Affairs is expected to achieve considerable savings in what might be called overhead costs, particularly in corporate services, where a figure of 10 per cent or more has been mentioned. I believe that this will be the prime area of staff saving. In time, I suspect that savings will be made in other areas, such as compliance; that is, the BSC compliance area will be amalgamated with that of the Department of Consumer Affairs. It is too early at this stage to anticipate what savings might flow from those aspects of the amalgamation.

Mrs LO PO': As members know, the Department of Consumer Affairs is being extensively restructured and will be renamed the Department of Fair Trading, which will be the consumer protection agency. The roles and functions of the various associated tribunals are also being reviewed. A major review is being conducted into not only the Department of Consumer Affairs, the Building Services Corporation and the Office of Real Estate Services, but also the tribunals. We have spoken to the Motor Vehicle Repair Industry Council, which is very concerned about being included in the amalgamation. To that end, I have told the council that it needs to present a strong case why it should stand outside the new organisation. We have received four submissions from that organisation outlining its concerns about being amalgamated.

The Department of Consumer Affairs has 584 staff in 22 different locations; the cooperatives have 29 staff in one location; the Office of Real Estate Services has 202 staff in two locations; the Building Services Corporation has 245 staff in 12 locations; and the Motor Vehicle Repair Industry Council has 35 staff in one location. All up, this involves 1,095 staff. Committee members can understand that with the number of people involved in the amalgamation, and the number of locations involved, it is not a small issue. We are trying to ensure that it is done by the end of the year. The budgets of these departments will total $122 million. Therefore, the first phase of the amalgamation, forming a single corporate service, is under way and is intended to be completed by the end of this year. The amalgamation will be completed after that.

I assure the Committee that from the outset we have taken the view that the amalgamation should be conducted in the most painless way possible. To that end, we have included the unions from day one. In the past we have seen similar amalgamations in which unions were involved at a much later stage. We are pleased to inform the Committee that the unions are involved in the process and they are on the restructuring committee to ensure that the process operates with accord. The staff are also involved. A process of management change is also in place, and we have issue teams. Therefore, the amalgamation is going ahead and people know what is happening, and they are very keen to participate. A suggestion box was provided by the acting director-general to allow staff to comment on how they saw the shape of the amalgamation, and 122 staffers participated in providing suggestions on how they saw the amalgamation taking place. This is not an amalgamation from the top down - it is very much from the bottom up. People are participating at every level in a thoroughly consultative and
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collaborative process. People in all areas of this amalgamation, within all departments - although not initially thrilled about it because of the handling of this sensitive matter - will be fairly pleased with the outcome. We have only to settle what will happen to the Motor Vehicle Repair Industry Council, and we will probably achieve total commitment in this regard.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: The Minister sounds excited about the amalgamation, and I commend her for that. She referred to the Motor Vehicle Repair Industry Council. Can she advise where this body's income is shown in the budget papers?

Mrs LO PO': It is off budget.

The Hon. HELEN SHAM-HO: What funding provisions have been made for the staff of the Motor Vehicle Repair Industry Council?

Mrs LO PO': The staff of the council are officers of the Department of Consumer Affairs. One of the first recommendations in the submissions from the Motor Vehicle Repair Industry Council is that it would like to employ its own staff. It is well recognised that the officers who work in that council are officers of the Department of Consumer Affairs. The council generates roughly $2 million by picking up licences from various groups. I have an annual report from that council with me. The council employs between 30 and 35 staff. No decision has been made in this regard, which I must keep emphasising. The Motor Vehicle Repair Industry Council is not happy - it would not be true to say otherwise - to be amalgamating, and I have asked the council to put up a strong case regarding why it should stand outside the new Department of Fair Trading and the outcome is very much dependent on what is in that submission. The council staff are employed with money generated by the council, and whether the council will come under the umbrella of the new department is yet to be decided.

The Hon. PATRICIA FORSYTHE: A little while ago the Minister answered a question from the Hon. A. B. Manson relating to consultants, and she referred to Col Brown undertaking a consultancy as head of corporate services until a permanent head is appointed. How much will that consultancy cost the Building Services Corporation?

Mrs LO PO': As I do not have the papers with me I will take that question on notice.

The Hon. PATRICIA FORSYTHE: What other consultants have been engaged in the past seven months by the Minister's department, and what has been the cost and purposes of those consultancies?

Ms COOMBS: I have a breakdown of the consultancies divided into those over $30,000 and those under $30,000, and I shall give you the totals and the splits of what has been spent over the past year.

[Time expired.]

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: I refer the Minister to page 267 of Budget Paper No. 3, Department of Consumer Affairs, Financial Summary. I have two questions. Under the line item for operating statement the amount for expenses for maintenance has doubled. It was $300,000 in 1994-95 but your estimate is that it is likely to be about $679,000. What type of maintenance is included in that amount? Under retained revenue, other departmental revenue was about $4 million in 1994-95 and the estimate is a little more than $2 million, a considerable increase on the original estimate for 1994-95. Can you explain other departmental revenue?

Mrs LO PO': The increase in maintenance reflects maintenance contracts on computer hardware and software used to operate financial and human resource packages which are due for renewal in 1995-96. These contracts are renewed on a three-yearly basis. Decisions were made during the 1994-95 financial year to relocate three metropolitan service centres and one country service centre. Consumer Affairs also moved out of a store at Parramatta and out of approximately 240 square metres of the Minister's office. I do not know these 240 square metres. I have never met them; they were gone before I arrived. The lease and costs of the Broken Hill office were taken over by the Department of Business and Regional Development. That had the effect of reducing the amount of cyclical maintenance required, thereby reducing the maintenance costs during the year. An invoice from the maintenance of the Banyan network due to an error in the company's billing system was not received before the end of the year. Therefore, $100,000 to be paid in 1994-95 will not be paid until 1995-96, as well as an amount due for 1995-96 - a total of $200,000 for the year. We were victims of a billing system that failed.

The second part of the question related to other departmental revenue. The estimated decrease is due to the winding down of the HomeFund Advisory Service, including the HomeFund counselling service and the HomeFund Legal Service which is funded from the Home Purchase Assistance Authority. The 1994-95 income is $2.1 million, and estimated 1995-96 income is expected to be $660,000, which is a decrease of $1.4 million. One-off moneys for fitouts from the Property Services Group received in 1994-95 will not be repeated in 1995-96, so there is a decrease of $115,000. The Telecom rebate is not expected to be large due to the withdrawal of British Telecom from a telecommunications agreement, and that is another decrease of $85,000. Interest received is expected to be less due to the decrease in the bank balance, which is another $160,000. The decrease in funds received into the motor dealers compensation fund due to write-off action being taken in regard to aged debtors is $100,000 and the not knowns - special projects, Aboriginal consumer projects, community education programs and job skills - will continue during 1995-96, which will mean a decrease of $100,000.

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Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: I have two questions. The first relates to the Motor Vehicle Repair Industry Council and the reference at page 271 to deterring unfair trading practices, motor vehicle warranty disputes and so on. Have you had any reports or investigations concerning a new racket of importing late model second-hand Japanese cars into Australia and then using local smashed car body production identification plates to give the false impression that they are Australian built, have Australian approval and meet Australian safety standards?

Mrs LO PO': I shall take that question on notice, because it is of concern to me and I do not have anyone here from the Motor Vehicle Repair Industry Council.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: My second question is simply to assist other Committee members. I ask Ms Coombs to give her reply in relation to consultants engaged in the past seven months.

Ms COOMBS: I have found further details since I began my earlier response. I shall begin with consultants employed on changed management for the departments. It is a large task to amalgamate those agencies into one body which is concerned with consumer protection and advocacy, and to establish a fair trading place in which both consumers and traders are fairly looked after. With a staff of 1,095 in 38 locations it is not easy. The Minister has taken action and some of this work preceded my acting appointment. The necessary work has been put in place and two consultants have been involved with that. The first one was Mr Vishnu Prasad, who was appointed to report to the ministerial steering committee established to manage the amalgamation process. His job was to identify options for how best to proceed with the amalgamation process. His work has been completed and the report received. The report is now being reviewed and acted upon by the committee, and that has been since my appointment.

We are establishing a detailed implementation plan for the amalgamation to occur. To get to the nub of the matter, the cost of the consultancy was $18,550 shared equally between the Department of Consumer Affairs, the Building Services Corporation and the Office of Real Estate Services. In real terms that means only $6,183.34 has been sourced from the Consolidated Fund. A second consultancy has been established to look at the financial management and corporate services support area. Mr Colin Brown of Col Brown Consulting Proprietary Limited commenced work on 5 September 1995 to prepare a financial management system for the amalgamated organisation. He is also undertaking a project management role in integrating the department's corporate services.

In addition, though it is not a consultancy in the technical sense, two officers have been seconded from technical and further education to assist the changed management process. One of them is full time and the other is part time. To return to the whole issue of consultants generally, as I said, we have broken the consultants down to those over $30,000, those under $30,000, and the total. Treasury has issued firm guidelines and memoranda about how consultants are to be used. In essence, the Government has made a commitment to reduce the use of consultants with a target of reducing this category of expenditure by 25 per cent for each agency, measured against the agency's average expenditure over the preceding three years.

The Department of Fair Trading and the other agencies, in particular Consumer Affairs, have in place a policy on the use of consultants which specifies that they will be used only when it is not cost-effective for a service to be provided within the department, when it is necessary to overcome urgent workloads - and that most certainly does occur - and when expertise is not available within the department or an independent assessment of departmental activities is required, so we can get that independent and outside perspective. The information that I shall give includes cooperatives. We had a total number of 11 consultants in the over $30,000 group and the total number of projects was 22. At some stage I worked out that that was roughly the average figure. The total number of consultancies under $30,000 was 31, the total number of projects was 36 and the total amount was $247,954.50. To go back to consultancies over $30,000, the total amount was $2,200,009.02. I did have a split that would be of interest. The total number of consultants -

[Time expired.]

The Hon. DOROTHY ISAKSEN: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, page 269, employee-related operating expenses. How many staff are involved in media and public relations activity, and how does that conform with the Government's policy in this area?

Mrs LO PO': There are only two officers within the department whose primary functions involve community education activities through the preparation of media releases, news stories and publications relating to departmental services and programs. While a further nine officers within the marketing and education branch are involved from time to time in the preparation of publications and promotional activities, their primary focus is the development and delivery of consumer education programs, strategic marketing plans and the provision of support services to the department's managers and regional officers. These activities are interlinked with the use of social marketing techniques that provide information and education resources for immediate purposes as well as long-term social change. The branch's annual budget of approximately $1 million represents a fraction of the department's overall expenditure - 1.7 per cent of personnel and 2 per cent of the total budget for operating expenses.

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I am sure that all members will agree that for a consumer protection agency to be successful it must be able to get important messages to the public via the media. This is particularly crucial for matters of consumer safety, as well as warnings relating to unfair trading practices. The resources that have been provided to support this role are
appropriate. I will be reviewing this situation during the restructuring that will occur as a consequence of the establishment of the new Department of Fair Trading.

The Committee proceeded to deliberate on the recommendation of the vote.